LaCl Reactor

Long day and night so I didn't test tonight. I ran 15/3:30 for about 12 hours today. Will test in the morning. Set the doser to 15/7:20 .... Heading to bed as I think I may be getting a cold; haven't had one in YEARS!

Have a good week guys!
 
Your participation is not only welcome, but appreciated here. As I said in the past. I feel that your intentions are in the right place. We may just have read you wrong in the past. I promise not to read your posts with a bias ;)

I'm not too convinced that the LaCl3 precip is breaking down. From what I've read, it takes pretty extreme temperatures. I have not yet found anything on PH affects. But In any case, I would imagine that it would take a very severe anoxic condition to cause any form of reaction. And if it ever got that bad, you would have floating fish long before that.

Terri has a few unique issues that I cannot put a finger on yet.

1) Drastically varying ranges in phosphate readings: I speculate that it is probably a combination of things here. She does ritual water changes. She is a VERY hands on person in the tank. She seems to get inconsistent readings on her Hanna meter. None of which I fault her for. I can only just make a comparison against myself. I RARELY do water changes (6 months or so). I rarely have my hands in my tank these days (damn kids). And although Hanna's are pretty inconsistent, my readings are always pretty close (luck of the draw?)

2) Terri's reactor design is similar to mine, but is different. That said, I like how she used a sediment filter

3) Last I read, there was some kind of unexplainable equipment malfunction that wasn't allowing the reactor to work properly (stuff happens).

Not picking on your Terri!

Slief,

What your dosage rate again? How much over how long?

I also agree that phosphates at her level should not cause any major issues. I suspect that bleaching is from something else.


As for me. Since I have moved and moved over to a new tank, I have yet to take any readings or reintroduce any dosing. I will be checking my numbers in the next month or so. There is no sense adding anything back in until its needed IMO. That said, my trusty LaCl3 reactor will the first thing to go back online as soon as my phosphates are high. I do not like what GFO does to my tanks.


I've followed this thread daily since it was started and I've refrained from participating as it seems I have offended people here if my train of thought runs against the concept of the LaCl reactor or the way it's being used. Please don't take offense to my interjection here.

I can't help but wonder if the precipitant is making past your filter floss and or your filter socks and breaking back down into PO4 in your tank. If that is the case, you are kind of chasing ghosts with the reactor. You really need to export that precipitant so it doesn't break down and release the PO4 back into the water column.

From everything I've read, changing filter floss or socks regularly is not something you guys are doing. If it were me, I'd be changing that stuff every week or more. I'd be watching the socks daily and at the slightest sign of them backing up, I would swap them. On the other hand, at the rate you guys dose, the percipitant build up would be slow enough that it would break down long before your socks would back up. As such, my guess is that a good percentage of what precipitates simply breaks down and releases some of the PO4 back into your system.

When I dose LaCl, depending on my PO4 readings, I can clog a 10 micron sock in a matter of 60 minutes as it backs up and will overflow making it very obvious that it needs to be changed. With filter floss, there comes a point where it cannot hold anymore precipitant and when it hits that point, one of two things will happen. It will either backup to the point where nothing will pass through it or it will back up and the precipitant and excess LaCl will pass around it. If that occurs, your PO4 levels will rise as the precipitant breaks down and releases the PO4 back into the water and it will drop as more LaCl is introduced creating a vicious cycle.

I feed heavily every day and don't have those kinds of PO4 fluctuations ever. My Then again, I don't test that often nor do I dose the LaCl daily. I test my PO4 levels when I start to see algae that I don't normally see as well as before and after LaCl treatment. I will also test for a couple subsequent days after the LaCl treatment during which time I don't really see any fluctuations in my PO4 levels. I test using a Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker.

Another comment here.

Terri,
You mentioned your SPS looking weird or bleached. With the levels your PO4 was at and for such a short amount of time, I'd be really surprised that PO4 levels were the root cause of your issue with regards to what you saw with the SPS. It could be precipitant causing it or something else completely unrelated but I don't think it would be from a day or two, let alone a week of slightly elevate PO4 levels. I've seen SPS tanks with much much higher PO4 levels and the corals had no issues at all.

So again, I hope you don't take offense to my comments. I've been doing this long enough to know a thing or two and as such, I am only trying to help.

By they way, I hope you are feeling better!
 
11/3 .1683 15/3:30 then after 12 hours, 15/7:20
11/4 .1287 Going to keep it at 7:20 to see how that works :0)

Well said Insomniac ;0) I agree with everything you said so didn't think you were picking on me :0) Definitely a hands on reefer...for better or worse. Getting a cold or sinus so feeling a little rough :( Will keep you all posted.
 
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No change in dosing?

I've followed this thread daily since it was started and I've refrained from participating as it seems I have offended people here if my train of thought runs against the concept of the LaCl reactor or the way it's being used. Please don't take offense to my interjection here.

I can't help but wonder if the precipitant is making past your filter floss and or your filter socks and breaking back down into PO4 in your tank. If that is the case, you are kind of chasing ghosts with the reactor. You really need to export that precipitant so it doesn't break down and release the PO4 back into the water column.

From everything I've read, changing filter floss or socks regularly is not something you guys are doing. If it were me, I'd be changing that stuff every week or more. I'd be watching the socks daily and at the slightest sign of them backing up, I would swap them. On the other hand, at the rate you guys dose, the percipitant build up would be slow enough that it would break down long before your socks would back up. As such, my guess is that a good percentage of what precipitates simply breaks down and releases some of the PO4 back into your system.

When I dose LaCl, depending on my PO4 readings, I can clog a 10 micron sock in a matter of 60 minutes as it backs up and will overflow making it very obvious that it needs to be changed. With filter floss, there comes a point where it cannot hold anymore precipitant and when it hits that point, one of two things will happen. It will either backup to the point where nothing will pass through it or it will back up and the precipitant and excess LaCl will pass around it. If that occurs, your PO4 levels will rise as the precipitant breaks down and releases the PO4 back into the water and it will drop as more LaCl is introduced creating a vicious cycle.

I feed heavily every day and don't have those kinds of PO4 fluctuations ever. My Then again, I don't test that often nor do I dose the LaCl daily. I test my PO4 levels when I start to see algae that I don't normally see as well as before and after LaCl treatment. I will also test for a couple subsequent days after the LaCl treatment during which time I don't really see any fluctuations in my PO4 levels. I test using a Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker.

Another comment here.

Terri,
You mentioned your SPS looking weird or bleached. With the levels your PO4 was at and for such a short amount of time, I'd be really surprised that PO4 levels were the root cause of your issue with regards to what you saw with the SPS. It could be precipitant causing it or something else completely unrelated but I don't think it would be from a day or two, let alone a week of slightly elevate PO4 levels. I've seen SPS tanks with much much higher PO4 levels and the corals had no issues at all.

So again, I hope you don't take offense to my comments. I've been doing this long enough to know a thing or two and as such, I am only trying to help.

By they way, I hope you are feeling better!

11/3 .1683 15/3:30 then after 12 hours, 15/7:20
11/4 .1287
 
Your participation is not only welcome, but appreciated here. As I said in the past. I feel that your intentions are in the right place. We may just have read you wrong in the past. I promise not to read your posts with a bias ;)


Slief,

What your dosage rate again? How much over how long?

I also agree that phosphates at her level should not cause any major issues. I suspect that bleaching is from something else.


As for me. Since I have moved and moved over to a new tank, I have yet to take any readings or reintroduce any dosing. I will be checking my numbers in the next month or so. There is no sense adding anything back in until its needed IMO. That said, my trusty LaCl3 reactor will the first thing to go back online as soon as my phosphates are high. I do not like what GFO does to my tanks.

I am not dosing through a reactor. My water volume is about 580 gallons total.

As I said, I rarely check my PO4 except when I start seeing nuisance algae. My last elevated PO4 testing resulted in a very high reading of .30. This was a couple weeks ago after I had a disaster in my tank. My son and I got into it and a half of gallon of bleach was dropped into my tank. I lost all but one fish yet managed to save all my coral and live rock. I had to do some pretty major water changes as you could imagine but the tank is 100 back to normal and I am back to my normal fish stock levels. A couple weeks after the incident, I started noticing hair algae which prompted my testing and produced the results of .30 PO4.

For that level of PO4, I dosed 10ml of LaCl (Sea Klear) mixed in 1 Liter of RODI. I use an IV bag filled to the 1 Liter mark and add the 10ml of LaCl to the IV bag. I swap one of my 200 micron socks out for a 10 micron sock and drip directly into the 10 micron sock at a rate of 1 drop of the mixture per second. It's more like 1 drop per second and a half. At that rate, it takes about 7 hours and 3 to 4 10 micron socks to complete the dosing. The first couple socks clog up quick but as the PO4 level drops, the socks last longer. That dose will reduce PO4 in a 580G system by about .20 which brought me down to a PO4 reading of .10 from .30.

At .10 PO4, I dose 5ml LaCl in 1 liter of RODI (same drip rate and same process) to bring it down to .04 which is what I did this weekend. That is my typical maintenance dose which I only do when my PO4 levels start contributing to nuisance algae. I've been using that method/dose for the last few years but only do it every several months or on an as needed basis. I was actually at .12 when I did the 5ml dose this weekend and got my PO4 level down to .04 which is about where I like to be. I will also test my PO4 during the dosing to make sure I don't reduce it too much.

There is a line of thinking that reducing your PO4 to fast can cause issues. If that is the case, I have never seen an issue. I think those that have an issue with livestock after LaCl treatment did something wrong such as using too much LaCl or not using filter socks or not changing them fast enough and allowing them to overflow. In most instances, those that have an issue also experience cloudiness. For me, I've never had any cloudiness, let alone a dead fish or unhappy coral as a result of my dosing practices. Then again, I am very meticulous in my method, LaCl dose and I also drip the LaCl in a well diluted solution at a very slow rate. I also have very good safe guards to insure that no LaCl or precipitate makes it back into my system.
 
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Thanks for the info. The reason why I asked was because I was assuming that you were dosing at a much faster rate than I do with the reactor. For the most part, it looks like you do.

It's all relative to water volume, but for the most part, I rarely see my PO4 numbers drop more than say .01-.03 in a weeks time. 2 things factor into this for me. Clog rates would naturally be much slower(for me). And since I use floss, there is a much more surface area (inconsistent mind you) to clog.

Have you ever noticed any issues with such a large drop in PO4? I've read elsewhere where others have seen SPS RTN and/or bleaching issues when treating PO4 rapidly. I have yet to put much weight in this. Im the kind of person that needs to see it first hand, or at least believe that it happened in a pretty consistent/controlled environment.

I am not dosing through a reactor. My water volume is about 580 gallons total.

As I said, I rarely check my PO4 except when I start seeing nuisance algae. My last elevated PO4 testing resulted in a very high reading of .30. This was a couple weeks ago after I had a disaster in my tank. My son and I got into it and a half of gallon of bleach was dropped into my tank. I lost all but one fish yet managed to save all my coral and live rock. I had to do some pretty major water changes as you could imagine but the tank is 100 back to normal and I am back to my normal fish stock levels. A couple weeks after the incident, I started noticing hair algae which prompted my testing and produced the results of .30 PO4.

For that level of PO4, I dosed 10ml of LaCl (Sea Klear) mixed in 1 Liter of RODI. I use an IV bag filled to the 1 Liter mark and add the 10ml of LaCl to the IV bag. I swap one of my 200 micron socks out for a 10 micron sock and drip directly into the 10 micron sock at a rate of 1 drop of the mixture per second. It's more like 1 drop per second and a half. At that rate, it takes about 7 hours and 3 to 4 10 micron socks to complete the dosing. The first couple socks clog up quick but as the PO4 level drops, the socks last longer. That dose will reduce PO4 in a 580G system by about .20 which brought me down to a PO4 reading of .10 from .30.

At .10 PO4, I dose 5ml LaCl in 1 liter of RODI (same drip rate and same process) to bring it down to .04 which is what I did this weekend. That is my typical maintenance dose which I only do when my PO4 levels start contributing to nuisance algae. I was actually at .12 when I did the 5ml dose this weekend and got my PO4 level down to .04 which is about where I like to be.
 
I can't help but wonder if the precipitant is making past your filter floss and or your filter socks and breaking back down into PO4 in your tank. If that is the case, you are kind of chasing ghosts with the reactor. You really need to export that precipitant so it doesn't break down and release the PO4 back into the water column {snip} at the rate you guys dose, the percipitant build up would be slow enough that it would break down long before your socks would back up. As such, my guess is that a good percentage of what precipitates simply breaks down and releases some of the PO4 back into your system.

First of all, sorry to hear about the problems you've had lately, and I hope you've gotten things under control and on the road to recovery, tank-wise. As a parent, having to deal with a situation like that with one of your kids is heart-breaking.

If I remember correctly, in the original thread about LC that is referenced on the first page of this thread, some pretty knowledgeable chemistry folks stated that the precipate should not break down in an aquarium environment. Not that I would want it building up, but it doesn't sound likely to release the phosphates back into the water column.
 
Thanks for the info. The reason why I asked was because I was assuming that you were dosing at a much faster rate than I do with the reactor. For the most part, it looks like you do.

It's all relative to water volume, but for the most part, I rarely see my PO4 numbers drop more than say .01-.03 in a weeks time. 2 things factor into this for me. Clog rates would naturally be much slower(for me). And since I use floss, there is a much more surface area (inconsistent mind you) to clog.

Have you ever noticed any issues with such a large drop in PO4? I've read elsewhere where others have seen SPS RTN and/or bleaching issues when treating PO4 rapidly. I have yet to put much weight in this. Im the kind of person that needs to see it first hand, or at least believe that it happened in a pretty consistent/controlled environment.

As I said, I have not noticed any ill effects of dropping my PO4 that quick and I will also note that I am dosing with a target PO4 level in mind and achieving that goal without any issues. While I have only dropped it that much in a single dose a couple times over the years, I've never noticed any issues with any of my soft corals, LPS or fish. I can't help but wonder if those that did have issues didn't use the sock method or didn't use a fine enough sock or worse, overdosed LaCl. Since corals are filter feeders, any precipitant in the water column could impact the corals negatively. As such, I would not be surprised that the above scenarios could cause bleaching or worse. I know that for the most part, those who lost fish during an LaCl treatment had one thing in common which was cloudy water. That in and of itself tells me they either dosed the LaCl too fast, or over dosed LaCl or didn't use the 10 micron socks or didn't change them out. If LaCl is used properly, there is no reason to have cloudy water and for the record, I've never experienced cloudy water from my use of LaCl.

I look at it this way. We have no way of knowing the water quality that our live stock comes from. When we acclimate them to our tanks water we do so over the course of an hour or two and in most cases, the water chemistry can be completely different. When I introduce new fish or corals, I can always assume that my water quality is better than what the livestock is coming from and my casualty rate for new inhabitants is extremely low. Most fish stores and wholesalers don't test for or worry about PO4 levels. As such, I'd bet that most sources have elevated levels of PO4 and it's certainly not something that we even give a second thought to when we introduce new livestock to our tanks. As such, I have a hard time believing that dropping the PO4 level too much is that much of a factor. That or maybe the 7 hours that I use to do it in is slow enough. For kicks and giggles, next time I bring a fish or coral home from my buddies LFS, I might just have to test their water for PO4 just to confirm my suspicion. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it was .30 or higher. I know my friend Jims who brings me fish from time to time has to have PO4 levels that are off the charts high. I know that just from looking at his QT systems.




First of all, sorry to hear about the problems you've had lately, and I hope you've gotten things under control and on the road to recovery, tank-wise. As a parent, having to deal with a situation like that with one of your kids is heart-breaking.

If I remember correctly, in the original thread about LC that is referenced on the first page of this thread, some pretty knowledgeable chemistry folks stated that the precipate should not break down in an aquarium environment. Not that I would want it building up, but it doesn't sound likely to release the phosphates back into the water column.

Thanks for the kind words. Kids can be a nightmare but things are back on track with him and the tank. Everything I did to haunt my parents came back to haunt me 10 fold. Something as a parent I was very ill prepared to deal with. Fortunately for my tank, I was very fortunate to have hundreds of gallons of water on hand and cases of salt. I was also fortunate that my LFS was only a call and 5 minutes away with plenty of Amquel and NovAqua.

It could have been a total loss and instead I was able to get my tank back on track very quickly and avoid loosing anything other than the fish. I've always been well prepared for virtually anything that could go wrong with my tank and keep spare pumps, Apex controllers and lots of other items on hand for worst case scenarios. This is one I never could have dreamed of yet I was a heck of a lot more prepared than I could have imagined. By all rights, it could have easily have been a complete loss of a 10 year old reef. It's been 10 years now since my last overhaul and fortunately, everything is back to normal. I feel very lucky. My son should too as I was ready to kill him (figuratively speaking). Instead I called the police to let them deal with him so I could focus on my tank. Hopefully he has learned a lesson and is wiser as a result. I know I always learned the hard way by learning from my mistakes and I don't think the apple fell far from the tree. I documented the incident and my process for saving the tank in my build thread as well as in the Reef Chemistry section here. If you are morbidly curious about the details (which I would be), feel free to check out my build thread or the other thread I started. I made sure to document it in case others faced a similar scenario.

Back on topic.. I used that thread you mentioned as the basis for my LaCl dosing method and ratios. While the precipitant may be said to not break down, I'm not sure I totally agree. The precipitant in my mind (and I could be wrong) is nothing more than solidified PO4. As such, I would have a hard time believing that it won't break back down at some point but regardless, it should not be in the tank. To me, it would be very similar to PO4 that is embedded in the rocks and substrate. At some point it leaches back out into the water. The one thing that was very consistant in that thread was the use of the 10 micron socks to catch and export the precipitant. The protein skimmer will help remove most of it assuming it's a good skimmer and assuming all the LaCl effluent is run through it but it's not going to catch all of it which is why I am a firm believer in the 10 micron sock.

At the very least, the precipitant is small enough to remain or become easily suspended in the water column and it's also been known to impact the health of the fish. I know it's been know to kill tangs but I'm also sure the precipitant isn't good for the other tank inhabitants as well. Either way, it is something that really should be captured and exported before it makes its way into the system. If it isn't, it will build up over time which can't possibly be good. Hopefully the filter floss and other methods (media filters, socks and skimmers) employed with the reactors are removing it completely.

You LaCl reactor guys are pioneers. It's a big gray area as nothing has really been documented over the long term to really know what the long term impacts are. So far, it certainly seems like the concept works well and it's applaudable for those who dare to go there. For me, I prefer my method as it's very simple and somewhat fool proof. It also doesn't require my constant attention let alone futzing with it to get it dialed in. Being that I am not a maintenance kind of guy, I'd go nuts if I had to continually chase a magic PO4 level. That is not to say that down the line I wouldn't consider such a build. I am in fact a gadget guy and I do like reactors so if I ever really felt I could benefit from one, I'd be all over it.

In my case, I could care less about my PO4 levels as long as my tank is healthy which it pretty much always is in spite of my occasional elevated PO4 levels. If I start seeing some nuisance algae, I know it's time to check my PO4. Other than that, I use good GFO and 0 TDS RODI water for top offs and automated water changes. As such, I've never had any issues short of the very rare algae bloom which I can always rectify quickly.

Having said that, I did just stock up on a bunch of new Hanna ULR test regents so I will be testing my PO4 levels much more often or at least monthly. Ugh, I can't believe I am saying that. I really hate testing my water. In all honesty, my water quality is always perfect with the rare exception of the elevated PO4. As such, I've gotten to the point after having this particular tank for 20 years now, that I never really need to test my water. When I do, it's always perfect and PO4 is one of those things that I can look at my tank or any other one for that matter and know when the PO4 levels are truly too high. That said, I don't think .05 or even .07 is really too high but then again, I don't profess to be an expert on PO4. I only know what works for me. Heck, even when I hit .20 or .30, I didn't notice any of my corals being unhappy. The only ill effects of the elevated PO4 was seeing some nuisance algae.

Sorry for the long winded ramble of a post. I seem to excel in the long winded ramble department!
 
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Since the .20 reading Insomniac, I changed the rate of dosing a few times. I even went to your rate of 15/3:30 :0) I did change from that and went to 15/7:20 I may not get a chance to test for a day or two so I didn't want to leave it at 15/3:30 The 15/7:20 should continue to drop the reading/PO4. I was worried about dropping it to quickly...maybe an unnecessary worry? I have noticed that this sediment filter is getting dirty much quicker than my first sediment filter I used...this has surprised me. I have also noticed more precipitant in my skimmer than previously as I did a little/short experiment. I removed the 5 micron sock for a few days. Two days in a row, I had to empty the skimmer each day. The third day it was at half the volume of those first 2 days. On day 4, I emptied a full collection cup like those first 2 days. On day 4 I put in a new 5 micron sock.

I have no idea why the sediment filter is getting dirtier than the first filter. Could my rock and/or sand be leaching PO4 faster now? I have no clue :0) Everything in the tank looks fine...fish, snails and crabs, and the corals.

I did have a conch die...it was small and the crabs were eating it so I don't think that raised the PO4 level. All I can surmise is the reactor wasn't working properly...the noise and the solution line was blocked and therefore no PO4 reduction... It is working now so I feel better :0) Hopefully it won't happen again :0)
 
If you look at it like there is more PO4 in the water to react, there would be more of a chance that it would bind quicker (sooner). I feel that this would be a logical assumption. It falls true with almost anything chemistry related.

This is kind of why i continue to caution you to be careful about chasing the carrot. From my perspective, phosphate levels anywhere under 1.0 should be perfectly acceptable. .07 is my target.

And if you are .20 so soon, I definitely feel that it is your rocks/substrate, topoff water, or crazy heavy feeding!

Since the .20 reading Insomniac, I changed the rate of dosing a few times. I even went to your rate of 15/3:30 :0) I did change from that and went to 15/7:20 I may not get a chance to test for a day or two so I didn't want to leave it at 15/3:30 The 15/7:20 should continue to drop the reading/PO4. I was worried about dropping it to quickly...maybe an unnecessary worry? I have noticed that this sediment filter is getting dirty much quicker than my first sediment filter I used...this has surprised me. I have also noticed more precipitant in my skimmer than previously as I did a little/short experiment. I removed the 5 micron sock for a few days. Two days in a row, I had to empty the skimmer each day. The third day it was at half the volume of those first 2 days. On day 4, I emptied a full collection cup like those first 2 days. On day 4 I put in a new 5 micron sock.

I have no idea why the sediment filter is getting dirtier than the first filter. Could my rock and/or sand be leaching PO4 faster now? I have no clue :0) Everything in the tank looks fine...fish, snails and crabs, and the corals.

I did have a conch die...it was small and the crabs were eating it so I don't think that raised the PO4 level. All I can surmise is the reactor wasn't working properly...the noise and the solution line was blocked and therefore no PO4 reduction... It is working now so I feel better :0) Hopefully it won't happen again :0)
 
.1502 I don't understand why it keeps going up. I just changed the reactor to 15/3:30 and see how that does until I get a chance to test it again. Probably won't be until Sunday but I will do my best to check it tomorrow...having our Club's swap Saturday so Friday is set up...about 1 1/2 hr drive from me :( It's set to dose twice as often as I had it. I see the LaCl solution dripping so if it doesn't go down at the current dosage, it will have to be something in the reactor line. The 5 micron sock is not dirty/overflowing :0)

Looks like I'm losing my Red Dragon today :( Another of the new SPS's I just got a few weeks ago; may be due to the high PO4 as the guy keeps his at .02-.03. ALk is at 8.1 and tested CA at 500/510...it always runs that high :(
 
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.1502 I don't understand why it keeps going up. I just changed the reactor to 15/3:30 and see how that does until I get a chance to test it again. Probably won't be until Sunday but I will do my best to check it tomorrow...having our Club's swap Saturday so Friday is set up...about 1 1/2 hr drive from me :( It's set to dose twice as often as I had it. I see the LaCl solution dripping so if it doesn't go down at the current dosage, it will have to be something in the reactor line. The 5 micron sock is not dirty/overflowing :0)

Looks like I'm losing my Red Dragon today :( Another of the new SPS's I just got a few weeks ago; may be due to the high PO4 as the guy keeps his at .02-.03. ALk is at 8.1 and tested CA at 500/510...it always runs that high :(

What is your nitrate reading at? If N03=0, then that is part of the problem. You want your tank in balance naturally with the proper ratio of carbon, PO4 and NO3 and iron so that your bacteria will keep the majority of your PO4 issues in check by themselves. Then your LaCL just pulls off excess PO4 when needed.
 
I haven't tested nitrates recently. If I remember correctly, they were around 5ppm and that's using API. I used to use Salifert or Elos but when I finally got them in check, I just bought the API...easier to throw away an expired API than one of the others :0) I don't think my tanks have ever been "in balance" as something is usually high :( I recently went back to Instant Ocean to see if I can get the CA down. The Mag always runs high...like 14-1500. High PO4, High Ca and Mag...surprising that anything grows! lol
 
I haven't tested nitrates recently. If I remember correctly, they were around 5ppm and that's using API. I used to use Salifert or Elos but when I finally got them in check, I just bought the API...easier to throw away an expired API than one of the others :0) I don't think my tanks have ever been "in balance" as something is usually high :( I recently went back to Instant Ocean to see if I can get the CA down. The Mag always runs high...like 14-1500. High PO4, High Ca and Mag...surprising that anything grows! lol

Its worth finding out what your N03 is and then retest it weekly. You'll be amazed at the correlation between high PO4 and low NO3 if you are dosing some form of carbon (I don't recall if you do or not).

If NO3 is on the high side (2-5ppm), PO4 tends to drop quite easily from 0.15 down to say 0.07). You will also notice that your skimmer pulls out more skimmate as well.

If No3 is low (0ppm), then PO4 tends to rise (0.10-0.20ppm). Skimmate production drops as your bacteria don't have enough NO3 to sustain them in the numbers you need. The additional bacteria (and plankton) also make for great coral food.

LaCL is just the icing on the cake for me as I've used it to pull down PO4 if my fish feeder puts out too much food for a few days or something like that happens.

Good luck and HTH!
 
Its worth finding out what your N03 is and then retest it weekly. You'll be amazed at the correlation between high PO4 and low NO3 if you are dosing some form of carbon (I don't recall if you do or not).

If NO3 is on the high side (2-5ppm), PO4 tends to drop quite easily from 0.15 down to say 0.07). You will also notice that your skimmer pulls out more skimmate as well.

If No3 is low (0ppm), then PO4 tends to rise (0.10-0.20ppm). Skimmate production drops as your bacteria don't have enough NO3 to sustain them in the numbers you need. The additional bacteria (and plankton) also make for great coral food.

LaCL is just the icing on the cake for me as I've used it to pull down PO4 if my fish feeder puts out too much food for a few days or something like that happens.

Good luck and HTH!

Thank you so much for the explanation!:love1: That's the best I've heard so I can truly understand the correlation!!

Here's what I have now everyone: But Note- I may have fed right before taking the water sample...I can't remember:facepalm: Had a LONG , stressful past 2 days:facepalm: I think I did especially with the nitrate reading I got!...doh! I do dose vinegar but haven't the last 2 days:twitch:

11/7 .1502 {15/3:30}
11/10 .1339
NO3 40ppm (API)

I have changed the dosing to {15/2:30}. I will try to test again tomorrow without messing up:lolspin:
 
Just finished testing at 3:30 CST: .1287 Now I know why I did weekly WC's- to keep nitrates low! Even though it's API that I'm using, and they test 'low', the trates are at 10-20 when I shake it for a minute :( So, for NO3 the result was 40ppm. That's WAY TOO HIGH for my tank!

Do you think that I should go to 15/1:30 for the dosing? I've been at 15/2:30 for the past couple of days?

How am I going to get the trates down without doing WC's?!
 
Just finished testing at 3:30 CST: .1287 Now I know why I did weekly WC's- to keep nitrates low! Even though it's API that I'm using, and they test 'low', the trates are at 10-20 when I shake it for a minute :( So, for NO3 the result was 40ppm. That's WAY TOO HIGH for my tank!

Do you think that I should go to 15/1:30 for the dosing? I've been at 15/2:30 for the past couple of days?

How am I going to get the trates down without doing WC's?!

If your nitrates are that high, a couple things come to mind. First, your biological filtration is probably not up to par for your feeding habits and bio load. You might consider cutting your feeding back and keep an eye on yoru fish to make sure they don't get skinny. Adding live rock to your sump could help in providing additional biological filtration. Also, have you vacuumed your sump or sand bad lately? That is another thing that may help as both the sump and sandbed tend to collect waste. You could also consider adding a media reactor or some sort. Adjusting your skimmer to skim wet will also help export more waste from the tank.

In my case, I feed pretty heavily every day but I have a lot (close to 1000 pounds) of live rock in my system along with a deep sand bed in my refugium. I also have a very good skimmer set to skim on the wetter side. I haven't had nitrates register on a test from my tank in years. As for water changes, I only change out less than 20% of my water per month via an automated process.

I am a firm believer in having a good biological bed for filtration. It might be good to get a better idea of your systems filtration, tank size, number of fish etc. If you don't have room for more rock to augment your biological bed, water changes may be your best bet. In the mean time, I would suggest you start doing some larger water changes to reduce your nitrate levels and maybe get a different test kit to compare results.
 
To say the least, I was shocked to see the NO3 that high! I wasn't having a problem with them when I was doing weekly WC's. I have decreased the amount of food that I'm feeding now. I probably have 150lbs of rock in the tank, maybe more. The fuge part of the sump has a little. I removed that rock awhile back as the chaeto was growing like a weed and the rocks were preventing it from growing more(not enough space). What's strange is the chaeto isn't growing like it was? Could it be from the LaCl? Maybe I need new chaeto?

I regularly clean the fuge part of the sump. The only part that doesn't get cleaned is the skimmer chamber as there is no room at all to get in there :9( so I have no idea if or how dirty it might be. I cannot see any detritus but that doesn't mean much. I use a felt filter sock at the drain line and change it once or twice a week...I try not to let it overflow :0) I have not vacummed the sandbed for quite some time as it is pretty much covered with 3" frag discs, snails and 3 conch's. I have been working at setting up another frag tank and I hope to get it plumbed soon. Then I will be able to work on the sand bed. I was using a turkey baster to get the detritus waterborne but I haven't it done that for a couple or 3 weeks. My SB is about an 1"- 1 1/2". I have a Reef Dynamics skimmer and do skim wet :0) Sometimes it "burps" and the cup overflows because I have it set too high :(

I guesstimate a TWV of 120-130g. I have 3 very large fish (hippo tang, foxface and purple tang), 5 adult chromis, a PJ Cardinal fish, a spotted mandarin, and a hawk fish. 4 RBTA's now- just sold one. A lot of snails(cerith, astreas, tonga nassarius and 1 Mexican turbo) and crabs(they are tiny ones though). I'm sure the nitrates are high because I haven't kept up my normal maintence routine :9( The 40B (barebottom) just shows .03PO4 and 0 NO3...so you know that I can keep levels in check :0) There are only 3 small fish in it though...a 6-line wrasse, a clown goby and a Banghaii Not overstocked by any means :0) unlike the DT!

I tested PO4 again last night... .1011 MUCH BETTER!! CA is finally down too...450-460 Salifert. Maybe I can get the hubby to run a drain line for the frag tank this weekend and mount the light. Then I can start working on the DT's sandbed ;0)

Thanks for the input Slief :0) Feel free to keep it coming :0)
 
I normally would not speak of personal issues but I feel it may be time so you guys can know what I'm dealing with and what/who you are dealing with. lol About a month ago, I was diagnosed with a brain tumor. My memory is very poor now and there are other issues too which I won't get in to. So, I'm struggling with the DT and keeping all the tanks at a level that is conducive to coral and fish health. I had my first appointment Monday and I have several more scheduled. A little over 4 years ago, I had colon cancer...that increases the risk that the tumor may be cancer. However, I am a fighter and truly believe that the tumor is NOT cancerous. I will get through this :0) I just hope that something can be done to improve my memory and overall level of functioning so I can get back to a more 'normal' life ;0)

So moving along...I TRUELY APPRECIATE the help ALL of you have been giving me. Your input and, responses to my questions have been "tank-saving" due to my memory lapses...like cleaning the sandbed :0) So PLEASE, speak up as I need your guidance until I can get back to a better level :0) "I promise" I won't take offense to your remarks :0) I need all the help I can get right now :0) I "Thank God" that you all have been so patient with me :0) THANK YOU ALL!!!
 
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