Landlords Log - Breeding Tomato Clowns

"Detritus and algae are becoming an issue in the tank. It is absolutely filthy looking on the bottom. Cleaning it looks like it will become an every other day job. Which in terms of salt use is getting out of hand. Between the weekly 15 gallon change for the DT, the 2 gallon daily rotifer top off, and the 2 larvae tanks, (More on the second tank to come), I am using up salt really fast."

Salt does get expensive. I'm using a pail a month now. Why are you topping off Rotifers? Just strain the water back into the culture and do periodic water changes.


"Question - Does anyone utilize a limited CuC in their larvae tank to aid in the detritus mess? If so what mix works (2 ceriths, 1 astrea, etc...)"

I don't use any.. I used to have a big turbo in a larvae tank but he didn't do much. Try it.

"In any case I figure we captured between 350 and 450 fry."

Nice haul.

"I attempted to siphon / turkey baste out the dead fry from the previous day and gave up. I was simply siphoning up to many living fry and it did not seem worth it to me. I will make another attempt when the larvae get a bit bigger. "

I use a piece of rigid airline tubing attached to a soft one. i use the rigid end in the tank to siphon the dead. Its very low flow so even the larvae can escape it.

"At around day 3-4 I may begin more agressive cleaning."

I really don't clean for the first week.

Congrats. It looks like you are getting the hang of things. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14818512#post14818512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kyle1284
wow buddy this is awesome... i wish my clows would spawn... shoot that would help with the electric bill and all the constant supplies lol so keep al the updates up ... I subscribed!

:lol: I wish it were more cost effective. You'd have to run either a large scale operation or one much more efficient than mine to turn a profit, but who knows. I find it to be simply a labor of love, quite enjoyable though. Glad you are onboard! Keep feeding them clowns, they'll get there.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14818521#post14818521 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dazed
I can snap a pic if anyone is interested.

Definitely interested in a picture. I figure with a picture I could have made the one I got myself. Just some fancy grinding on a couple bucks worth of PVC. --Thanks

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14818586#post14818586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
Why are you topping off Rotifers? Just strain the water back into the culture and do periodic water changes.

I am topping off the rotifers becuase I was somehow under the impression that after straining them, the old water was supposed to be tossed out. On the bright side I do have really nice (knock on wood) rotifer cultures. Maybe I'll experiment with one of my buckets and simply re-use the old water. I do not want to jinx myself into a crash! :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14818586#post14818586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
I really don't clean for the first week.

Understood, but are you waiting a week to begin pulling out any dead larvae? The 30 or so that died on me have simply degraded into nothing by this point. I need a better siphon mechanism for sure.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14818586#post14818586 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
Congrats. It looks like you are getting the hang of things. :)

It's amazing how successful one can be with lots of help ;) Thanks again

:) Kurt
 
Got to keep it short today. Heading off to court at 9:00 AM so I have to get some things done at work this AM.

Batch II - Day 15 - All is going pretty well. Tank is still up there with ammonia. I scraped the glass and crud from the sides and bottom of the larvae tank today, whcih probably only increased the free floating ammonia. So I did small water change and added some ammonia remover to try and combat this issue. I am debating doing a big change with water from my display tank this weekend (DT change out water is quite polished). The badge is on the third color of the four color wheel so I am understandably nervous. I am hoping that the sponge will get colonized and start to convert some of that but I am doubtful.

I have started these guys on Oto B1. Seems a bit more appropriately sized for them. The are eating it very well. Here are a couple of pictures of them.

Again these guys aren't posing very well lately so use your imagination

41453day15.jpg


Stripes are more apparent. BTW these were taken before cleaning the tank. It is now spotless (but still full of ammonia) :(

41453day15a.jpg




Batch III Day 3 - Everything is swimming right along. Having such a large amount of fry is starting to pose some different challanges for me. The fry are definitely consuming more rotifers than Batch II. The rotifers are unable to keep up with the predation they are suffering, but that is a good thing. It should make it easier to thin their numbers towards the end of meta. I am also noticing that the growth of the sfry seems to be happening more slowly. Maybe it is simply the amount of fry in the larvae tank, or maybe I am comparing them to Batch II so my frame of reference is skewed. In any case all have silver bellies and I haven't seen any new deadloss.

I have attached some group shots of this batch just prior to adding rotifer diet to the tank, which kept them all lined up against the glass.

41453b2day3.jpg


This small little slice of the picture has at least 50 fry in various states of focus to give you an idea of the amount in this batch. I could easily have 500 or so in the tank, it is just too hard to tell.

41453b2day3a.jpg


Thanks again for looking and especially for all the great advice!

:) Kurt
 
"I am topping off the rotifers becuase I was somehow under the impression that after straining them, the old water was supposed to be tossed out. On the bright side I do have really nice (knock on wood) rotifer cultures. Maybe I'll experiment with one of my buckets and simply re-use the old water. I do not want to jinx myself into a crash!"

Its been my experience that they crash no matter what I do so I choose to save money on salt. Plus rotifers are easily re- started. Especially seeing as you aren't going to be able to raise / sell every batch anyways. A crash wouldn't be devastating. Mine just crashed 2 weeks ago and I was able to use the new cultures in a few days.


"Understood, but are you waiting a week to begin pulling out any dead larvae? The 30 or so that died on me have simply degraded into nothing by this point. I need a better siphon mechanism for sure."

No I pull dead larvae immediately. Using the rigid airline tubing as I described earlier. I bought a small siphon as well for when they are about a week old. Its 1" rigid tube connected to a 1/8" soft tubing. It works great and only cost me about $9.00 at a chain pet store. They have a few different sizes. I'm going to pickup one a bit bigger as well. (I also have one with 1/2" tubing but its a monster and is only good for 3 month + fish)


"It's amazing how successful one can be with lots of help Thanks again"

It is. RC is a huge help/Resource. I'm glad to help :)
 
Thanks rkelman I definitely need to save on salt and this helps. I am going to check the LFS for siphons. I have become so dependent on "online retailers" I forget how much of this stuff is sold locally. I never really give the equipment aisles a good looksee. Usually go and check out the livestock and leave :lol:

OK for a quick update

Batch II - Day 16

I think that the runt of this litter isn't going to make it. He looked as if he could have used rotifers for a few more days but he hung in there. Today he was pretty lame looking swimming sideways on the bottom. He still appears to be going through the final stages of meta and occasionally takes Oto B1 but I have my doubts that he'll thrive.

Batch III - Day 5

It is absolutely incredible how fast a full fry tank can decimate a population of rotifers. I wish I had more of them to give but they are consuming them faster than they are reproducing in my 2 buckets. I have begun supplementing Oto A, which I believe they are eating, in the hopes of not having them eat me out of house and home. I believe that the abundance of rotifers in the larval tank for Batch II led to a much faster development. Batch III does not seem to be growing as quickly.

Two thing that are different this time are:

1. 24 hrs of constant light keeping them awake???
2. Not having a constant, abundant supply of food????

Whatever the cause, I am not losing any fry from this batch. Just hoping that I am not underfeeding. Only time will tell.

Thanks


:) Kurt
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14832875#post14832875 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
You have your lights on 24 hours a day? Why?

I didn't want the fry to fall asleep. I thought I read somewhere that it would assist them in finding their food. I also remember reading that on the hatch night if the lights go out the fish will headstand at the bottom of the tank, which is what happened to me the last time (lost about 400 fry before the beginning of Day 1). Whatever the case I have lost none this round. Not sure if it was becuase of the lights or simply a fluke?

What do you think? Silliness? or does any of that sound familiar?

Thanks

:) Kurt
 
I use to keep a moonlight over larvae tanks 24/7. This gave them more opportunities to hunt for food at lower light levels. Especially the first 12 days before meta. Dense rotifiers is required.
 
I've never used 24/7 lighting. I think it might possibly be useful for the first couple days.. After that I don't see the advantage. (with ocellaris)
 
Update

Batch II - Day 18 - Tank was all full of ammonia so I did a 100% water change using water from the DT. Much better in there now. I did loose one fish and cannot be certain as to the cause, probably bad water quality. On another note, the runt of the litter who I thought would die is still hanging in there. He does have a very strange appearance. Almost like Frankenstein. It's like he got stuck in meta. Not sure if I should simply cull this guy or what. He is like all mouth and no body, stripes, color. It's quite odd. This week-end I am transferring these 30 or so guys over to a new 12 gallon all-in-one cube (Marineland) I think. It was free and I am not complaining. This will free up the larvae tank for the batch IV hatch coming on Tuesday. Gonna go ahead and split all rotifer bucket so I can start ammassing a larger quantity.

Batch III - Day 7 - Well my Mother-In-Law seems to think they are growing. She last saw them on hatch night so I will let her be the judge. I have been staring at them so often I cannot recognize the change. Have been struggling with rotifers. They simply devour them as soon as I put them in. I would like to be adding twice as many as I am but there are only two buckets going so the 33% harvest from each daily isn't cutting it. Larval tank water is starting to get fouled from the addition of Oto A. I have been supplementing this as a stop gap measure for not having enough rotifers. Looks like I may have lost 25 or so. This has to be from insufficient food. I am now turning the light off at night to see if I can slow these guys down a bit. I would guess there are still several hundred fry in the tank. Ithink for batch IV I may just only harvest 100 or so fry from the DT so that I do not get into this situation again. I do not think I can produce enough rotifers to sustain 300+ fry in a healthy manner. I would have expected meta to begin for some of these guys by now but again everything seems to be taking much longer :( It's gotta be the food.

Thanks again for reading and all the help :) Kurt
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14843898#post14843898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by FB
Sounds like you are doing great. Keep up the good work.

FB

Thanks FB! :)

It's is more time consuming than I initially imagined. I simply do not see how anyone with multiple larval tanks can keep up with rotifers, you would need like 6 x 5 gallon buckets. I can see a potential need for decapsulated brine in the near future.

I'm on the hunt for GSM's now too.

Kurt
 
Its definitely time consuming. You aren't feeding your second batch Rots still are you? They should be on Oto A completely if not B1. I have 3 buckets going and seem to always have enough. Why do you need Brine shrimp?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14846874#post14846874 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
Its definitely time consuming. You aren't feeding your second batch Rots still are you? They should be on Oto A completely if not B1. I have 3 buckets going and seem to always have enough. Why do you need Brine shrimp?

Before I update let me address your question. With Batch II I initially started out with a huge number of rotifers (as seen in the earlier pics) and about 40 fry, after the initial die off the first night. The greenwater method I employed created a super abundant food supply that fattened up those little hams in short order. I believe that I was seeing stripes by day seven. With batch III (now at 10 days old) I had a super abundanace of rotifers to start with as well. However, by leaving the lights on 24/7, or some other reason, I never had the large die off like before. The 3-4 hunderd fry completely decimated the rotifers by the second day. I would siphon a gallons worth of water from each of my two buckets but they were consuming them completely within an hour. My assumption was that this was not enough food. This led to my comment about brine. In any case they are all on Oto A, not by choice but by necessity since my rotifer numbers dwindled. :( More to come in the update below

:) Thanks ---Kurt
 
Here's the latest and greatest from the tomato garden.

Batch II - Day 21

These babies have acquired their new grow out tank. A friend of mine at work gave me a freebie last Friday. It is one of those Marineland Eclipse all-in-one 12 gallon tanks with some fancy retrofitted sunpaq light. The keyword being "Freebie" :) I hooked up some livesand on Friday and filled it with tank water from the SPS tank that night. I gave it a day or so to clear and added batch II on Sunday afternoon. I was finally able to get a verified and accurate count of the offspring, 37. It's amazing how hard something as simple as a count could be to get :lol: The little guys have "clicked up" into little groups of there prefered tankmates. They are much more enjoyable to observe in this new tank. The lighting is a 30 something watt 50-50 bulb and does not look way over blued as before. I will get pictures up later on tonight or tomorrow when the tank is a bit more clear. These guys are still eating Oto B1 but I believe that the size of the granules is too small and I will move them on up to the next grade this evening. They all seem to be eating like champs. There are a couple of fry that have a mis-barred headstripe but one in particular has a uniform misbar. The headstripe is broken on both sides right near the crown of his head making it appear that he has a white dot on the top of his head. That fish makes me smile :)

Bath III - Day 10

I suppose like children everyone is different. In this case my only frame of reference has been with the previous batch. These guys are simply developing much more slowly than before and I am concerned, more out of inexperience than anything. With Batch II I was seeing the headstripes begin to appear at day 7 yet with these guys I am not. I would say that perhaps meta will start in the next day or so but who knows. I am not really even sure what the signs are for meta. I am simply basing it on the appearance of the headstripe. With my current 2 bucket rotifer production line I was doing the same amount of feeding as before. Siphoning out a gallons worth from each bucket and dumping it in the larvae tank. These guys would have them consumed in under an hour. Toward the latter part of last week I started siphoning twice a day, bad idea :( They would still consume the rotifers as quickly as ever and now I have diminshed my rotifer stock to the point where I have not been able to harvest any since Friday evening. One bucket is still OK but the other is quite iffy. I had been supplementing Oto A for 4 to 5 days now and now I think I am simply going to cut them off of rotifers and stick to Oto A which has been the primary food source since the weekend began. I am adding Oto A as often as possible with my work schedule and all. They get a 5:00 AM, 3:00 PM, and 9:00 PM feeding. I am able to see some of these guys lurching at the food successfully but others lurch and miss. I do not know if the particle size is still too big for these guys or what. In any case I have siphoned about 75 dead fellas from the tank over the weekend. Many of the fry are kind of just drifting in the water column and do not appear that they are actively trying to swim. Like floating zombies. I mean they aren't floating to the bottom like the dead ones but they just do not appear to be "with the program" so to speak.

In re-evaluting everything I have experienced so far, I would have to say the under optimum conditions (Batch II) meta begins around day 7. With this batch, I have yet to see this stage of development. Perhaps now that the tank is self-thinning its population those remaing fry will get a kickstart from having more space and more available Oto A. As a take away, I guess the moral of the stroy is, in my case, start with a tremendous amount of rotifers if you want to get to meta quick. With the amount of fry that hatched from Batch III I would have needed about 4 good cultures to harvest from to keep the numbers and the growth up. Perhaps another approach would have been to start with less fry, maybe 100-150. Again I'm still very new at this and everyday is a learning experience with valuable lessons to carry over to the next batch.

With the transfer of Batch II to the larger 12 gallon growout cube I was able to move the sponge filter over to the Batch III tank. I want to get a handle on any ammonia issues that may start arising in there. Knowing how much slower this batch has developed I am glad I purchase an additional sponge filter. I believe that Batch III is going to be in this larval tank for awhile to come and I will need a sponge in the newly freed up larval tank for Batch IV after a week or so.

___________________________________________________

Some New News

I went to the local hardware place and picked up a storage shelf, which my wife calls a pie rack. It is essentially an adjustable 4 shelf (I only use 3) steel rack, painted black. It is a glorius addition. I am now able to at least organize the breeding station now. I have placed the rotifer buckets on the bottom shelf, the 12 gallon cube above that, and finally on top are my two 5.5 gallon larval tanks. The grated shelfing has all kind of places to hang gang valves and airline tubing. Wires are all out of the way, and the light switches are easily accessible. Best of all the wife is happy :) Before I had tanks balanced precariously on nightstand and bucket strewn about. It was a mess. This is much more visually appealing. With the breeding station in our great room it really needs to be :)

Batch IV - T-Minus 1 more day and counting...

I have decided to keep the production going with another batch and am not going to skip this round. After moving out Batch II the larval tank is currently running greenwater with rotifers to see if I can beef up the numbers in there. The current culture was started on Sunday at noon using a gallons worth of siphoned water from each of my 2 buckets. One bucket is pretty much nil. There are a few rotifers in there so I can only hope that by not harvesting it at all for a couple days I can get something going in there. The other bucket seems OK but I am still not going to harvest it in the hopes of incresing its density. The larval tank looked OK this morning with some rotifers doing their thing but it is not the density that I would prefer, I fed that tank and we shall see what it looks like this afternoon when I get home.

I am debating whether or not I should simply only capture 100-150 or so fry from the DT Tuesday night. I want to give these guys a better chance at developing more quickly. I am afraid that if the fry do not reach certain developmental milestones (meta) at the correct time that I will end up with unhealthy fish. Maybe it doesn't matter how quickly they develop to be healthy? I simply do not have enough experience to know the answer to this? I do know that if I pull them all on Tuesday night I will be in the exact same feeding situation I was in for Batch III. My guts says to pull them all, out of guilt I suppose. I just feel bad for the ones I cannot save from the DT. On the other hand maybe slow development isn't an issue and I should capture as many as possible. Perahps Batch II's success was out of the norm and cannot be expected with a decent sized hatch out. It'll be a tough decision either way for me.

In any case Batch IV is coming so stay tuned for updates.

Thanks for reading, helping, laughing, cursing, etc

:) Kurt
 
Start another culture. You'd be surprised how fast they will become a useful culture. Just dump a bit from each of your cultures in a new bucket of water. I would probably skip the next hatch and get the Rotifers back.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14865157#post14865157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
I would probably skip the next hatch and get the Rotifers back.

and catch your breath ;^)

not sure, i've been kinda 'on-again,off-again' around here for awhile, but i think this is the most successful initial attempt thread i've seen so far.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14865157#post14865157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
Start another culture. You'd be surprised how fast they will become a useful culture. Just dump a bit from each of your cultures in a new bucket of water. I would probably skip the next hatch and get the Rotifers back.

Yesterday afternoon I started a couple new cultures using various methods in an attempt to better understand density and how much food to provide. Using the muck from the bottom of my best bucket I started a 1 gallon culture in a clear plastic pretzel tub.

Also for kicks I am tried something novel. Using mason jars I added 4 oz of bucket muck and 12 oz of water to 2 separate jars. In these small containers I simply want to observe growth as it relates to the amount of rotifer diet I use. There has to be some science to getting this right and I am determined to figuire it out. There are definitely rotifers in the bucket cultures, I viewed them under the scope. Many small ones for sure just not a lot of adult sized. Perhaps I had a crash and this is simply the rebound

Thanks rkelman :)


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14865800#post14865800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by heap
and catch your breath ;^)

not sure, i've been kinda 'on-again,off-again' around here for awhile, but i think this is the most successful initial attempt thread i've seen so far.

:lol: Well breath catching definitely did not happen yesterday! Was busy fussing with rotifers.

You words are too kind. I can definitely see how things could go downhill fast with attempting a breeding undertaking. I believe that simply having the time to do things is the most important. It is amazing though how many problems can be overcome by simply reading through the posts in this forum.

Thank you as well heap ;)
 
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