Large volume laminar flow machine

[Aquatron]

Maybe next time you dive take some non toxic dye to release in the water column. You may be surprised with how you feel the water movement is doing to what it really is doing

 

[karimwassef]

Hi Karim....

Very interesting topic. I'll build me just an aquarium with a laminar flow ...

Best regards ... Klaus

Klaus - beautiful rimless tank and very nice design. I like the simplicity and the fact that it consumes no tank space.

I think the volume of flow I'm looking for would be constricted with PVC pipe instead of ducted channels. It looks so nice, I wonder if the idea can't be adapted with larger flow paths... How much flow were you thinking of driving?

Your attachment of the two pumps is interesting. Instead of using the same pipes for flow in both directions, you use a separate return pipe to each pump and the pumps run at different times to avoid creating a short circuit. I like it because it doesn't require an alternating flow valve in the middle. It is more expensive because it uses two pumps to create the flow of one pump but in opposite directions. But, given the complexity of the alternative designs, it may be that the upfront cost of 2x pumps is a better design option.

It also uses conventional pumps which is an advantage in reliability.

I think the distribution section (sides with holes) won't be uniform in that thin of a space. You need more space to make sure the path to each opening is the same length from the source. If you use high pressure pumps though, it might work.

Where would you place your overflow and sump if the bottom is used for the laminar flow.

 

[karimwassef]

Also as a thought for the clarity of the final product if it doesn't need to be clear you could get epoxy pigment from the paint store and add it to the mix to get just about any color you want.

Clear is fine and I think you're able to make a very nice plate there. I wonder what the resolution of the wax transfer method is.

I'll send you the file later today.

 

[karimwassef]

Maybe next time you dive take some non toxic dye to release in the water column. You may be surprised with how you feel the water movement is doing to what it really is doing

The water can move me by several feet in a matter of seconds. It's a wall of water moving in one direction and then the opposite. There will always be turbulence due to the rocks, but the flow isn't in the form of a pipe outlet - that I'm fairly certain of.

If you have a resource for what the flow looks like, I'd love to see it.

 

[danrobberg]

Not to derail the thread but klaus, I wish you sold tanks commercially. I would love a Royal Exclusiv tank to go with my Dreambox. I really like the concepts you guys are coming up with. Anything we can do to match the natural environment in our tanks I think is a huge plus. Could be a big step forward in the hobby.

 

[karimwassef]

Klaus - looking at your approach, I think it can be done. To get to the right flow though, it'll take 10 pumps at 4k gph each. Without actuated valves, it would take 20 pumps and there's not enough room for that.

I went back to the actuated valves from pages 3 and 4 but used the ducting concept that we've developed since.

With flow coming from below, a vertical distributor is needed before the horizontal distributors. I went to 4 horizontal distributors at 4" high each (instead of 5 at 3").

The tank has gotten a lot smaller and the mechanics are more robust.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0_zpsvex6w5r5.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0_zpsvex6w5r5.png" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsvex6w5r5.png"/></a>

The tank is now more conventional at 3' x 10' and 2' tall.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsotsvp082.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsotsvp082.png" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsotsvp082.png"/></a>

Here's the distribution diagram for the alternating flow

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4_zpsiir9tu2m.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4_zpsiir9tu2m.png" border="0" alt=" photo 4_zpsiir9tu2m.png"/></a>

Here's a closeup of the DIY actuated valves

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/2_zpslr6ywqze.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/2_zpslr6ywqze.png" border="0" alt=" photo 2_zpslr6ywqze.png"/></a>

All plumbing in 3" PVC, including the actuated valves.

Here's a side view of the horizontal and vertical distribution sections

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/3_zpsz6dx0xtj.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/3_zpsz6dx0xtj.png" border="0" alt=" photo 3_zpsz6dx0xtj.png"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

Here's the first prototype of the DIY actuated valve. I've been working with my dad on it for another project, but it should work well here.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/motor%20003_zpsuyyt8aqm.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/motor%20003_zpsuyyt8aqm.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo motor 003_zpsuyyt8aqm.jpg"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

I took a one minute video of my surge in action today. It's not great quality, but I think it's informative. Watch my sailfin trying to get to the algae on top of the overflow rocks. These are only accessible to him during a high surge. That gives him 2"+ of additional water submerged so he can get to it.

Notice the force of the water on this 6" fish about 30 seconds in. He has to cross the surge flow cone to get to the algae, so he angles himself to get room to avoid being blasted into the rocks and glides against the flow to get to the other side to eat the algae.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ae9YUvq68lg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

There are two massive jets coming out of the 2" on either side of the tank. That's why the water level goes up so quickly. Only the strongest fish can handle the flow.

But it's a cone of flow... I just wanted to share the motivation for this thread. It's not about how much water flows, it's about the shape of the water that flows.

 

[karimwassef]

just for contrast, here's the "calm time"
iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vAqrv-yiuT8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Michael Hoaster]

Looks good in there, Karim. Corals and fish look happy. I understand your drive to improve your water movement, but in the mean time, that'll work!

 

[karimwassef]

calm time didn't come through. Here it is again
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vAqrv-yiuT8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Gorgok]

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0_zpsvex6w5r5.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0_zpsvex6w5r5.png" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpsvex6w5r5.png"/></a>

Little silly to have 4 connections on the wings after restricting it all with just the 1 before... If i can read this chart right it would take around 40 psi to flow 40k gph out of a 3" orifice... But that isn't just an orifice. 40 psi seems to calculate to roughly 90 feet of head... Don't see that happening.

Making pressure vessels out of flat sheets seems like a bad idea. It would at least have to be much much thicker than what you are planning if you don't want it to explode. Also making entirely sealed boxes for pumps with power cords seems unlikely. It could be done, but probably need individual seals for each wire... And maintenance would be destructive as is, unless you plan to bolt down the top. Then it gets even harder to seal.

 

[karimwassef]

Little silly to have 4 connections on the wings after restricting it all with just the 1 before... If i can read this chart right it would take around 40 psi to flow 40k gph out of a 3" orifice... But that isn't just an orifice. 40 psi seems to calculate to roughly 90 feet of head... Don't see that happening.

Making pressure vessels out of flat sheets seems like a bad idea. It would at least have to be much much thicker than what you are planning if you don't want it to explode. Also making entirely sealed boxes for pumps with power cords seems unlikely. It could be done, but probably need individual seals for each wire... And maintenance would be destructive as is, unless you plan to bolt down the top. Then it gets even harder to seal.

Gorgok - weren't you the advocate of PVC pipe? I'm taking the shortest possible 3" PVC opening and pushing as much through it as possible.

I'm trying to minimize every bottleneck - the 4 is because there's room there. I have another iteration where the number of openings is the same. 2 x 3" PVC in and out of each section.

The pressure is just the result of the space constriction. We just need to solve that.

I'm not worried about the power cords if we can bring the pressure under control. Going to double stack 0.5" to represent 1" acrylic is viable too. Making a top that's removable - that's a challenge.

So, how would you do it? This can be very easy at 2-3K gph. How would you do it at 40k?

 

[karimwassef]

So here's the latest iteration.

I've been worried about the complexity with the multiple stages, so I've worked a single box (with pumps) and 8 3" valves. At any one time, only 4 are active with 2 in parallel and the pairs in series.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/0_zpshfdx1pc4.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/0_zpshfdx1pc4.png" border="0" alt=" photo 0_zpshfdx1pc4.png"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsnzytwuyw.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsnzytwuyw.png" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsnzytwuyw.png"/></a>

 

[karimwassef]

So, why go peninsula tank?

I want an 8ft tank, but I also want this alternating uniform current flow. If the injector and receiving faces are 8ft apart, then the connective elements outside the tank are also 8' long. So, the impedance is massive.

The only way to shorten the distance is to make the inlet and outlet immediately adjacent so the size of the plumbing is limited to the physical dimension of the plumbing.

If I could make the actuators smaller, I could get more of them in there.

 

[karimwassef]

Here's the actuated valve in action

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/A62C3528-E2BD-48ED-8750-C5D07F4F5FA4_zpshpiz44bg.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/A62C3528-E2BD-48ED-8750-C5D07F4F5FA4_zpshpiz44bg.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo A62C3528-E2BD-48ED-8750-C5D07F4F5FA4_zpshpiz44bg.jpg"/></a>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7WOPeaqThls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[karimwassef]

Gorgok - I managed to get three 3" actuators in parallel at each stage.

This means that the 40K gph is down to 13K per PVC section or 222 gpm. The section is 22" long.

Using the engineering toolbox pressure to flow, that's about 9.7 ft/100ft = 0.2ft of head.

Does your math tie out with mine?

 

[karimwassef]

I can also go to a single 6" and that would drop the pressure by 50% again - but the hole may be a little big for comfort.

 

[Gorgok]

Yeah i get around 0.25' head on that length of 3" pipe with 3 of them. Thats what 12 actuators though? 2 4"s would be 0.13' head, and down to 8 actuators.

I was trying to see if you could instead use pool filter backwash valves or similar to reverse the flow... then run pipe straight to the ends. But it gets complicated and messy quick. It would keep you from making a pressure vessel though.

Even with basically no head from the pumps the way the boxes are setup the system will be under static head of the water level in the tank. Which means it still needs to be sealed good or you flush the tank some day.