Large volume laminar flow machine

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

James. That sounds like it with a piston instead of a pump. I get the flow- but maybe draw up the piston mechanics?

I'm assuming this is like a massive powered syringe?

JamesHolt · Aug 7, 2015

Yes,, the piston would be inside the tube running from side to side,, when it moves the water follows.
Just like a massive syringe, but with two ends

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

How do you maintain the seal? Is it a DIY Or can you buy it?

JamesHolt · Aug 7, 2015

Quickey MSPaint sketch..

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

Thanks. How do you maintain the piston seal to the external actuator?

I would use the PVC extenders that I use for my surge actuators but this is a pressure application ... So that's a little concerning

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/EA28999B-01E1-4283-B16E-0449CBF77B03.png_zpsxdhdfzcx.jpeg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/EA28999B-01E1-4283-B16E-0449CBF77B03.png_zpsxdhdfzcx.jpeg" border="0" alt=" photo EA28999B-01E1-4283-B16E-0449CBF77B03.png_zpsxdhdfzcx.jpeg"/></a>

pisanoal · Aug 7, 2015

karimwassef said:
... This is really not about waves. I have monster waves already.

I may have to draw it out since I'm failing at explaining how this is different from a wave.

I'm confused how it's not a wave. The ocean surge that you were experiencing IS a wave. That's what causes it.

As to your idea, I would think a couple of DC pumps on either side switched on and off would work well enough to replicate what the corals see. If you are talking about visuals then of course it's much more complicated

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

Not perfect or complete but I hope it shows the differences.

JamesHolt · Aug 7, 2015

for the seal on the cylinder shaft you would need a piece made with cup seals and o-ring in it
for the piston it would just need to be a close fit or use an o-ring

ericarenee · Aug 7, 2015

karimwassef said:
If you're reading this, you're probably weird enough to know you're weird.

Erica - you sound like you're pretty good with mechanical stuff- you're a carpenter! How much more hands on can one be?

Anyways - my actuators are very simple devices. The biggest trick is knowing the right size of standard pipes and fittings that work together.

Thanks. yea i have always liked to tinker with things.. And to think i actually was planing attending pre med school (fathers idea) . But was just not me...

JamesHolt said:
Quickey MSPaint sketch..

I Actually think this may be the best idea..
I say that because if you get the seals right it has the least moving parts . Moving parts is always the weak point of any Design..... would also be easiest to actually test and mock up in a environment your not worried about water on the floor....

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

I'll mock it up, but the problem is volume.

Even in a 6" pipe, the volume of water moved is very small unless the piston stroke is very long.

So, with a foot of stroke, the volume moved is under 2gal. That pretty big in a 10gal tank, so good for proof of concept. But in a 400gal display, it's a puff ...

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

The displacement piping actually needs to be a sealed tank.

Say, 24" x 24" x 18" with a 6" piston plunger. That's 24x24x12 water displaced ~ 30gal.

If I get that much movement (all 12") in 10 seconds, we're in the 11,000 gph range.

It's half of the target above, but may be feasible.

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

It'll take a bunch on actuators to push that hard, that fast. Any hydrodynamics gurus around who can calculate how much force would be needed to move such a piston? It needs to move the volume through 12' of 2" piping and then two laminarizing boxes.

The boxes will create the most back pressure with 1/8" x 24" slits that are 1" deep... 96 slits total. That's per box, one inlet, the other outlets. Yikes

ericarenee · Aug 7, 2015

karimwassef said:
I'll mock it up, but the problem is volume.

Even in a 6" pipe, the volume of water moved is very small unless the piston stroke is very long.

So, with a foot of stroke, the volume moved is under 2gal. That pretty big in a 10gal tank, so good for proof of concept. But in a 400gal display, it's a puff ...

karimwassef said:
The displacement piping actually needs to be a sealed tank.

Say, 24" x 24" x 18" with a 6" piston plunger. That's 24x24x12 water displaced ~ 30gal.

If I get that much movement (all 12") in 10 seconds, we're in the 11,000 gph range.

It's half of the target above, but may be feasible.

I see what you are saying..
The pipe would need to be prob 12 inches or equal to the slots in the plate. . of course the number of slots and size would have be experimented with in relation to the amount / type of water volume.....

The design has potential because it pushes and pulls the exact same water amount with would create the perfect under current without as much disturbance on the surface.....

But .. but but. yea i know there is always that Terrible small word...

Your right . it would work on a small scale. To scale this up you would have to have add more piston / Plunger valves.

For a tank that is 10x10 that would be 100 sq in per 1 Liner inch to move its whole volume you would need a pipe in equal diameter... The plate will reduce that need some maybe even half.. so that would be 50 inch of water Your piston / pipe would have to equal that .
Would take more then 1 ...

If not you would only get very tiny motion
Ideally the shorter the piston stroke the better (for lack of better terms). So for a 8 foot tank you might need two 12 or 14 inch piston assemblies with a near complete aquarium travel time.. To get a sustainable motion in either
direction.

karimwassef · Aug 7, 2015

Lot of interdependent variables. Short piston means much large area to get the same volume... And the more force to squeeze against the larger area.

Come on... I know you fluid dynamics engineers are out there. Don't make me open my old textbooks.

ericarenee · Aug 8, 2015

karimwassef said:
Lot of interdependent variables. Short piston means much large area to get the same volume... And the more force to squeeze against the larger area.

Come on... I know you fluid dynamics engineers are out there. Don't make me open my old textbooks.

1+

I know the problems . But do not know how to Calculate the solution without building and testing.. Its not wood and Metal.... :fun4:

JamesHolt · Aug 8, 2015

Thought more on this idea this morning,,, pushing the water with cylinders would work good on a small scale,, but on a large scale, say over 100g tank the power consumption and support equipment needed would be costly..

Would be better to do like this
Still use the slotted dividers
Still seal the ends off..
Use two large AC pumps ,, for their quick ramp-up

Etch-a-Sketch below

karimwassef · Aug 8, 2015

That's were we were before but we were doing reversible DC pumps pointing in opposite directions and in series.

karimwassef · Aug 8, 2015

I don't trust one way valves and the water is just as likely to go in a circle in the loop between the pumps as go in the big loop. That's especially true if the impedance of the big loop is high due to the slots.

JamesHolt · Aug 8, 2015

Didnt mean to imply it was a one way valve..Just put "check" there as a generic term
For speed they would be to slow..
Pneumatic driven ball/disc valves or Pinch valves would be better.. I have used them as big as 24"
I dont remember ever using a pinch valve large than 6"..
Ideally you would have both pumps running constantly and just pop the valve as needed..

Got any pics of the surge setup you are using, may be able to use it, and just change the way it dumps in...

Are you just wondering about this or is this something you are really going to try...

Large volume laminar flow machine

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