Large volume laminar flow machine

[karimwassef]

To be clear, I don't want to set up surface waves or standing waves by pushing flow and have it bounce back from the opposite wall. I want the entire volume to shift to the left and then to the right. No waves.

So... I'm not sure who this is but you've posted twice under new names, so I'll assume you enjoy your anonymous poking at this thread.

That's fine. To be more specific - "no surface or transverse waves"

I would like whoever it is to come out and provide your perspective in a constructive and collaborative way. I won't go looking for every mistake you've made and posted to shame you, in exclusion of all the good results I'm sure you've achieved.

:wavehand:

 

[herring_fish]

Don't go looking up MY stuff. :rollface: I would get laught off the site.

 

[karimwassef]

LOL. Failure is just the path to greater knowledge.

 

[ericarenee]

LOL. Failure is just the path to greater knowledge.

So Very True... If you never Fail you will never succeed


For what its worth . Here is some of what i do For a Living.. I Know all to well about Trial and Error to Find success

http://bonnieanderica.myds.me/photo/#!Albums/album_457269636120576f726b20416c62756d73

 

[JamesHolt]

The 5 seconds is gonna be the kicker..
I have next week off ,,may try a few things at the house..

 

[karimwassef]

Love the vlamingi and the build in reef. Especially the side viewable built in. Nice carpentry!

 

[karimwassef]

I find myself thinking more about that circular tank... Well, annular, like a donut or a raceway. Removing one sector could allow for some laminar flow options.

 

[ericarenee]

Love the vlamingi and the build in reef. Especially the side viewable built in. Nice carpentry!

Thanks she is a Pet Fish if there ever was one..if you look close on top her head you can see the scars from lateral line .. she was nearly dead when we got her. Poor fish . She now likes me to pat her and must be hand fed several times thou the day or she will Splash water out of the pond to get my Attention.
Bonnie has most of our life on there i think...That site is running on a server in the other room....

Thanks .. I can Build nearly anything with a steel stud and a screw gun.

I find myself thinking more about that circular tank... Well, annular, like a donut or a raceway. Removing one sector could allow for some laminar flow options.

This would be very kewl.. But I might get thrown out of the house for building that in the Living room.... Maybe out in the Work in progress room .. Hummmmmmmm ...

 

[karimwassef]

Maybe the problem is scale. I can see this working on a 10gal tank with a big pump. I think that's the starting point for a proof of concept. Maybe a breeder 20.

With a short span, the problem become easier...

 

[ericarenee]

Maybe the problem is scale. I can see this working on a 10gal tank with a big pump. I think that's the starting point for a proof of concept. Maybe a breeder 20.

With a short span, the problem become easier...

This could very well be a Place to start......

 

[Gorgok]

Maybe the problem is scale. I can see this working on a 10gal tank with a big pump. I think that's the starting point for a proof of concept. Maybe a breeder 20.

With a short span, the problem become easier...

Theres no problem you cant solve with horsepower... Powerheads not enough? What about an outboard!


For the raceway tank stuff i was wondering how feasible it would be to just have a double rounded tank with a divider in the middle. No hollow, the divider is just to keep the front and back straights separate. It wouldn't be as efficient in the laminar flow as a true raceway i suspect. But would you be able to see an acrylic wall in say the middle of a 4' tank? If you keep it clean that is, and the edges are either covered or out of the water.

 

[ericarenee]

Theres no problem you cant solve with horsepower... Powerheads not enough? What about an outboard!


For the raceway tank stuff i was wondering how feasible it would be to just have a double rounded tank with a divider in the middle. No hollow, the divider is just to keep the front and back straights separate. It wouldn't be as efficient in the laminar flow as a true raceway i suspect. But would you be able to see an acrylic wall in say the middle of a 4' tank? If you keep it clean that is, and the edges are either covered or out of the water.

This is kinda like my Pond is.. The drains to the sump are elbows turned to counter clockwise.. The Return from the sump is aimed Counter clock wise...
Can Drop food or a algae in the tank and it will go around and Around Until Mrs Mingi catches it..... The Return is about 6 inches down as to not disturb the top of the water as its a LOOK DOWN View wave or top water distortion would make it not able to see the fish ...The rock work is in the Center of the tank where there is a huge cave for Mingi....

 

[ericarenee]

HUMMM The Raceway....

what if

You took a tank say 30 inches deep like mine..
put a false back in it say at 24 inches... cut some acrylic to round the back corners for performance maybe even the front... Make the fake back go say from 6 inches off each side of the tank.. But from the fake back to the front .
Leaving you with a tank that 24 inches deep with 6 inch on each end . Use DC PUMPS INSIDE THE BACK Area of the tank to push and Pull water thru the baffles.

basically a U Shape insert into the tank... The pump input aimed from the left and the output aimed to the right . Behind the wall... This would actually be full water movement.... THE Water would build momentum. When it reaches it peak have a second pump turn on the other direction... High volume at 9 head height dc pumps are under 200.00 ... And Will move massive amounts of water..
Still use the same plate on the baffle in the front... on each end... ..

 

[karimwassef]

I think the circular shape is important. The curve guides the flow.

If the proof of concept on a small tank works, it may be that this can be built into the rockwork to create zones of swaying laminar flow... Zones of directed and channeled flow.

 

[herring_fish]

So once again, we are trying to figure out how to only move a cross section of the tank 1 inch per second for four seconds and then reverse that. Right? or No?

Ok here’s some more thinking out loud.

If you are looking at a false back raceway, you could use the moving baffle idea with perhaps 3 or more baffles. Let’s call them paddles. With three paddles attached to one carriage, you would get less cavitation. That’s a miss-use of the work but it kind of fits. Actually, you would want to pack as many as you could back there so each one would create less wave action between them. I don’t know it might be 3, 6, 12, whatever.

How you would actuate it is another issue but when you move water at one point in the tank like that, you move it everywhere …excepting splashing waves. If you move three or more paddles in the back of the tank, the front will move as well.

The up side would be that you wouldn’t move one paddle a long distance, you would move several only 4 inches. Think small. It is still a LOT of energy but it would be only a baby elephant to move.

 

[herring_fish]

..Or you could use a paddle wheel with half of the wheel sticking up out of the tank.

Ericarenee I looked at you work. I wish that you lived in my city. If you did, I would try to hire you to build some of my nuttier marine ideas.

 

[karimwassef]

So the problem is distance.
Let's say you had a long rectangular tank (like a channel) and you could move an entire side wall (the small wall at one end) at slow speed down the channel. The end of the tank won't know anything has happened for 10 seconds. What would happen is that the moving side wall creates a surface wave (transverse) as the bulk water gets out of the way. The energy slowly moves down the channel as more transverse (surface) and less longitudinal (bulk) because it's easier to push air than water. Also, the bottom of the tank is stationary and creates resistance to the water touching it. By the time you get to the far end, it's just an ordinary surface wave. And it gets there many seconds later.

It's just a wave. Governed by distance, time, and material properties.

Pushing faster makes it get there faster but it's still a wave. No channeling of bulk water.

 

[karimwassef]

Ok. Imagine a circular tank. Not a donut or racetrack, a big cylinder.

In the middle, imagine a large paddle wheel that goes all the way from above the surface to the floor of the tank.

Turn the paddle wheel clockwise, the water at the paddle wheel starts to flow around in the same direction. After a few seconds, the whole tank is flowing in the circular pattern. His assumes the paddle wheel is big enough relative to the tank diameter.

Now, the wheel slows down, and reverses. Repeat....

This will work - I think

How to disguise the paddle wheel? Protect fish? Overflow?

Some engineering problems to solve but I think I see hope!!

 

[karimwassef]

Alternatively, you could leave the water in place and mount a rotating disk big enough to hold the entire display. Think giant microwave turntable.

Now the corals move and the water stays in place - back to my first example in the first post.

Probably not an enjoyable experience for the viewer or the non-sessile inhabitants, but the flow would be right!

That last bit is just fanciful.

I do like the idea of a paddle wheel centered cylindrical tank. Very few moving parts. Looks like a blower from above. Just need to keep the living things from getting wrapped around the axle.

Maybe an eggcrate cylindrical wall painted black with a black center and black paddle wheel?

The rockwork will need to be very open and airy.

Maybe several overflows in the forms of a rock mountain with a volcano top? Like volcanic islands that suck water from the top.

Now I just need a clear circular tub to experiment with. Maybe I'll get a giant plastic can of cheese balls and cut off the top.

 

[ericarenee]

..Or you could use a paddle wheel with half of the wheel sticking up out of the tank.

Ericarenee I looked at you work. I wish that you lived in my city. If you did, I would try to hire you to build some of my nuttier marine ideas.

Thanks.. You could always move to Kentucky.. Louisville is a Awesome Place to Live.

The paddle wheel sounds interesting.

Ok. Imagine a circular tank. Not a donut or racetrack, a big cylinder.

In the middle, imagine a large paddle wheel that goes all the way from above the surface to the floor of the tank.

Turn the paddle wheel clockwise, the water at the paddle wheel starts to flow around in the same direction. After a few seconds, the whole tank is flowing in the circular pattern. His assumes the paddle wheel is big enough relative to the tank diameter.

Now, the wheel slows down, and reverses. Repeat....

This will work - I think

How to disguise the paddle wheel? Protect fish? Overflow?

Some engineering problems to solve but I think I see hope!!

Will have to think about this one... But yea would be simple to implement both motor and Controller design.. Not TO Mention Cost effective

For some reason i am stock on the need to pull and push the water at the same time..... But I We did cut the grass today. Lots of pushing and Pulling with that... GRRRRRRRRRR Blue grass SUCKS... Never plant blue grass....