Large volume laminar flow machine

found this today...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gDgkNCdgoE

anyone use this device?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uioiwfuEpTo

IMO, It's not that different from a powerhead, except both intake and outlet are wide and straight to get away from the pipe output most pumps generate.

If it works well, it might be that an array of these pumps would direct flow more directionally than an array of propellers in my outlets.

They are expensive ..... I do not think they will pull the water from behind the tank They work more like the paddle wheel concept.

But no I Have not used one nor even had one in my hand..
I Do not think you can properly seperate the outlet from the inlet to have it pull or push the water from the back to the front......
 
They are expensive .....
I Do not think you can properly seperate the outlet from the inlet to have it pull or push the water from the back to the front......

Those are my concerns too.

But you know... it may be possible to use existing propeller pumps retrofitted with paddle rotors and use baffles to duct the flow in and out?

That's intense, I know. But the output would be a sheet of water instead of a cone or pipe of water.
 
Those are my concerns too.

But you know... it may be possible to use existing propeller pumps retrofitted with paddle rotors and use baffles to duct the flow in and out?

That's intense, I know. But the output would be a sheet of water instead of a cone or pipe of water.


You may actually be able to yes... Some Power head and return pumps actually are nothing more then small paddles.. The movement in helped with the Volute design
 
take one of these:

jecod-rw-20-wave-maker-wireless-controller-20000-lph-.jpg


remove the impeller

impeller-para-wave-maker-jebao-wp-10-25-40-rw-4-8-15-14947-MLB20092247751_052014-O.jpg


modify the impeller to accommodate a paddlewheel rotor (spare parts) in the right direction

Impeller-Blades-Direction.jpg


we'll need to find a way to keep it centered against the base - needs a casing that's solid and centered.

and make your own baffles around it... directional sheet of water output?
 
so these are called "cross-flow" fan blades

bitzertech$214338417(s).jpg


and are readily available in plastic

I have metal one from a microwave I scavenged a couple of years ago. It comes with a 12V DC motor. Never thought I'd use it for anything... and here is that "anything"
 
I think one distinction to add to your discussion is that a tidal tank (gyre or circulatory loop) may also have waves, but that a standing wave tank does not have to have bulk flow (although some flow will be present regardless).

The tank I'm trying to build imitates a reef that experiences strong tides (plus waves). Thus the inclusion of RW-8's in my bulk flow powerheads to add wave pulses to the flow. How effective this will be remains to be seen...

Mike
 
I think one distinction to add to your discussion is that a tidal tank (gyre or circulatory loop) may also have waves, but that a standing wave tank does not have to have bulk flow (although some flow will be present regardless).

The tank I'm trying to build imitates a reef that experiences strong tides (plus waves). Thus the inclusion of RW-8's in my bulk flow powerheads to add wave pulses to the flow. How effective this will be remains to be seen...

Mike


The whole thing is with those pumps inside the tank . You are just pushing and moving water around in the GLASS BOX..

With the concept of this thread. You are moving the Entire tank volume past your corals and Rock work . This just can not be done without the Duct section of the tank.... Corals and rock work in the ocean does not really feel waves what they feel is more like wind blowing back and forwards not a mass mismatched amount of flow...
 
I think one distinction to add to your discussion is that a tidal tank (gyre or circulatory loop) may also have waves, but that a standing wave tank does not have to have bulk flow (although some flow will be present regardless).

exactly...

I just want tidal flow that alternates
 
just sharing the idea that would minimize the need for a complex diffuser

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg"/></a>

by making a very complex non-existent cross-blade fan assembly mod for a propeller pump.
 
just sharing the idea that would minimize the need for a complex diffuser

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1_zpsbyt2ezpm.jpg"/></a>

by making a very complex non-existent cross-blade fan assembly mod for a propeller pump.

For these to do anything other then mix water and air together would have to have a Volute with a Input and output .... Which Could be built into the design in a helpful way to pull the water from the back channel into the Display .

Seems Complicated without a CNC Machine to build molds for injection molding a Impeller assembly and proper volute..
 
The white strips are my conceptual sketch of the channel and volute.

Practically speaking, I'm looking at a 3" PVC pipe with slots for intake and outlet. Then an acrylic guide on the output to direct the flow.

Then a solid sheet with slot openings for the output sheets of water flow.
 
The Gyre was what I was talking about in post 114. If you went with a long paddle wheel, instead of those little custom veins, you might need to gear down the motor.

Would someone please tell me what is inside a torpedo pump? Is it a propeller or something else?

I think that prop-frags is basically right in that what you saw in the water was a result of a very long wave, not a vertical one but a wave non the less. It's just that it has become laminar because it so big. The tide is a long wave as well. It's just that the scale is bigger than our viewing perspective.
 
The white strips are my conceptual sketch of the channel and volute.

Practically speaking, I'm looking at a 3" PVC pipe with slots for intake and outlet. Then an acrylic guide on the output to direct the flow.

Then a solid sheet with slot openings for the output sheets of water flow.

YEA I GOT CHA NOW.....
The Gyre was what I was talking about in post 114. If you went with a long paddle wheel, instead of those little custom veins, you might need to gear down the motor.

Would someone please tell me what is inside a torpedo pump? Is it a propeller or something else?

I think that prop-frags is basically right in that what you saw in the water was a result of a very long wave, not a vertical one but a wave non the less. It's just that it has become laminar because it so big. The tide is a long wave as well. It's just that the scale is bigger than our viewing perspective.


I Would think they are a MAG Drive type of Propeller like in a Wave pump. Or Similar to a Rotary compressor motor...
 
The Gyre was what I was talking about in post 114. If you went with a long paddle wheel, instead of those little custom veins, you might need to gear down the motor.

Would someone please tell me what is inside a torpedo pump? Is it a propeller or something else?

I think that prop-frags is basically right in that what you saw in the water was a result of a very long wave, not a vertical one but a wave non the less. It’s just that it has become laminar because it so big. The tide is a long wave as well. It’s just that the scale is bigger than our viewing perspective.

Not everything that moves forward and backwards is a wave. For example, the movement of the moon relative to the earth determines the tides. High tide is followed by low tide and it repeats. Is it a wave? No. It's a driven flow by an outside force.

Edit - to be more clear, this driven flow can create tide waves... But the tide itself is not a wave. It causes the waves.

Waves are the result of a medium (or property of a space) where an injected energy continues to move and persist- even after the driving outside force is gone. The medium has properties that allow the injected energy to flow. That's not the same as driving or propelling the flow by force (like a pump).

A medium that can have waves will... But they're not the desired effect here.

Is my snorkeling sensation the result of a massive, long wavelength, very low frequency, movement of energy? Maybe. The part I can't explain is why the wave is longitudinal (forward/backward) in the real setting... But we can only create transverse (up/down) waves...
 
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The part I can't explain is why the wave is longitudinal (forward/backward) in the real setting... But we can only create transverse (up/down) waves...

I know that the moon creates the force of the tides but it is a slow wave action. It is cyclical so it is a wave. it's just not a wave like at the beach.
 
I'm a Surfer Dude …Really

I'm a Surfer Dude "¦Really

Since there are lots of people looking at this just for fun and since you haven't settle on a way forward, I thought that I would throw in another wild thought.

pnisevbigsurf3.jpg
That's not me in the picture.
I can't say that I haven't seen something close to this before but when I saw those waves splashing up into the air, I thought of when I learned to surf in Phoenix. Yes Phoenix Arizona.

They built a giant wall several stories tall. When paddling close to it, it looked like a building. It was filled it with massive pumps and then they let all the water go at once through big gates at the bottom of the wall. In that respect, it was like a toilet reservoir.

About 12 feet from the gates, there was another wall, well below the water line, that the rushing water ran into. This created a vertical volume of water that lifted me straight up about 6 feet to start my surfing wave that I rode to the beach.

Let's say you built a rectangular plunger, the width of the side box and the length of the tank from front to back. Then you moved it up and down with the piston, rod and crank style mechanism. This being driven by a geared motor so it would have lots of steady power. You have another unit at the other side with opposed timing but on the same shaft. You could play with where on the wheel the rods were attached to change the drive timing encase you wanted to change the timing of the force. The unwanted vertical wave action might be dampened by taking the second drive plunger slightly out of phase. (In the bottom of the picture, you can see the piston, rod and crank idea being straightened out so it wouldn't need the wall of the cylinder to keep it straight. In the next two graphics, you see how a standard placement of the rods could be and the last two are there to show how they could be moved while tuning, to change the timing of the second stroke.)

Then you use some of those curved louvers like in the big wave machine to redirect the flow across the tank. I think that these louvers could be pretty easy to make with limited tools and skills but I will skip how since this is just an idea.

Louvers.jpg


Just like the paddles, the plungers would not use a seal but have a close, non-touching fit. Water that blows past the plunger would collect and run off at the top of the stroke and return to the tank. This leakage could also serve to maintain the vacuum action of the upward stroke so that it might be able to go well above the water line of the main tank. This way, you could have a longer stroke for more displacement.

I THINK that a straight section may be over rated because ripples, like burbling after an airplane wing, would dampened faster than in air and be minimized because of the density of water. Up and down motion would quickly die (I THINK) and the stream would become laminar enough.

wavebox.jpg
 
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Ok. I'm going to start using the technical terms that the makers of this wave pool use.

Current = flow of water, usually in a circular returning path.

Wave = local displacement of water transverse to the flow of energy.

If the motion is horizontal and flows in a loop, it's current.
If the motion is vertical and the water ends up in the same original location, it's a wave.

So, when you use a sump and a pump to push water up into the DT, then let it overflow to the sump... that flow is a current.

When you use a powerhead, you create a current of water as you suck it in from the bottom (or behind in the case of a propeller) and blow it out the front. If the powerhead flow is pointing up, that current creates a traveling wave. If that wave bounces off a wall and the return cancels/adds, that's a standing wave.

In my surge, the water that goes up to the surge container via a pump, then is released to the DT, then flows to the sump, and then back up - that's a current. The waves that result from the current pushing against the surface - that's a wave.

When the earth, moon and sun align to create the tides, that creates a current. That current can create waves too. Those are tide waves.

currents can be violent and chaotic in their flow patterns, or they can be laminar and smooth.

I want to create a laminar current (gyre) that alternates in direction over time, not a wave.
 
It is cyclical so it is a wave. it's just not a wave like at the beach.

This is just not true. Cyclical things are not always waves... I think that's the problem in the semantics here.

If you put your hand in a bucket and swirl it in a circle... a flow (current) emerges. The momentum of the water particles keeps them moving in a circle. That's not a wave. It's a flow.

If you drop a rock in a bucket, and the ripples from the rock hitting the surface start moving towards the bucket edge, bounce and go back in, and then out again... that's a wave.

Current can create waves. It is not a wave.
 
I’m doing this for fun so I don’t want to argue about what Webster said a wave is.:lol:
It's a very loose definition. I may not be a monkey but I am a primate.


You don’t want a pulse of water that is likely to go upward rather than forward. Quick waves can be like pulses and long wave can, in some cases, create flow. You have explicitly said this in earlier posts.

Less have fun.
 
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