Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[codydemmel4]

What do you know about iodine Matt?

I saw some threads that said low iodine could cause alk burn like systems. on my triton tests my iodine has been 7 and 10, triton suggest 60 and the great barrier reef is right around 60 too. I am suffering this on my corals with alk being very stable at 7.7 and it is a very slow process and usually doesnt happen till 2-3 weeks after they have been in my tank, then they start to become looking very brittle, etc

 

[reefmutt]

wow everything is looking great!

Thanks, Cody. Despite things looking better than they did, they do not look nearly as good as they did one year ago..
I gotta get back there.. I really have to do something about my nutrient levels...

Reading this entire thread is so encouraging. These are the types of tanks in our hobby we strive to achieve. Thanks for sharing your mistakes and lessons learned so others don't me the same.

Hey Bulldog, thanks. Thanks for the positive words and thanks, if you read this entire thread! It ain't a short one anymore, that's for sure!

Great photos....and the corals look very healthy.....

Well done man!

Hey Alex, thanks, they are getting there but they are not as healthy as they should be.. looking back at corals I have had since last year, lately, made me realize they don't look nearly as good as they did..

What do you know about iodine Matt?

I saw some threads that said low iodine could cause alk burn like systems. on my triton tests my iodine has been 7 and 10, triton suggest 60 and the great barrier reef is right around 60 too. I am suffering this on my corals with alk being very stable at 7.7 and it is a very slow process and usually doesnt happen till 2-3 weeks after they have been in my tank, then they start to become looking very brittle, etc

Well, iodine was probably the original reef 'additive'.. it's been added to tanks for decades.. I guess this doesn't necessarily mean anything but it is the oldest element being suspected of benefitting a reef tank.
It is also as rapidly depleted from a tank as iron is..
I really don't know about what it causes when depleted..
I know I add it to my tank..
If you did a poll,I bet it would be one of the most commonly added elements.
So basically I have no knowledge! But like most, lots of anecdotal evidence that it can benefit a tank.
I don't think there is a downside to adding it, if added responsibly.
You won't find any of the recent 'systems' that don't include iodine in their repertoire of additions.
Yes, some iodine can be introduced to the tank via algea based foods but without adding it, I don't think one would ever get a decent reading on a test..

 

[reefmutt]

Absolutely spectacular! Growing and glowing.

The Blue Tenuis turnaround is remarkably improved but so is the blue and purple piece to the left of it. It is surely worthy of a mention. I would be proud to have a piece of that in my tank.

The flame is awesome. The blue and the green corals growing next to each other look like two fireworks explosions in the sky.

Whatever course you are on I would maintain without wavering one degree.
I would want to see just how far I could take it.

Good Show!

Kevin, you are right! And I didn't really even notice that until you pointed that out. I guess because it doesn't really look as good as it did.. but better.. way. Enter!
Here is a retrospective on this piece, since you mentioned it, Kevin and because Bulldog may have read through this whole thread, and it's been around a while..
July '15

Sept '15

Oct '15

Nov '15

End of dec '15

 

[reefmutt]

Continued..
Jan '16

Feb 16

Aug 16.. to bad I don't seem to have any shots in between..- but look at the colours!! Amazing!!

Sept 16 still looking awesome. One month before my alk crash..
End of December '16 these two are still next to each other..

Feb 17

April 17 blah..

Today.. better but NOT LIKE LAST YEAR!


I gotta get my nutrients down... slowly..

 

[codydemmel4]

What are you nutrients at now by the way?

What is your dosing for iodine?

 

[reefmutt]

N: about 35
P: about .2
I'm dosing 16 drops AF iodine and Flourine on Wednesday and Saturday.. so lower than recommended.. at the moment.

 

[codydemmel4]

N: about 35
P: about .2
I'm dosing 16 drops AF iodine and Flourine on Wednesday and Saturday.. so lower than recommended.. at the moment.

looks like those high nutrients are working for you though!

Oh okay so you are using aqua forest, any reason for that over lugols?

 

[reefmutt]

Well, no not really.. I wouldn't say they are working for me. I'd say they are working against me. They are not killing the corals or completely browning them out like so many fear will happen to their corals with high nutrients, but I feel they are inhibiting general growth and maximum colour.
I'd like to get down to 10ish N and below .1 for P.. I may throw in some AF Biofil and or an unseeded brightwell brick..
I wouldn't use a seeded brick as I've heard reports of them rapidly dropping n. I don't want that I just want a slow natural lowering.
Eventually I'll probably start a low dose carbon source..
As for Iodine.. I just have the AF iodine on hand, so I'm using it. I've used lugols in the past and I think it is perfectly fine.

 

[watchguy123]

Colors are great. Hard to understand nutrient levels as well as supplements. Separating fact from fiction is both confusing and challenging. Sharing your efforts helps us all, thank you

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Mark.. it's almost as if the higher nutrients go, the greater the need the corals have for supplements..
confusing to say the least!

 

[shih87]

Thanks, Mark.. it's almost as if the higher nutrients go, the greater the need the corals have for supplements..
confusing to say the least!

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

 

[kevlow]

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

I agree.
That statement is right at the edge of something important.

I think there is a tie between high nutrients with higher par that allows for increased growth rate and color without browning. [Low par with high nutrients only browns out SPS for me while high par and no nutrients produce tan acros] Without large amounts of Zooanthellae present the Acros depend on the supplements for health and well being. Especially since the light and high nutrients are driving growth.

Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hi
Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

Hi,

I think increased metabolism is a function water temperature. Metabolism increases as you increase temperature. Furthermore, in my opinion, THE most crucial parameter in all this is water flow. As you increase nutrients, metabolism of not only corals, but also all other critters, including microbes increase. However, in order for these organisms to efficiently utilise these nutrients we ought to increase flow as well. I will post a link about water flow later today.

 

[reefmutt]

A interested statement or observation, worth to dig deeper. I believe you are not alone here, but a bit more inputs may help a even stronger statement and some kind of learning for all of us.

I would welcome more input in this.. after I wrote it, though, I thought about it more and started to feel like it really doesn't make sense. Or that there is no consistency in terms of nutrient levels, supplements and overall coral health. Look at slavetonet's tank- it is stunning, growing like wildfire with very good colour. He supplements heavily and has quite low nutrients. Urbanek's tank also had great growth fantastic, colours, low nutrients (relatively) and he used full recommended doses of FM colors.
There really are so many examples of low nutrient tanks that are amazing and dose a lot of supplements.. the AF tanks or zeo..
And then here are tanks like Ed's or Connor's which don't supplement anything (although there is a significant and important group of elements in the calcium part of two part additives) and are stunning.
I don't see a correlation, really..

I agree.
That statement is right at the edge of something important.

I think there is a tie between high nutrients with higher par that allows for increased growth rate and color without browning. [Low par with high nutrients only browns out SPS for me while high par and no nutrients produce tan acros] Without large amounts of Zooanthellae present the Acros depend on the supplements for health and well being. Especially since the light and high nutrients are driving growth.

Basically, sufficient light and high nutrients drive growth faster. Colorful acros have less Zooanthellae, therefore, depend on supplements to support the increased metabolism.

Sufficient light + High nutrients = increased metabolism = greater demand for supplements.

Am I on the right track?

Kevin, I kind of feel like it's the opposite of what you said.. aren't the corals sort of in charge of zoox? Aren't the corals farming them? Don't they have control over density and health to some extent? I know the symbiotic relationship means that neither participant has total control and each benefits from the other.. maybe when nutrients are high, the zoox wants to expand but the coral has to work harder to control density and therefore needs more nutrition.
I really don't know..

Even looking at my tank (and it is by no means a stellar performer for growth or colour right now), with high nutrients and supplements, and good light, only about 1/4 of the corals grow fast, the others grow a bit and many are completely stalled..
When I had relatively lower nutrients - n around 5 and p around .08-.1, I had way better colour and growth using supplements than I have now.
I think corals can adapt to high nutrients but I also feel that generally they struggle more- maybe the supplements help in this regard..

Hi,

I think increased metabolism is a function water temperature. Metabolism increases as you increase temperature. Furthermore, in my opinion, THE most crucial parameter in all this is water flow. As you increase nutrients, metabolism of not only corals, but also all other critters, including microbes increase. However, in order for these organisms to efficiently utilise these nutrients we ought to increase flow as well. I will post a link about water flow later today.

No question flow is important. And absolutely temp plays a role..
Curious to see the link, Bulent.

 

[reefmutt]

Well, I am becoming increasingly frustrated with my nutrient levels..
Still around 40 ppm n and .17 p.. grrr..
My passive attempts at lowering them by adding the 6-7 liters of siporax in December didn't help, starting the Prodibio Biodigest didn't help- although the Bioptim has done wonders..
The several liters of matrix that went in before the siporax also didn't help..
I am getting motivated to be more 'active'
Last week, I added 5 liters of AF Life Biofil.. I guess that may take a bit more than a week to have an effect but it is supposed to act fairly quickly.. one week later, no change.
Today, I added a large ball of cheato! Not sure it'll grow though.. I've heard that it hates super high phosphate.. not to mention the reason I took it out in the first place was because it completely stopped growing. ..well.. we'll see..
I also ordered a 100ml container of Tropic Marin reef actif which should arrive in about 10 days.
So I have about a week to see if the biofil and or cheato make a dent in my nutrients..
If not, I'll be putting the Reef Actif to the test!

On another note, I finally bought some borax.. gonna go research RHF's method for mixing up a boron supplement. This is not for nutrient reduction. Its just because I want to try dosing it. It is one of Glennf's main additives.. so I will try it. Yes Glennf doesn't do any water changes at all but my little 10 or 8% waterchange isn't very significant it seems..
I just wish I could find a friggin Salifert Boron test kit IN CANADA!!!! But alas, I CAN'T!
Canada is a pretty big place.. I guess I haven't searched every corner but the corners I have searched have turned up nothin'.
I'll have to order from the US..
there's my very boring, pictureless update for now..

 

[Ucantwin]

For the chaeto I feel the light makes a tremendous difference. I first tried to grow it with a Home Depot light and it didn't grow well. I went and bought a Mars Hydro grow light off Amazon for $90 and it won't stop growing now. It will grow from a baseball size to a watermelon in just over a week, seriously.

 

[mhucasey]

I would second that getting a powerful grow light for the Chaeto would be a great idea to help guarantee success, but aside from that I think you either have to go fully Algal based nutrient reduction or bacterial based nutrient reduction. Mixing the two didn't appear to work for either one. Wean off the Carbon and bacteria or you will be scooping out dying Chaeto in a week or two.

The good news is that Algae is cheap and you wont have to keep buying and dosing all the different bacterial potions. You can throw a bunch of GFO in there too once the system is fully algae driven as the Iron won't touch off bacteria induced STN.

This is my first go with Algal filtration and its been a real eye opener for me. Over the years I've tried Basic Berlin, 4 different types of biopellets, Vinegar, Vodka, VSV, Zeovit, and Aquaforest. I resisted the "basic" method for many reasons but in the end it's a boring method that certainly works. I'm fine with boring and cheap at the moment.

 

[cobra2326]

Well, I am becoming increasingly frustrated with my nutrient levels..
Still around 40 ppm n and .17 p.. grrr..
My passive attempts at lowering them by adding the 6-7 liters of siporax in December didn't help, starting the Prodibio Biodigest didn't help- although the Bioptim has done wonders..
The several liters of matrix that went in before the siporax also didn't help..
I am getting motivated to be more 'active'
Last week, I added 5 liters of AF Life Biofil.. I guess that may take a bit more than a week to have an effect but it is supposed to act fairly quickly.. one week later, no change.
Today, I added a large ball of cheato! Not sure it'll grow though.. I've heard that it hates super high phosphate.. not to mention the reason I took it out in the first place was because it completely stopped growing. ..well.. we'll see..
I also ordered a 100ml container of Tropic Marin reef actif which should arrive in about 10 days.
So I have about a week to see if the biofil and or cheato make a dent in my nutrients..
If not, I'll be putting the Reef Actif to the test!

On another note, I finally bought some borax.. gonna go research RHF's method for mixing up a boron supplement. This is not for nutrient reduction. Its just because I want to try dosing it. It is one of Glennf's main additives.. so I will try it. Yes Glennf doesn't do any water changes at all but my little 10 or 8% waterchange isn't very significant it seems..
I just wish I could find a friggin Salifert Boron test kit IN CANADA!!!! But alas, I CAN'T!
Canada is a pretty big place.. I guess I haven't searched every corner but the corners I have searched have turned up nothin'.
I'll have to order from the US..
there's my very boring, pictureless update for now..

I've been doing a bunch of research on Cheato (posted a thread in Lighting/Filtration forum) and I don't think 0.2ppm is too high for it. I don't know where the guy with that in his sig got it from, it raised an eyebrow for sure when I saw it. Here's a really good study on Cheato growth: http://scimar.icm.csic.es/scimar/pdf/66/sm66n4355.pdf. They did PO43- enrichment at 18umol/l, which I believe is something like 1.8ppm phosphate.

The key is growing enough Chaeto to export what you need. That article talks about N/P limitation, but ideal ratios for N are like 15-20, so it sounds like you're fine.

 

[gregkn73]

I would second that getting a powerful grow light for the Chaeto would be a great idea to help guarantee success, but aside from that I think you either have to go fully Algal based nutrient reduction or bacterial based nutrient reduction. Mixing the two didn't appear to work for either one. Wean off the Carbon and bacteria or you will be scooping out dying Chaeto in a week or two.

The good news is that Algae is cheap and you wont have to keep buying and dosing all the different bacterial potions. You can throw a bunch of GFO in there too once the system is fully algae driven as the Iron won't touch off bacteria induced STN.

This is my first go with Algal filtration and its been a real eye opener for me. Over the years I've tried Basic Berlin, 4 different types of biopellets, Vinegar, Vodka, VSV, Zeovit, and Aquaforest. I resisted the "basic" method for many reasons but in the end it's a boring method that certainly works. I'm fine with boring and cheap at the moment.

Mutt why do you thing algae and carbon dosing+bacteria, can not be combined? In Mutt's case, bacteria + carbon keep nutrients relatively high, so why do you thing algae will not thrive?

Also I have red in the past that you didn't like gfo usage. Do you thing that iron from gfo, can affect sps negatively , only in very high bacteria concentrations?

 

[mhucasey]

Mutt why do you thing algae and carbon dosing+bacteria, can not be combined? In Mutt's case, bacteria + carbon keep nutrients relatively high, so why do you thing algae will not thrive?

Also I have red in the past that you didn't like gfo usage. Do you thing that iron from gfo, can affect sps negatively , only in very high bacteria concentrations?

My reasearch led me to that conclusion but frankly I didn't believe it - I was using biopellets in a recirculating reactor and wanted to add chaeto to the mix. I added it and got zero growth- even with high PO4 - and Nitrate at about 50ppm. I slowly reduced the outflow of the reactor, and saw a tiny improvement in chaeto, then finally said screw it and turns it off. Chaeto began to grow. Nutrients were consistently high throughthis whole time. There is more to algae than Nitrate and phosphate values.

As for GFO, in the old systems using carbon dosing any significant amount of GFO addition led to almost immediate base STN of acros. This happened over and over until I gave up on GFO all together. In any case, every time I've used it in the past I've had temporary and moderate phosphate reductions that made it not worth the trouble.
On a hunch, after switching over, I fillled a reactor with 500ml new and 500ml slightly used GFO and let her rip. Not one case of STN. Phosphate dropped and has stayed at 0.03 to 0.04 for a month or so now. Corals ar doing great. I think GFO has different effects depending on the system that uses it.