Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[gregkn73]

My reasearch led me to that conclusion but frankly I didn't believe it - I was using biopellets in a recirculating reactor and wanted to add chaeto to the mix. I added it and got zero growth- even with high PO4 - and Nitrate at about 50ppm. I slowly reduced the outflow of the reactor, and saw a tiny improvement in chaeto, then finally said screw it and turns it off. Chaeto began to grow. Nutrients were consistently high throughthis whole time. There is more to algae than Nitrate and phosphate values.

As for GFO, in the old systems using carbon dosing any significant amount of GFO addition led to almost immediate base STN of acros. This happened over and over until I gave up on GFO all together. In any case, every time I've used it in the past I've had temporary and moderate phosphate reductions that made it not worth the trouble.
On a hunch, after switching over, I fillled a reactor with 500ml new and 500ml slightly used GFO and let her rip. Not one case of STN. Phosphate dropped and has stayed at 0.03 to 0.04 for a month or so now. Corals ar doing great. I think GFO has different effects depending on the system that uses it.

Very interesting your experiences with gfo algae and carbon dosing. Showing how diverse the results someone can get, between different methods!

I have red many reefers using algae and carbon dosing with success. One is TMZ I thing. I run a skimmer less reef , with ATS and chaeto, sometimes growing fast both of them, others one of them and very rare both are stagnant! So for sure " there is more to algae than no3 and po4 values" ! It is the same thing as film algae on glass. Currently I clean it, every 4-5 days , with no3:2, po4:0.03, a year ago every other day with 0 readings , and there was time I cleaned it every 7 or more days, with no3:25, po4:0.3 ! Go figure...

I would like to combine both bacterioplankton production with zooplankton, so nowdays I am dosing diy nopox, in Donovan's denitrator, with good results after splitting nopox in many small doses through 24h, and both ATS and chaeto are growing relatively fast. So from my small experience, I can not see any negative relationship, combining them. I hope I will not see different results , in the near future

 

[codydemmel4]

For the chaeto I feel the light makes a tremendous difference. I first tried to grow it with a Home Depot light and it didn't grow well. I went and bought a Mars Hydro grow light off Amazon for $90 and it won't stop growing now. It will grow from a baseball size to a watermelon in just over a week, seriously.

I did this exact same thing. Cheato went from not growing to now I have so much that I could sell probably 3 completely packed quart sized bags every 2 weeks.

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Guys, both of these points are very interesting to me.
The type of light and the mixing of nutrient reduction methods..
Firstly, I am currently not carbon dosing or using gfo- or using algae to reduce nutrients- other than the bryopsis, bubble growing randomly and some cyano in my frag tank. So, basically at the moment no nutrient reduction method is in place.
I have always used dsb and algea as nutrient export- in all of my systems going back to the mid 90s.. my last system which used a 250w mh over the cheato gave me explosive amounts of cheato, for almost two years, until it just stopped.. shortly after this, the tank started as to not do as well and then I tore it down to renovate.
I take care of a large system in downtown montreal and it also uses a 5 year old mh bulb and the cheato grows like wildfire. Has done so for over a decade. Nutrient stay just above zero in that system. Sometimes, it slows down and cyano takes over but after a dose of some cyano killer, the cheato rebounds and the cyano recedes.
So clearly cheato likes bright light but it also needs something in the water to keep it happy besides n and p- there are the usual suspects like iron and probably many of the same elements many of us are playing with.. iodine, Zinc, mang. Boron.. tonnage a few..
Anyways, I don't understand why cheato sometimes just stops growing even when the light stays the same and if it stops growing in a system, why a different light would make a difference.
As for my current system, if grew cheato really well for over a year under an old AI Sol blue fixture, but then it declined sometime late last summer.
Currently, I have 4x24 w t5 over it. Not a great spectrum: 2b+ and 2lagoon blue.. I know too blue.. I'll change to pinker bulbs when I get the chance to buy some. Those were what I had on hand.
Personally, I HATE the look of the led grow lights. The light spills out into the room and I find it really uncomfortable to be around.. I'm a wus.. ok..
But more importantly, I have never used a grow light and very often had success growing cheato.. up until it stops growing..
So, having said that.. I think my system is a good light experiment because I have high nutrients, am not carbon dosing but am adding trace elements.. I will go get a couple more pink bulbs to replace the b+ bulbs and give it a bit of time. If the cheato doesn't grow, I will buy a mars hydro led and hang that and watch..

As for bacterial nutrient reduction, the only time I really had full control of nutrients while carbon dosing and manipulating p using kno3 additions was when my system was smaller and not as packed with corals and fish.
Since having my system in its current set up, I have played with carbon dosing while having cheato and not had dramatic results, just small and not very useful results.
P has always been an issue for me in my system. Even with cheato keeping n down to around 5ppm, p has been high. Only extremely aggressive gfo usage had a positive effect. Just for the hassle, yoyo effect and expense, id like to avoid gfo if I can..
I'm kind of with Greg on his one.. I don't really see why carbon dosing and cheato can't work together... I guess like all things reef, it's about getting the right balance so that neither one out competes the other..
Matt, bigE would agree with you that one shouldn't mix nutrient reduction systems but I think that would apply if one were trying to use each system to the maximum capacity AND/OR the system was not heavily inputted with nutrients.. I think my system has a solid nutrient input with all the fish I have. . If one were using both systems on a more passive level, maybe it'd work.. especially on a bigger system with higher nutrient input..
This brings me to the Tropic Marin Reef Actif.
Looks like I am about to embark on a little experimental journey.
First I will play with lighting the cheato and see what happens. Maybe switch to a grow light. I'll give this all of June and then depending on the situation, I will introduce the Reef Actif. I'm only getting it in two weeks anyways.

I should go back to last year.. or maybe earlier and see if I can dig up that YouTube video of the role of nutrients and bacteria on a reef and how too much carbon can propel unwanted high numbers of bacteria which can in turn cause tissue recession in corals..

Thanks for all or your opinions and input, guys. I like to have a plan!
Feel free to tell me if any of what I've said is full of shizzle!!

 

[slavetonet]

Hey Matt,
this is what I would do if that was my system.
I would load it up with more siporax or matrix. I can't remember how big your system is - around 1000 liters?
But I have loaded the equivalent of 50L of siporax into my new 5ft tank. Just running protein skimmer on it.
Then I would dose my cocktail of chemicals, vitamins, and amino acids to make my corals grow and pop colours.
In our modern system, I can't see why there could be any issues with nutrients as our technology can overcome it very effectively - imo too effective now for home aquarium.

Best of luck Matt, your system obviously works, and try to resist to change it because someone else does it differently.
Only you know your system like your back of your hands. Not me or anyone else matters.

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Matt,
this is what I would do if that was my system.
I would load it up with more siporax or matrix. I can't remember how big your system is - around 1000 liters?
But I have loaded the equivalent of 50L of siporax into my new 5ft tank. Just running protein skimmer on it.
Then I would dose my cocktail of chemicals, vitamins, and amino acids to make my corals grow and pop colours.
In our modern system, I can't see why there could be any issues with nutrients as our technology can overcome it very effectively - imo too effective now for home aquarium.

Best of luck Matt, your system obviously works, and try to resist to change it because someone else does it differently.
Only you know your system like your back of your hands. Not me or anyone else matters.

Wow!! 50L!! That's a lot! I'm probably at 23L of various media.. yes, my system is around 1400litres or 350 gallons.. I'm considering adding a brightwell brick and maybe another 5L life biofil.
But as has been mentioned above and Bulent mentioned it last year, no matter how much media you have, if you aren't feeding the bacteria enough carbon, it isn't really going to grow and reduce nutrients.
I sort of figured that if you are feeding the tank and have lots of fish, you are also feeding the bacteria but I guess it isn't the case with this type of media.
I guess coming from dsbs, where I think the nutrient reduction process is either different or more complex, I felt that adding carbon wasn't entirely necessary. However, I guess it is!
Anyways thanks, Slave. You are right, we all know our own system better than anybody else and we have to follow our own observations, experience and 'gut feelings' when it comes to steering our tanks..
I think I'm on the right track with additives, so now I gotta get nutrients under control.
Oh! And take some new pics.. gotta do that too..

 

[slavetonet]

Wow!! 50L!! That's a lot! I'm probably at 23L of various media.. yes, my system is around 1400litres or 350 gallons.. I'm considering adding a brightwell brick and maybe another 5L life biofil.
But as has been mentioned above and Bulent mentioned it last year, no matter how much media you have, if you aren't feeding the bacteria enough carbon, it isn't really going to grow and reduce nutrients.
I sort of figured that if you are feeding the tank and have lots of fish, you are also feeding the bacteria but I guess it isn't the case with this type of media.
I guess coming from dsbs, where I think the nutrient reduction process is either different or more complex, I felt that adding carbon wasn't entirely necessary. However, I guess it is!
Anyways thanks, Slave. You are right, we all know our own system better than anybody else and we have to follow our own observations, experience and 'gut feelings' when it comes to steering our tanks..
I think I'm on the right track with additives, so now I gotta get nutrients under control.
Oh! And take some new pics.. gotta do that too..

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

 

[watchguy123]

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I presume that vinegar or another carbon source is part of the vitamin mix. At the suggestion of a reefer buddy, I recently experimented and added Red Sea Energy A and B supplements. It practically removed all nitrates and caused me to use quite a bit of KNO3 to bring nitrates up to around 2 ppm. And it did not stop chaeto growth, in fact I have great cheato growth. Makes one wonder about all these interesting relationships.

 

[reefmutt]

The vitamins is your bacteria carbon food.

that's interesting. I can't say i considered vitamins as a carbon source.. I don't really dose them. I have AF vitamins but i only use them infrequently.. maybe i should try regular dosing..

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I presume that vinegar or another carbon source is part of the vitamin mix. At the suggestion of a reefer buddy, I recently experimented and added Red Sea Energy A and B supplements. It practically removed all nitrates and caused me to use quite a bit of KNO3 to bring nitrates up to around 2 ppm. And it did not stop chaeto growth, in fact I have great cheato growth. Makes one wonder about all these interesting relationships.

It certainly does make one wonder!
I dont think AF vitality is a vinegar based additive. It really doesn't smell like vinegar..
Mark, do the red sea products smell like vinegar?
Are you still adding the A and B?
it's also got aminos in it.. not sure it wouldn't spur a cyano outbreak in my nutrient rich system..

 

[reefmutt]

Little late night actinic photo dump..
A growth nub from some encrustation of a long gone coral. No idea what this is but is happy

Lovely acrodesiac. Growing well.

Red Diablo

A mystery Raja 'masterpiece'

A Fiji from reefsolution.

 

[cFloor]

Awesome shots Matt!

 

[reefmutt]

Hey thanks, Connor.

 

[bif24701]

I've got this monster over my cheato and it can reduce nutrients in days!

When I first fired it up I was at 20ppm NO3 and .1ppm PO4, 5 days later ~5ppm NO3 And .03 PO4. I was stunned. In fact I add a little NO3 and PO4 to keep things where I want them, PO4 gets used up really fast.

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[markalot]

Little late night actinic photo dump..
A growth nub from some encrustation of a long gone coral. No idea what this is but is happy

Lovely acrodesiac. Growing well.

Red Diablo

A mystery Raja 'masterpiece'

A Fiji from reefsolution.

New page.

Awesome Matt. If you have acros growing back from bases then all must be pretty darn good.

 

[reefmutt]

Hey Bif, thanks for the info on that light. Looks very similar to the Mars.
My buddy went to a local hydroponics shop to look for led grow lights. They said they used to carry the Mars hydro fixtures but stopped because they had melting led issues..
The viraspectra seems to be very similar..
I'll stick with my 4x24w t5 and 8wwarmmwhite strip for a week or two and see what happens.. if I need to spend the money on an led fixture, I'll do so but not right away..

Hey Mark, generally, I am pretty happy with the state of the tank. I have some browning spots on some acros and the odd old and 'never did a thing' piece has randomly rtned..
but many corals are growing very well and look good. Night time pe is quite good on many..
Colour is off on some.. I want to get nutrients down to try to deal with the nuisance algea and see of colour improves.

 

[bif24701]

Hey Bif, thanks for the info on that light. Looks very similar to the Mars.
My buddy went to a local hydroponics shop to look for led grow lights. They said they used to carry the Mars hydro fixtures but stopped because they had melting led issues..
The viraspectra seems to be very similar..
I'll stick with my 4x24w t5 and 8wwarmmwhite strip for a week or two and see what happens.. if I need to spend the money on an led fixture, I'll do so but not right away..

Hey Mark, generally, I am pretty happy with the state of the tank. I have some browning spots on some acros and the odd old and 'never did a thing' piece has randomly rtned..
but many corals are growing very well and look good. Night time pe is quite good on many..
Colour is off on some.. I want to get nutrients down to try to deal with the nuisance algea and see of colour improves.

You are right about the MARS and this light is similar. However there are no reports of that issue with this light. In fact it has a very large fan, heat sink, and lots of venting. Knock on wood that doesn't happen. I have seen many reports of lights like these having issues with moisture, mostly because folks don't understand the lights are not water proof and not a fault with the light.

How are you NO3 and PO4 now?


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[reefmutt]

You are right about the MARS and this light is similar. However there are no reports of that issue with this light. In fact it has a very large fan, heat sink, and lots of venting. Knock on wood that doesn't happen. I have seen many reports of lights like these having issues with moisture, mostly because folks don't understand the lights are not water proof and not a fault with the light.

How are you NO3 and PO4 now?


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Nutrients haven't changed.


N still around 30-50.. what do you think?
P.17 as per Elos HR test kit. Very distinctly between the .14 and .18 colour tabs.
I'll give it this week to see if there is any change and then I'll consider a stronger light...

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Matt,

Have you tested your nitrites lately or at all? They should ideally be zero, but even a slightest nitrite presence will skew nitrate readings.

 

[slavetonet]

Wow!! 50L!! That's a lot! I'm probably at 23L of various media.. yes, my system is around 1400litres or 350 gallons.. I'm considering adding a brightwell brick and maybe another 5L life biofil.
But as has been mentioned above and Bulent mentioned it last year, no matter how much media you have, if you aren't feeding the bacteria enough carbon, it isn't really going to grow and reduce nutrients.
I sort of figured that if you are feeding the tank and have lots of fish, you are also feeding the bacteria but I guess it isn't the case with this type of media.
I guess coming from dsbs, where I think the nutrient reduction process is either different or more complex, I felt that adding carbon wasn't entirely necessary. However, I guess it is!
Anyways thanks, Slave. You are right, we all know our own system better than anybody else and we have to follow our own observations, experience and 'gut feelings' when it comes to steering our tanks..
I think I'm on the right track with additives, so now I gotta get nutrients under control.
Oh! And take some new pics.. gotta do that too..

Why do you think it's alot 50L? Its just spare capacity to do the work.
Siporax or matrix.
I view the problem is people rely on the information on the company package - 1L = 200L of tank volume, but that is just a guideline. I would at least triple the capacity and be done with it like most people upscale their protein skimmer 2x capacity of their tank volume.
The live rock in your tank isn't do much at all considering. It's covered in all sort of things which limits their function in an enclosed system.
Just my 2 cents thoughts. :reading:

 

[bif24701]

I have found that high surface area media is fantastic for preventing the build up of NO3 but not removal. It must be in how the bacteria develop layers. The tops layers process the ammonia and nitrite and the deeper nitrate. They process the nitrate that is produced in the immediate area not the NO3 in the water column. That's just my though.

I have observed two key things lately with my own system containing 3 MP blocks.

I had been adding potassium nitrate to keep NO3 levels even >1ppm. I started a treatment of Vibrant while still adding NO3. With Vibrant cheato doesn't do well and before I knew it my NO3 was 30ppm. I made a mistake and removed the cheato and my NO3 didn't raise or fall even with the Vibrant/carbon dosing/GAC/ MP/ or reduced feeding. Mind you I had only a Home Depot LED over my fuge up to this point, but no cheato now cause I threw it out.

Algae and bryopsis quickly grew and I knew I needed to act fast. In just 4 weeks I had a real problem with algae , NO3 still 30ppm and PO4 is always .05-.1. I bought the light and cheato. Only 5 days later my NO3 had dropped to 5ppm and PO4 to .03. It was incredible. I am very confident that cheato is the only reason it dropped. I changed nothing else but water. It never would have dropped like that with the old light either. It would take >7days to process 5ppm NO3 after dosing.




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[reefmutt]

Matt,

Have you tested your nitrites lately or at all? They should ideally be zero, but even a slightest nitrite presence will skew nitrate readings.

Hey Bulent, no, never tested for nitrite.. not sure why I would. Not sure how I could possibly have nitrite..

Why do you think it's alot 50L? Its just spare capacity to do the work.
Siporax or matrix.
I view the problem is people rely on the information on the company package - 1L = 200L of tank volume, but that is just a guideline. I would at least triple the capacity and be done with it like most people upscale their protein skimmer 2x capacity of their tank volume.
The live rock in your tank isn't do much at all considering. It's covered in all sort of things which limits their function in an enclosed system.
Just my 2 cents thoughts. :reading:

Yes the media is much more efficient than live rock especially if it's kept in the dark and relatively clean so why would we need so much? Slave, how much room does 50 L of siporax take up? Do you have a pic?

I have found that high surface area media is fantastic for preventing the build up of NO3 but not removal. It must be in how the bacteria develop layers. The tops layers process the ammonia and nitrite and the deeper nitrate. They process the nitrate that is produced in the immediate area not the NO3 in the water column. That's just my though.

I have observed two key things lately with my own system containing 3 MP blocks.

I had been adding potassium nitrate to keep NO3 levels even >1ppm. I started a treatment of Vibrant while still adding NO3. With Vibrant cheato doesn't do well and before I knew it my NO3 was 30ppm. I made a mistake and removed the cheato and my NO3 didn't raise or fall even with the Vibrant/carbon dosing/GAC/ MP/ or reduced feeding. Mind you I had only a Home Depot LED over my fuge up to this point, but no cheato now cause I threw it out.

Algae and bryopsis quickly grew and I knew I needed to act fast. In just 4 weeks I had a real problem with algae , NO3 still 30ppm and PO4 is always .05-.1. I bought the light and cheato. Only 5 days later my NO3 had dropped to 5ppm and PO4 to .03. It was incredible. I am very confident that cheato is the only reason it dropped. I changed nothing else but water. It never would have dropped like that with the old light either. It would take >7days to process 5ppm NO3 after dosing.




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Interesting. Certainly sounds like it was the cheato.. well, like I said, I'm going to give it he week and then if I see no change, I'll try a stronger light.
Thanks for the info!