Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

Matt,


That is a perfect answer!! Thanks.

(Maybe we should have this conversation on my thread)...

You explained one key thing from your observations over time.
Corals handle/adjust the gentle climb of nutrients/N/P and things that come with the increase.
But Corals HATE drastically reducing N & P or anything else (when you get behind and want to fix problems).

So being ahead of the INCREASE AND maintaining Stability is key.

So many ways to do this. Some work better than others, and some work but you must be diligent on the routines (Any Neglect destabilizes everything).

This time I'm taking a different approach from the Hectic past.

[PHOSPHATE]

-> Even though folks insist that GFO or products like PhosGaurd are a no/no.
--> I think gentle small quantity, or intermittent use is OK to keep P in check if it start getting a little too high, but before it's WAY TOO HIGH. (Running GFO full blast is the problem since it Drops P quickly)

[ NITRATE ]

-> I am weary of Products such as NOPox/Vinegar/Vodka due to side effects. And other methods like bio pellet reactors which can get out of control or cause crashes due to Bacteria Bloom Death.

--> My Approach for N (still not fully solved...takes time) is more natural.
--------> I am increasing my use of MATRIX Media (both in quantity and proper placement/flow)
--------> and (not common) but I am running Two Skimmers (One Wet and One Dry). Since I have the EuroReef and the Spare RLSS DB8i. (This helps with a good Nutrient Export while I continue to feed fish aggressively)

[ NITRATE & PHOSPHATE reduction + Major/Minor Trace Elements replenish]
-> Good old Regular Water Changes, or Extra as Needed.

Of course running the Algae Scubber doesn't hurt. It's self regulating as I have learned.

Don't bother Matt , somehow I didn't see your answer to Wally

Greg, the only thing I would add is that there is never a good time to take drastic measures. Or, maybe I should say, drastic measure should never be taken. Small measure yes- over a long period of time but never drastic measures...

Wally, I have spent a lot of time putting down gfo on my thread and I stopped using it for a long time.. as for nitrates, I tried the natural approach and have had some success with my huge fuge- it's 36 x 36 and 14 inches deep. It is packed with cheato and many other types of macro algae. If I run it 18 hours a day, it can pull n down to below 1 ppm.. but I wonder how many beneficial trace elements it pulls out - not to mention that it is fairly ineffective at pulling phosphate down as well..
Recently I started using gfo again in a passive, step by step method that has worked pretty well for me. I use it in a fine mesh bag (the new black Red Sea bags) and rinse it well which loses me a fair bit of the very fine material... I don't mind. Better down the drain than in my system- even still it is accumulating..
the fresh bag of gfo sat in a low flow area for a week, then it was moved to a higher flow area, a week after and another new bag of gfo was added in the low flow area.. then after another week the older bag was moved to a high flow area, the newer bag was moved to the medium flow area and a brand new bag was added to the low flow area. This has allowed me to gradually and consistently reduce p without any yo-yo. Yes, it's a bit labor intense - and I will turn the high flow bag every couple of days..
each bag stays in the system for 4-6 weeks depending on how often I have to switch out the oldest gfo.
I don't mind phosguard- the aluminum based product you are using but for the money, gfo is cheaper I think because of its higher efficiency..
As for carbon sources like nopox or vinegar etc... I am not opposed to using them either if they are used lightly and consistently.
I take care of a decades old system with a 8 inch sand bed that was a bit neglected for years.. testing showed that n was way over 100 an p over 1 - not .1.
I used nopox for about 6 months to pull the nutrient down or mostly the n. Then I started dosing potassium nitrate on top of the nopox to get p to come down. As well as some gfo to help. So far it's working..
N is now about 5 and p is .7... it's creeping down slowly..
So all this to say that when these products are not over used, they can all be helpful.
I think the biggest downfall of 90% of the products on the market is not the product itself but user error.
We tend to live by the mentra "˜if some is good, then more is better' but when it comes to reefing, this just isn't true very often.
I think I like adding a small amount of a carbon source to a system- it charges up a level of the biotope that is beneficial to the reef.. where I've started using nopox, not only does it help with n reduction but I've noticed a proliferation of very tiny pods on the glass..
The trick is always finding the right amount and not overdoing it..and that can only be discovered by moving in small increments..

 

[Reefer40b]

I have had issues with even using small amounts of Rowaphos in a reactor I put in 1/4cup for a 200gal system volume phosphate were at .2ppm, where I like them to be is .1 but.... the next day pink millie RTN... I just dont care anymore about phosphate and just do water changes or feed a little less. Any time I try gfo of some sort I have some coral that just hates it! refuse to use it anymore. Tried it 3 times first time large colony of purple frogspawn sucked in and melted... second red dragon up in smoke and this 3rd time millie up in smoke!! And this is with a 1/4 cup rinsed I put the output into a 5 gal bucket fill it about half way from the tank manifold so its completly dust free. best not to chase any numbers! if .2ppm is what makes the corals look great then thats what it stays!

 

[Wally.B]

Greg, the only thing I would add is that there is never a good time to take drastic measures. Or, maybe I should say, drastic measure should never be taken. Small measure yes- over a long period of time but never drastic measures...

Wally, I have spent a lot of time putting down gfo on my thread and I stopped using it for a long time.. as for nitrates, I tried the natural approach and have had some success with my huge fuge- it’s 36 x 36 and 14 inches deep. It is packed with cheato and many other types of macro algae. If I run it 18 hours a day, it can pull n down to below 1 ppm.. but I wonder how many beneficial trace elements it pulls out - not to mention that it is fairly ineffective at pulling phosphate down as well..
Recently I started using gfo again in a passive, step by step method that has worked pretty well for me. I use it in a fine mesh bag (the new black Red Sea bags) and rinse it well which loses me a fair bit of the very fine material... I don’t mind. Better down the drain than in my system- even still it is accumulating..
the fresh bag of gfo sat in a low flow area for a week, then it was moved to a higher flow area, a week after and another new bag of gfo was added in the low flow area.. then after another week the older bag was moved to a high flow area, the newer bag was moved to the medium flow area and a brand new bag was added to the low flow area. This has allowed me to gradually and consistently reduce p without any yo-yo. Yes, it’s a bit labor intense - and I will turn the high flow bag every couple of days..
each bag stays in the system for 4-6 weeks depending on how often I have to switch out the oldest gfo.
I don’t mind phosguard- the aluminum based product you are using but for the money, gfo is cheaper I think because of its higher efficiency..
As for carbon sources like nopox or vinegar etc... I am not opposed to using them either if they are used lightly and consistently.
I take care of a decades old system with a 8 inch sand bed that was a bit neglected for years.. testing showed that n was way over 100 an p over 1 - not .1.
I used nopox for about 6 months to pull the nutrient down or mostly the n. Then I started dosing potassium nitrate on top of the nopox to get p to come down. As well as some gfo to help. So far it’s working..
N is now about 5 and p is .7... it’s creeping down slowly..
So all this to say that when these products are not over used, they can all be helpful.
I think the biggest downfall of 90% of the products on the market is not the product itself but user error.
We tend to live by the mentra ‘if some is good, then more is better’ but when it comes to reefing, this just isn’t true very often.
I think I like adding a small amount of a carbon source to a system- it charges up a level of the biotope that is beneficial to the reef.. where I’ve started using nopox, not only does it help with n reduction but I’ve noticed a proliferation of very tiny pods on the glass..
The trick is always finding the right amount and not overdoing it..and that can only be discovered by moving in small increments..

Matt,
We are on the same page.

Yes, I agree, the PhosGuard is not as effective as GFO ($ and capacity), but as you say, slower is better.
My thought is the PhosGuard doesn't even need to bring down P. Just keep it from going up. Let the Scrubber and other method bring down P.
I too use the baggie method (in high flow area) not a reactor, and PhosGuard unlike GFO is granular and not as prone to dust.

I need to get my scrubber working better. It's the same as your Fuge with Cheato but more compact and required more harvesting due to size.
It's not dead, but slow. I noticed when I buit the new Tank I set the PhotoPeriod to 12 hours. Just yesterday I cranked it up back to the original 18hrs. That should help.
Another reason is since I built the Scrubber I seeded it with a Macro Algae that is Not Cheato. I would like to throw in some Cheato instead, but am so worried where to source some Cheato from (to not bring in any pests, disease, etc...into my New Tank)

YOU MENTIONED, maybe IRON /Maganeese might start Scrubber, but why would I do that. It might kick off Algae in DT with my N=25, and P=0.25
Water changes must be bringing back some of the required elements for Corals. BUT TO BE SURE I'm not on the LOW Side. I have a Triton ICP Test Kit ready to take a sample and send out for Analysis when the time is right.

As far a carbon source/bacteria. I've been thinking of doing a little like you say. From what I read whether it be NOPOX, AquaForest BioS/NPpro, Vinegar, etc.....People have bad experience when switching from One type of Carbon/Bacteria to Another. Appears one needs to slowly ramp down, before ramping up the other Product/Type. My tank hasn't had any of these, so when I pick one I'll stick to one only, and hope that works to boost the Bacteria.
The MATRIX Media I have will work with whatever Carbon/Bacteria Product I choose. (I would prefer Something I can dose auto regularly out a Auto Stirred bottle vs Daily Hand Drops)

With Live SAND. Tank has none, but one Chamber of my Sump is nothing but 3-4-6 inches of sand and DEAD SPS Rubble (got plenty from years of cultivating Dead SPS)
I'm sure the chamber is alive since there is nice slow flow, and get's it's source water from a pump near Tank Return (with Nutrients/Waste).
No light, but Scrubber has the Light.
I assume that's where my PODS hang around and multiply, since My Mandarin and Copperband continuous eat Pods or things I can't see with my eyes.

Knock on wood. My NEW tank is boring me to tears.
After years of struggle/battles/changes (you know how much), I have nothing to do except watch the SPS frags grow ever so slowly.
I'm not complaining, just have to get used to it.

Actually no issues with any SPS except one. Ice Fire Enchinata. Top looks great and Colorful, growing. Bottom keep bleaching upward. Keep cutting from bottom but stopped cutting, since not much left of Frag.
Must be a tough Coral to Keep since My PacMan, Strawberry Shortcake are not having any issues.

 

[Sam2832]

Hi reefmutt, i saw on farmer ty thread that you were looking for the oregon tort, i have something similar (some problems with them lately).

Let me know if you want a piece, i live on the south shore of mtl.


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[Piper27]

Stuff looks amazing! I had to let things go as well. Funny things looked better after I did. Curious about the Aussie blue stag, would love another picture. Is it similar to the cookie monster or copps azure? Or is it a deeper blue? The tips in your pic make it look very similar.

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[reefmutt]

Hi reefmutt, i saw on farmer ty thread that you were looking for the oregon tort, i have something similar (some problems with them lately).

Let me know if you want a piece, i live on the south shore of mtl.


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Hey Sam, thanks! That’s a very nice offer... I never say no to a blue Coral since it’s my favorite color for corals.
There seem to be two local sources for this so called Oregon tort. It is coming from some people in QC and it is also coming from Toronto. Both claim it is Oregon Tort but I have grown out frags from both sources and they are definitely not OT. If the tort has any hints of green in the body or a fluorescent green rim around the main growth tip corralites, it is not true OT.
Here is one of my larger pieces of my NOT Oregon tort..
It looks very similar to yours..


Still.. maybe we could one day do a swap or something for a few pieces. even when corals look similar, you never really know if it’s the same..

 

[reefmutt]

Stuff looks amazing! I had to let things go as well. Funny things looked better after I did. Curious about the Aussie blue stag, would love another picture. Is it similar to the cookie monster or copps azure? Or is it a deeper blue? The tips in your pic make it look very similar.

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Hey Piper, thanks. Not only did I let things go but I completely abandoned my old dosing regimen and may also abandon my fuge..
It’s been a month that I have been dosing only Fauna Marin UltraBak and Fauna Marin Ultra Min s. 6 ml of each split into two doses, each day. It has completely eliminated n and p is lowering along with some help from rowa phos.
As I increased the dosing volume of the FM products, I kept reducing the photoperiod of my fuge. Now, my fuge is almost completely dark and nutrients have still dropped a little.. all the while, the corals have maintained decent colour and health. I wouldn’t say spectacular color but decent.
I made the change because I wanted to simplify my life and because a local shop is having very good results in his system using them. They contain a carbon source, bacteria and trace elements to promote the bacterial growth. They also contain aminos and vitamins to keep the corals happy in reduced nutrients.
I may play with kno3 additions to add a little n back into the system..
My last readings showed 0 for n and .08 for p.. maybe if I dose a little n, p will drop a touch...
Oh an I recently abandoned my MH as well.. went to t5 and AI Primes...
Several months ago, Bryopsis came raging back into my system. I must have reintroduced it with the addition of some corals or something.. this week I will add fluco again the get rid of it.. once that is done I will see where nutrients go and then decide on kno3 additions..
Ok! So as for the Aussie blue stag- it is loving the new situation. I have not looked up the copps azure or Cookie Monster yet.. I will..
Here are a few pics.. I cannot capture the actual blue of the coral in my pics.. it turns more purple in the pics.. it’s an amazing light blue turquoise. And it’s getting great pe now..
Hers a few shots..

 

[DiscusHeckel]

That blue stag looks super healthy, Matt. I will look into those FM products. I wonder if I can use them in conjunction with TM Facto-Balance and elements.

Have you bought the new version of MinS, Matt? It was released last month or beginning of this month. I read about it on FM's Facebook group page.

 

[reefmutt]

That blue stag looks super healthy, Matt. I will look into those FM products. I wonder if I can use them in conjunction with TM Facto-Balance and elements.

Have you bought the new version of MinS, Matt? It was released last month or beginning of this month. I read about it on FM's Facebook group page.

Hey Bulent, thanks I'm very pleased with that stag. I love the color. Can't wait for it to grow out a bit... then I'll be frustrated by how it's shading everything and I'll want to rip it out! Oh well.. that's reed life!

I suspect using both would be too extreme for nutrient reduction in your case I'm quite shocked at how effective the two products have been. FM suggest 2-5 ml per day per 250 gallons system capacity. I have 350g and at 6 ml per day of each, No3 is completely gone at the moment. I do like the fact that the corals have not been totally shocked by the nutrient drop.
Maybe if you just tried the ultra min s...... however I am still not sure if it has been discontinued... grrr I hope not but it is no longer available on the FM site. It seem to have been replaced by the MINs you mentioned but they seem to be completely different formulations with different dosing levels and I'm not sure MINs can be used with a doser. I'm pretty disappointed that just when I transitioned my tank to a new base system that seems to be working for the tank, I may have to stop.. I could probably buy 5 bottles of the ultra min s and have enough for years but it'd probably go bad..
I've asked on the FM forum about the two products and have gotten no response. I asked in the other reef forum and only got a very vague promotional response for the new MINs without any answers about how the two products compare so I am currently quite frustrated..
I love the sound of MINs and would love to give it a try but I don't think it contains the aminos, vitamins and trace elements that ultra min s contains... unles they are all in there in a more natural form or something.. but like I said, I can't get any information out of anyone...

 

[reefmutt]

Oh and here’s a random shot I took today.. it’s another suharsonoi. It’s cool because you can clearly see the original frag and the all the new growth around it.. it is also currently quite happy.

 

[Sam2832]

Thanks for the reply, they do look really similar.
Good idea for the swap in the future, let me grow some of my pieces and maybe in the spring we could see what we have to offer.
On another topic, i think i read somewhere that you used flatwormstop from kz on some occasions, if so, do you recall any effect on your n and p?
I dosed the product lately with coral booster also from kz and saw a drop in my nutrients.
I asked on others forums but haven't got real answers.
The fws smell like vinegar, it might act like it also.
Thanks


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[Piper27]

Thanks for the extra pics bro, that blue stag looks very similar to the two corals I was asking about. Yours seems to be growing well, but the other corals everyone seems to have trouble with though. Can't wait to see it get bigger . Just let me know when you want it ripped out joking of course.

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[Piper27]

I would love to try some of the FM stuff especially since my fish pop went away and nutrients went up. I can't get a daily dose of vodka and vinegar to help like it has been for years so I just cut back thinking it might be not needed now and is just causing other issues. Anyways I am at the point where I might just start over again once my house is in order or I move. The wife wants all the space in the house for the cat project and I am hesitant to setup something new again. All my acros are in a 100 gallon Rubbermaid awaiting their fate... So hard to break something down when you spent so much time and money trying to find certain corals you like.

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[cFloor]

What's up Matt, thats a beautiful suharsonoi you got there. It's so interesting how a frag will do that. The frag more or less can stay the same while the new growth explodes. Very cool!

 

[Piper27]

That blue stag almost has me thinking it's a hoek, with the colored polyps in the very tips.

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[reefmutt]

Thanks for the reply, they do look really similar.
Good idea for the swap in the future, let me grow some of my pieces and maybe in the spring we could see what we have to offer.
On another topic, i think i read somewhere that you used flatwormstop from kz on some occasions, if so, do you recall any effect on your n and p?
I dosed the product lately with coral booster also from kz and saw a drop in my nutrients.
I asked on others forums but haven't got real answers.
The fws smell like vinegar, it might act like it also.
Thanks


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Sounds like a plan!
I've never tried flatworm stop. I though about it but never actually did. I'm not sure why it would affect nutrients..
I actually have some flatworm stop at home and I'm going to go smell it.. I really didn't think it smelled like vinegar....
Really not sure about that but can't see how it would be a vinegar base.

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks for the extra pics bro, that blue stag looks very similar to the two corals I was asking about. Yours seems to be growing well, but the other corals everyone seems to have trouble with though. Can't wait to see it get bigger . Just let me know when you want it ripped out joking of course.

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Ha! Knowing me, there will actually come a time when I DO want it ripped out.. but it'll be tough for you to get it back over the border!

I would love to try some of the FM stuff especially since my fish pop went away and nutrients went up. I can't get a daily dose of vodka and vinegar to help like it has been for years so I just cut back thinking it might be not needed now and is just causing other issues. Anyways I am at the point where I might just start over again once my house is in order or I move. The wife wants all the space in the house for the cat project and I am hesitant to setup something new again. All my acros are in a 100 gallon Rubbermaid awaiting their fate... So hard to break something down when you spent so much time and money trying to find certain corals you like.

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Man, piper... that's some sort of nightmare scenario I'm envisioning reading that post... vv not working, issues.... -> cat project!?!<- acros in a Rubbermaid.... I am getting heart palpitations just thinking about all this!!!

That blue stag almost has me thinking it's a hoek, with the colored polyps in the very tips.

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I've tried several hoeks over the years and never really had success.. granted this is a new approach I'm in right now.. with the pe, it's hard to really see the corralite structure but hoek wouldn't come to mind for me..
Anyways.. we'll see... hopefully..

 

[reefmutt]

What's up Matt, thats a beautiful suharsonoi you got there. It's so interesting how a frag will do that. The frag more or less can stay the same while the new growth explodes. Very cool!

Hey Connor! How goes? Haven't heard much from you of late.. Even on Instagram.. granted, my social media usage has dropped considerably lately so maybe I missed a couple things..
Yeah, it's cool.. one of the more interesting and sometimes frustrating things about growing frags is watching them develop into colonies. Some are fairly predictable but some just don't do what you'd expect..

 

[reefmutt]

So I got some quasi confirmation that FM Min s is what is replacing ultra min s and can be used it it’s place.
I have not quite got confirmation that it can be used in a doser.. hopefully that will come.
I think this weekend I will remove all of my cheato and do a fluconazole treatment. This will cease most of the nutrient export from algae in the tank and give me a more clear picture of my current nutrient levels with the Bak and Min s being dosed.
I’m doser crazy.. I want all my additions to be on dosers... just so much simpler..

So just for a laugh and to demonstrate how little I actually learned from this thread about learning.. here are some screen shots from the app I use to log tank stats..
Here are the big three:






The app is Aquarimate and I like it a lot.. been using it for a few years now..

I hope the resolution is good enough to actually see the data points
Kind of funny....... in a sad sort of a way!

 

[Sam2832]

Who were talking of palpitations...
Did you lose anything in jan 16 with the alk swing?


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