Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[reefmutt]

They all look sexy to me.

Thanks Bulent.. We needed something to lOOk at.

Looks awesome Matt!!! I'll be glad when my tiny frags grow in :bounce3:

Brian

Thanks Brian. Patience...

Matt....that tank is,starting to look amazing with the colonies growing. Hoo men, I want to see it in a year from now with all those incredible acros! !!!

Cheers
Daniel

Thanks Daniel. I can't wait for this to grow in... It's getting there.. Growth is decent - even with the temp at around 73 degrees..

Some closer shots: these two are getting close to discussing terms of engagement.

A little farther away:

These two have decided to coexist happily, it seems.. So far..


My hidden in the back and hard to shoot rr wolverine

Closer..

 

[Ink]

naso litoratus in my experience have have always eaten bubble algae. They are voracious on bubble algae.

Your tank becomes N limited spontaneously, so why can't You add fishes? I would think the opposite...

Luca

 

[fessoclown]

Amazing pictures, a nice relief after trying to digest all the great info on the last 2 pages!

Love the top-down shot!

 

[Johnyman]

Thank you Luca and Matt for all this info!!!

Matt,
My tank has very low po4. This means that heterotrophic bacteria are limited. It doesn't mean bacteria can't grow, but just their grow is limited. Algae are not limited. Algae are in advantage. Algae thrive.
Every time I added ammonia and phosphate or nitrate and phosphate, I was feeding bacteria, algae and corals. That's why I was seeing corals growing better, but get darken. And algae were doing the same, they improved their growth, becoming more green and resistent (they got harden to be pulled off; I also noticed fishes had harder time to eat them). So I wasn't changing the balance. I added food for everybody, not only for algae competitors.

...

In my case I removed "the bomb". I removed biopellet and quit adding acetic acid. I'll go on adding PO4 in smaller doses. I need to make bacteria outcompete algae, but slowly. Doing it faster, would cause ammonia flow (not the nitrate stock) to be insufficient to corals (ammonia would get completely consumed by bacteria, becoming insufficient for corals and causing STN, and in worst case RTN).

As I said in my first message, my thoughts are fruit of my observations, which are updated everyday by what happens in my tank. They continuously evolve. This can cause problems to me and to people trying to follow my thoughts. I feel this field is very entangling and is mostly what pushes me forward in this hobby, but I don't want to cause any damage to other people. That's why I rarely express my thoughts.

Luca

Well, my tank it´s in the same boat like yours! I´m still battling for lowering NO3, and i´m dosing at the moment vodka+vinegar+MB7 bacteria daily, i was dosing phosphate too (1 drop of phosphate potassium) because it was always zero, but i dropped nitrate from 50ppm to 0,5ppm-2ppm and i stopped dosing phosphate because i saw i very huge grow of GHA .
So now, i still have 0 PO4 and 0.2-2ppm (I can lower 2ppm to 0,2ppm when i wash part of siporax) but i don´t have pale corals, they have a nice colors, some with deep colors.
I dose pappone recipe and phytoplankton 2 times per week.

 

[reefmutt]

Thank you Luca and Matt for all this info!!!



Well, my tank it´s in the same boat like yours! I´m still battling for lowering NO3, and i´m dosing at the moment vodka+vinegar+MB7 bacteria daily, i was dosing phosphate too (1 drop of phosphate potassium) because it was always zero, but i dropped nitrate from 50ppm to 0,5ppm-2ppm and i stopped dosing phosphate because i saw i very huge grow of GHA .
So now, i still have 0 PO4 and 0.2-2ppm (I can lower 2ppm to 0,2ppm when i wash part of siporax) but i don´t have pale corals, they have a nice colors, some with deep colors.
I dose pappone recipe and phytoplankton 2 times per week.

Hey Joao, thanks for sharing that info.. With n of .2 to 2 ppm, that sounds pretty good.. Is it still a 'battle' to lower them? Personally, I wouldn't be trying to lower them any more..
You tank has now fallen into the area of many successful sps tanks: Relatively low inorganic nutrients supplemented with organic input..
Do you have a build thread?
How many fish in your tank?

 

[reefmutt]

Amazing pictures, a nice relief after trying to digest all the great info on the last 2 pages!

Love the top-down shot!

Thanks, man!
Here's another couple for ya..
My nicest ssc. It has begun to grow a bit..


Here's the top of the coral:

And here's what it's doing at the base.. Just started but moving quickly..

I got a few more.. Trying to space them out...
But hang on.... The centerfold is coming, trust me!!

 

[reefmutt]

naso litoratus in my experience have have always eaten bubble algae. They are voracious on bubble algae.

Your tank becomes N limited spontaneously, so why can't You add fishes? I would think the opposite...

Luca

Luca, a few weeks ago, after stopping my cyano by using chemi clean and then commencing kno3 additions, I had begun down a certain ideological path..
I felt that the kno3 was necessary because it had arrested the cyano that grew back within weeks of my first attempt (about 3 months ago) to kill it with red slime remover. Also, because my n has been chronically low in the system, I felt it was a necessary thing..
Thinking that no fish would remove the bubble algea and knowing that the rapid growth of the bubble algea was reducing my n and po4 readings, I felt that adding a Carbon source along with the no3 could/would reduce my po4. And outcompete the bubble algea.
The massive amount of bubble algea I have is an excellent example of nutrient pathways.. How inorganic no3 and po4 can be converted back to organic nutrients. As the algea grows it absorbs n and po4 from the water, thus rendering low readings. As the algea grows (into organic living tissue) and then dies off, the bubbles (organic matter) get decomposed and release the bound n and po4 back into the system. It is then taken up again by algae or broken down by bacteria..
Bulent, (discusheckel) had suggested I do nothing but use gfo to reduce p. This solution achieves my goal in the most simple and elegant way.. Requiring no additions of kno3 or acetic acid.
This is not a bad idea by any means but I did not want to introduce gfo and knowing that my system would probably run out of n, and at that point, render the gfo useless,
I decided against this..
My motivation to add kno3 and vinegar was to reduce nutrients going to the algea by boosting the bacteria levels which (in theory.. My theory) would reduce the growth of the bubble, cyano and bryopsis.
Keeping no3 up during this process along with maintaining fish and coral food input, will hopefully keep the corals happy.

I have heard that naso tangs are good bubble algae eaters, but they are one of my least favorite fish, they are clumsy and they get huge..
However, if I could remove the bubble algea using a fish, this would help convert all of the organic matter produced by dying and decaying bubble algae and it would also slowly shift the inorganic nutrient consumption away from the bubble algae to other pathways.. This is a very interesting alternative...
It does, however, leave me with a large fish I don't really like in my tank and it doesn't ultimately help me deal with my chronic po4 problem.
One thing I have not mentioned is that I (stupidly) set this tank up with 10 year old live rock from a fish only tank that never had any method of po4 control.. I'm quite sure that po4 is still leaching out of this stupid rock!! (Wait.. It is me who is stupid... As stupid as a rock...) but what is done is done... I have, in the past controlled po4 very effective in this system using no3 and a carbon source- this is why I am leaning towards going with kno3 and acetic acid this time as well..
Between my wet skimming, live rock, seachem matrix, dsb and cheato fuge, my system seems very efficient at reducing no3.. It always has been.. This is partially why I have always had trouble with po4. Essentially, I STARTED this tank with a built in po4 problem.... Stupidly... Did I mention I was stupid to use this rock??
Well... Too late.. It's in and the corals are growing all over it..
And like I said, in the past, I've been able to regulate the po4 with a carbon source and no3... And I think I can do it this time as well...
I have begun small doses of vinegar (6ml) daily along with my 12ml kno3 (seachem flourish nitrogen)..
I will probably test today after only two doses just to see.. I will dose this for a week and see if anything has changed. If not, I will increase to 8 or 10 ml. This is a very small amount of vinegar. If, at any point, I see the tank or the corals looking 'different' I will reassess the situation..
Yes, I could probably add a few more fish and probably will but I don't want to just add anything to up my nitrogen production.. When I find the fish I want, I will add them..

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Matt, as I must have mentioned before, I used to have a terrible bubble algae problem in the past too. As you indicated I too observed that there was a positive correlation between bubble algae and PO4. An increase in bubble algae population and Rowa Phos in my reactor requiring replacement always coincided. As soon as I replenished my reactor with new GFO, bubble algae always subsided though never disappeared completely. Hence, I used bubble algae as PO4 indicator.

In these days, I do not use GFO. Instead I use Tropic Marin NP bacto balance to keep both nitrates and phosphates relatively low. Until recently my NO3 was 1 ppm and PO4 was 0.024 mg/l. However, after increasing my fish population, both NO3 and PO4 have increased slightly (2.5 ppm NO3 and 0.046 mg/l PO4). As a result, bubble algae is coming back slowly. I have two huge ones at the moment preventing my Acropora florida from basing out.

Before resorting to PO4 again, I have increased NP bacto balance dosage slightly to reduce PO4 levels back to 0.024 mg/l. If this does not work, then I will use some GFO in small amount to intervene for a short period.

 

[Myka]

myka, there are demonstrations that corals can't absorb nitrate. Corals can absorb ammonia and aspartic acid. Algae (zoox) can absorb ammonia/nitrate and then give it to coral (under the form of aminoacid too).

Luca

Yes, that is more correct than my comment. I didn't know we were getting so detailed at the time.

 

[Johnyman]

Hey Joao, thanks for sharing that info.. With n of .2 to 2 ppm, that sounds pretty good.. Is it still a 'battle' to lower them? Personally, I wouldn't be trying to lower them any more..
You tank has now fallen into the area of many successful sps tanks: Relatively low inorganic nutrients supplemented with organic input..
Do you have a build thread?
How many fish in your tank?

My battle is to maintain that nitrate values. Relatively to the low inorganic nutrient sometimes i have trouble with the phosphate limit, i saw burn tips when i stayed to longer with zero phosphate, sometimes when I started to see a digitata (this is my coral advisor) with burnt tips i already knew i had lack of phosphate so i dosed it, the issue was gone. I dont know why (maybe now i feed more the tank) i haven't seen this issue for months.
I dont have a build thread yet. I have a 90g cube tank with 4 fish : (Regal Angel, Yellow Tang and 2 Clown fish)

 

[Johnyman]

My battle is to maintain that nitrate values. Relatively to the low inorganic nutrient sometimes i have trouble with the phosphate limit, i saw burn tips when i stayed to longer with zero phosphate, sometimes when I started to see my fire forest digitata (this is my coral advisor) with burnt tips i already knew i had lack of phosphate so i dosed it, the issue was gone. I dont know why (maybe now i feed more the tank) i haven't seen this issue for months.
I dont have a build thread yet. I have a 90g cube tank with 4 fish : (Regal Angel, Yellow Tang and 2 Clown fish)

 

[gregkn73]

Happy new year Mat,

Colours of your acros are amazing. As you are of the few reefers, running simultaneously DSB and Matrix, did you came in any conclusion which is more efficient in denitrification,? I run a 60lt RDSB, but recently red ,that denitrification occur near the surface of sand bed so I wonder if it will be better to replace it with matrix or keep it and run matrix in a 6lt reactor?

 

[markalot]

Great lengthy conversation going on.

Matt, when I was tearing apart my scape the Foxface (Siganus unimaculatus) would start to hover nearby and I knew it was time for me to pause while he ate some newly exposed bubble algae. He's that good. He grabs a big chunk and then goes to the corner and chews on it like bubble gum.

I know adding ammonia to a tank with living critters can be dangerous but has anyone tried to add extremely small amounts to see what happens? This should simulate adding more fish.

That last group of pictures is awesome, so nice to see all the happy healthy acros.

 

[mhucasey]

Great lengthy conversation going on.

Matt, when I was tearing apart my scape the Foxface (Siganus unimaculatus) would start to hover nearby and I knew it was time for me to pause while he ate some newly exposed bubble algae. He's that good. He grabs a big chunk and then goes to the corner and chews on it like bubble gum.

I know adding ammonia to a tank with living critters can be dangerous but has anyone tried to add extremely small amounts to see what happens? This should simulate adding more fish.

That last group of pictures is awesome, so nice to see all the happy healthy acros.

There was a guy in Singapore(I think) who couldn't get nitrate compounds because of some law so he dosed ammonia with very good results. There was a thread here on RC.

 

[glaukos]

Awesome pics matt:inlove:
That split fts showed how awesome your aquascape is buddy!
Love the colors and pe of the corals!
Great job:beer:

 

[Ink]

My actual thought is that we determine the balance between N and P with the food we administer.

My actual thought is that in a tank non-carbon limited, increasing the relative quote of P will lead to a N limitation. This appear as a brown film going to a bacterial whitish film.
Increasing the relative quote of N, we will met a P limitation, making algae in advantage. In the latter situation algae dominates. All algae dominates. GHA as zooxanthellae into corals.
In the first situation (N limitation), algae are in disadvantage. The have hard time to grow and they are mostly rotten. This is why they appear brownish. If algae can't thrive, also corals are brighter.

This is my theory. I'm trying to demonstrate it. I'm adding PO4. In few days we'll see if it's right. I'll update You.

Luca

 

[reefmutt]

My actual thought is that we determine the balance between N and P with the food we administer.

My actual thought is that in a tank non-carbon limited, increasing the relative quote of P will lead to a N limitation. This appear as a brown film going to a bacterial whitish film.
Increasing the relative quote of N, we will met a P limitation, making algae in advantage. In the latter situation algae dominates. All algae dominates. GHA as zooxanthellae into corals.
In the first situation (N limitation), algae are in disadvantage. The have hard time to grow and they are mostly rotten. This is why they appear brownish. If algae can't thrive, also corals are brighter.

This is my theory. I'm trying to demonstrate it. I'm adding PO4. In few days we'll see if it's right. I'll update You.

Luca

Luca, so, are you saying that when a carbon source is being used, if you add n or po4, the other nutrient will drop to zero?
This would make sense to me.. I have certainly seen this trend occur in my system. I have always been able to drop po4 when using a carbon source and dosing n..

It seems to me that you feel that a nitrate limited system- a system with 0 no3 and measurable (but low) po4 is better than the reverse.. This is interesting.. It goes against conventional wisdom..

 

[reefmutt]

Matt, as I must have mentioned before, I used to have a terrible bubble algae problem in the past too. As you indicated I too observed that there was a positive correlation between bubble algae and PO4. An increase in bubble algae population and Rowa Phos in my reactor requiring replacement always coincided. As soon as I replenished my reactor with new GFO, bubble algae always subsided though never disappeared completely. Hence, I used bubble algae as PO4 indicator.

In these days, I do not use GFO. Instead I use Tropic Marin NP bacto balance to keep both nitrates and phosphates relatively low. Until recently my NO3 was 1 ppm and PO4 was 0.024 mg/l. However, after increasing my fish population, both NO3 and PO4 have increased slightly (2.5 ppm NO3 and 0.046 mg/l PO4). As a result, bubble algae is coming back slowly. I have two huge ones at the moment preventing my Acropora florida from basing out.

Before resorting to PO4 again, I have increased NP bacto balance dosage slightly to reduce PO4 levels back to 0.024 mg/l. If this does not work, then I will use some GFO in small amount to intervene for a short period.

Thanks for the clarification, Bulent.. I may still search out those tropic Marin products. They are not readily available around me but I'm sure I could special order them..
Why would you resort to gfo at any time when you could just increase the bacto balance to control nutrients?

My battle is to maintain that nitrate values. Relatively to the low inorganic nutrient sometimes i have trouble with the phosphate limit, i saw burn tips when i stayed to longer with zero phosphate, sometimes when I started to see a digitata (this is my coral advisor) with burnt tips i already knew i had lack of phosphate so i dosed it, the issue was gone. I dont know why (maybe now i feed more the tank) i haven't seen this issue for months.
I dont have a build thread yet. I have a 90g cube tank with 4 fish : (Regal Angel, Yellow Tang and 2 Clown fish)

I think that if either n or po4 are truly 0, the corals will suffer..

Happy new year Mat,

Colours of your acros are amazing. As you are of the few reefers, running simultaneously DSB and Matrix, did you came in any conclusion which is more efficient in denitrification,? I run a 60lt RDSB, but recently red ,that denitrification occur near the surface of sand bed so I wonder if it will be better to replace it with matrix or keep it and run matrix in a 6lt reactor?

Thanks Greg.. I don't have an answer for you.. I have the system running for quite some time before adding the matrix.. I couldn't tell which is doing more..

Great lengthy conversation going on.

Matt, when I was tearing apart my scape the Foxface (Siganus unimaculatus) would start to hover nearby and I knew it was time for me to pause while he ate some newly exposed bubble algae. He's that good. He grabs a big chunk and then goes to the corner and chews on it like bubble gum.

I know adding ammonia to a tank with living critters can be dangerous but has anyone tried to add extremely small amounts to see what happens? This should simulate adding more fish.

That last group of pictures is awesome, so nice to see all the happy healthy acros.

Hey Mark, thanks!... I tried adding my Fiji foxface.. Not sure he'll go after the bubbles.. Oh well..

There was a guy in Singapore(I think) who couldn't get nitrate compounds because of some law so he dosed ammonia with very good results. There was a thread here on RC.

I have heard of many people adding ammonia instead of nitrate.. I think it's the preferred inorganic nutrient for corals... I could show you any proof, though... I just seem to have read this many times.. Ammonia is just more dangerous to work with..

Awesome pics matt:inlove:
That split fts showed how awesome your aquascape is buddy!
Love the colors and pe of the corals!
Great job:beer:

Thanks, Mike! The corals are happy at the moment!
Here's my purple thingy.. I guess it's lokani but it's totally flat..

This is a few weeks old.. Still colouring up

Closer..

 

[plyle02]

Right when I was feeling confident, you go an do that
Really though, that deepwater is sick!!! Great stuff Matt

 

[Myka]

Imo, the simple version of the "secret" recipe is to have inorganics going into the tank which the corals can feed on, then quickly removed by the skimmer before they foul. Organics is something I'm not 100% sure on because there is such a range in successful tanks. I think a lot of it is what you want to achieve - either rich or pastel colors. Though ime, successful tanks with VERY low organics need much more inorganics in order to thrive.