Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[mhucasey]

Thanks for the clarification, Bulent.. I may still search out those tropic Marin products. They are not readily available around me but I'm sure I could special order them..
Why would you resort to gfo at any time when you could just increase the bacto balance to control nutrients?

I think that if either n or po4 are truly 0, the corals will suffer..

Thanks Greg.. I don't have an answer for you.. I have the system running for quite some time before adding the matrix.. I couldn't tell which is doing more..

Hey Mark, thanks!... I tried adding my Fiji foxface.. Not sure he'll go after the bubbles.. Oh well..

I have heard of many people adding ammonia instead of nitrate.. I think it's the preferred inorganic nutrient for corals... I could show you any proof, though... I just seem to have read this many times.. Ammonia is just more dangerous to work with..


Thanks, Mike! The corals are happy at the moment!
Here's my purple thingy.. I guess it's lokani but it's totally flat..

This is a few weeks old.. Still colouring up

Closer..

Two more beautiful additions! Have you used any of the Aquaforest salt yet?

 

[Ink]

When N is zero and P is high, there is N deficiency. Add N or remove any P remover.
When N is high and P is zero, there is P deficiency. Add P or remove N remover (do not even know if they really works in seawater).

Matt,
this was in my first message.
In a non-carbon limited tank, adding P will reduce N. Adding N will reduce P. I experienced this so many times.
But there is an important theoretical difference in the N forms.
Ammonia is used by corals, algae and bacteria. Nitrate by algae only.

I just saw a few days ago a beautiful SPS only tank. Undetectable nitrate, PO4 0,05ppm. I don't know if that's a better recipe than others. I'll do my experiments and see what happens in my tank.

My actual thought isn't exactly the opposite from common wisdom. It is common to use GFO because PO4 raise. My tank does the opposite, PO4 spontaneously lowers. This is why I think I need to add them. It's not the picture from the test results that tells us something, it is the trend.
I'm convinced my friend has a setup which lead to P accumulation (probably the combination between ca-rx leaking PO4 and the food composition). My tank has the opposite trend: it enters less P than N (I use 2 parts and a different food). Unfortunately food labels never express the protein/phosphorous ratio.
I repeat, I really don't know if it is better to have a trend with P accumulation. I'm trying to understand it, and I will let You know my impressions.

Luca

 

[gregkn73]

Mat what source do you use to dose NO3 in your system?

 

[Ink]

Mat has written to use KNO3.

I discourage KNO3 in favor of NaNO3, because the latter has non significant impact on elements; using KNO3 usually cause a significant increase in K+.

Luca

 

[reefmutt]

Right when I was feeling confident, you go an do that
Really though, that deepwater is sick!!! Great stuff Matt

thanks, Perry.. I try! It has encrusted well but I don't think it has grown very much... I'll be patient.. I love that piece as well..

Imo, the simple version of the "secret" recipe is to have inorganics going into the tank which the corals can feed on, then quickly removed by the skimmer before they foul. Organics is something I'm not 100% sure on because there is such a range in successful tanks. I think a lot of it is what you want to achieve - either rich or pastel colors. Though ime, successful tanks with VERY low organics need much more inorganics in order to thrive.

Mindy, are you saying that dosing n or po4 at night? I have doubts that a skimmer really removes a lot of inorganic n and p.. I would think a skimmer is more effective and physical removing organics and by extension lowering inorganics..
.. Unless you've mixed up inorganics and organics .. In which case, I would tend to agree..
Excess inorganics leading to more intense colours and super low inorganics leading to more pale colours..

 

[reefmutt]

Two more beautiful additions! Have you used any of the Aquaforest salt yet?

Yes, Matt. I have been replenishing salt as my wet skimming removes it and I have done one 10% wc. Last weekend.. corals continue to be very happy..

When N is zero and P is high, there is N deficiency. Add N or remove any P remover.
When N is high and P is zero, there is P deficiency. Add P or remove N remover (do not even know if they really works in seawater).

Matt,
this was in my first message.
In a non-carbon limited tank, adding P will reduce N. Adding N will reduce P. I experienced this so many times.
But there is an important theoretical difference in the N forms.
Ammonia is used by corals, algae and bacteria. Nitrate by algae only.

-- yes Luca, that is clear, but it's the double negative that is confusing.. Saying 'a non-carbon limited tank' sounds funny.
It is clear that in a system using some sort of carbon dosing, adding either n or p will to reduce the other..not sure I agree that adding n only feeds algea- it certainly feed bacteria as well- especially in a system using a carbon source..--

I just saw a few days ago a beautiful SPS only tank. Undetectable nitrate, PO4 0,05ppm. I don't know if that's a better recipe than others. I'll do my experiments and see what happens in my tank.

My actual thought isn't exactly the opposite from common wisdom. It is common to use GFO because PO4 raise. My tank does the opposite, PO4 spontaneously lowers.
This is why I think I need to add them. It's not the picture from the test results that tells us something, it is the trend.

-- yes. Very important.--

I'm convinced my friend has a setup which lead to P accumulation (probably the combination between ca-rx leaking PO4 and the food composition). My tank has the opposite trend: it enters less P than N (I use 2 parts and a different food). Unfortunately food labels never express the protein/phosphorous ratio.
I repeat, I really don't know if it is better to have a trend with P accumulation. I'm trying to understand it, and I will let You know my impressions.

Luca

Mat what source do you use to dose NO3 in your system?

Mat has written to use KNO3.

I discourage KNO3 in favor of NaNO3, because the latter has non significant impact on elements; using KNO3 usually cause a significant increase in K+.

Luca

Hey Greg, I am currently using kno3- Seachem Flourish Nitrogen. Designed for fresh water planted tanks.. It does impact k levels and therefore you must test k levels..
Mine were very low to begin with and at the amount I am adding, at the moment, I am not concerned about excess potassium.
I will however test potassium levels this weekend.
I also have cano3 on hand, if I need/want to add more no3.
Sodium nitrate, I do not have easy access to, so I have never used it..

 

[reefmutt]

So.. I'm going to post my last couple shots from last weekend photos..
Along with a little new info..
Since starting the vinegar additions- along with my nitrate additions, n has gone down slightly to about 4ppm and po4 is down to .1.
This is in the right direction. I will have to test again this weekend to establish the trend and see where things will level off using 12ml kno3 and 6ml vinegar daily..

Ok the final centerfold shot!! well I think this is one of the best shots I've ever taken in my tank.. Hope you like it as well.. Just love the colours..

One more..


I got these shots because about 6 inches directly below this coral, there is some monti setosa growing.
You can see it in a previous shot I posted.

 

[gregkn73]

..





Hey Greg, I am currently using kno3- Seachem Flourish Nitrogen. Designed for fresh water planted tanks.. It does impact k levels and therefore you must test k levels..
Mine were very low to begin with and at the amount I am adding, at the moment, I am not concerned about excess potassium.
I will however test potassium levels this weekend.
I also have cano3 on hand, if I need/want to add more no3.
Sodium nitrate, I do not have easy access to, so I have never used it..

Seachem flourish
I read that contains also urea. Don't you worry about this?

As always amazing colours

 

[reefmutt]

Thanks, Greg..
Good question!
I have to say that, even though I do not know what urea is, or its impact on a reef tank (or what amount of urea may actually have an impact on a reef tank), I have to say no I am not worried.
I have used this product several times in my reef without incident..
Don't fish expel urea into the water when metabolizing the protein foods they eat?
Maybe urea is an inorganic nutrient that corals actually consume??
I really don't know..
Maybe someone with more knowledge about urea could answer these questions..
Greg, do you know for sure that there is actually urea in this product?

 

[nemodan]

So.. I'm going to post my last couple shots from last weekend photos..
Along with a little new info..
Since starting the vinegar additions- along with my nitrate additions, n has gone down slightly to about 4ppm and po4 is down to .1.
This is in the right direction. I will have to test again this weekend to establish the trend and see where things will level off using 12ml kno3 and 6ml vinegar daily..

Ok the final centerfold shot!! well I think this is one of the best shots I've ever taken in my tank.. Hope you like it as well.. Just love the colours..

One more..


I got these shots because about 6 inches directly below this coral, there is some monti setosa growing.
You can see it in a previous shot I posted.

After seeing these pictures I trashed my phone........LOL.

FANTASTIC !!!!!

 

[Ink]

It seems to me only some species of fishes expel urea. Maybe sharks.

All scientific paper I've read about nitrogen enrichment in corals, I remember (maybe I'm wrong) used ammonia, nitrate or amino acids.

The problem is always the same: who are we giving advantage?

Luca.

 

[mhucasey]

It seems to me only some species of fishes expel urea. Maybe sharks.

All scientific paper I've read about nitrogen enrichment in corals, I remember (maybe I'm wrong) used ammonia, nitrate or amino acids.

The problem is always the same: who are we giving advantage?

Luca.

Correct. Fish expel ammonia constantly throughout the day. Urea is used as a highly concentrated nitrogen source in some additives, it's not dangerous to the tank.

 

[gregkn73]

Thanks, Greg..
Good question!
I have to say that, even though I do not know what urea is, or its impact on a reef tank (or what amount of urea may actually have an impact on a reef tank), I have to say no I am not worried.
I have used this product several times in my reef without incident..
Don't fish expel urea into the water when metabolizing the protein foods they eat?
Maybe urea is an inorganic nutrient that corals actually consume??
I really don't know..
Maybe someone with more knowledge about urea could answer these questions..
Greg, do you know for sure that there is actually urea in this product?

It is written here http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishNitrogen.html


But since you use it for long time with out any problem, I am sure it is OK.

 

[gregkn73]

It seems to me only some species of fishes expel urea. Maybe sharks.

All scientific paper I've read about nitrogen enrichment in corals, I remember (maybe I'm wrong) used ammonia, nitrate or amino acids.

The problem is always the same: who are we giving advantage?

Luca.

Correct. Fish expel ammonia constantly throughout the day. Urea is used as a highly concentrated nitrogen source in some additives, it's not dangerous to the tank.

Well what I know is that "Urea serves an important role in themetabolism*of nitrogen-containing compounds by animals, and is the main nitrogen-containing substance in the*urine*ofmammals.*"

"Many soil bacteria possess the enzymeurease, which catalyzes conversion of urea to ammonia or ammonium ion and bicarbonate ion. Thus, urea fertilizers rapidly transform to the ammonium form in soils."

From

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urea

So I think that urea from seachem flourish ,first converted by bacteria to nh4 and then to no3. But since mat use it for long time, propably the nh4 don't make any harm at this process.

 

[Wrangy]

I give up... you win!


This is literally one of the coolest pics I've seen in a while Matt :inlove: I love the colour of the polyps too

 

[Henry Colf]

Amazing thread Subscribed!!!!!

 

[Ink]

Greg, I dosed ammonia for long time. Anyway I have always avoided adding large boluses of it. While I add nitrate all in one shot per day, using ammonia I prefer to administer it continuously via dosometric pump.

Luca

 

[glaukos]

Love the contrast that the setosa makes as a backround matt
Amazing pic indeed!

 

[.Chris.]

Since I know you love bubble algae so much, let me show you mine.




And believe me, it looks like that all the way to the bottom. I just cleared out a little bit on the overflows and in the drains.

 

[fessoclown]

Ok the final centerfold shot!! well I think this is one of the best shots I've ever taken in my tank.. Hope you like it as well.. Just love the colours..
/QUOTE]

Good lord! Centrefold indeed! I was going to suggest that it may be time to change your avatar but I suppose that's no Mutt.

Amazing photos!