I think you are taking people questioning LEDs as a personal attack which it isn't. Just remember that it's research that says LED has all those advantages but in fact no one has had a LED setup for 10 years. LEDs aren't proven...yet. Maybe they will be but until then they will be under scrutinization because we know that MH and T5 lighting has weathered years of use and still functions great.
LED Lighting. The next big thing?
- Thread starter mikeshook
- Start date
the par is significanly lower then most mh set ups. They compare the PAR w/ a weak 20k shielded bulb...nice comparison. It is also more expensive if you consider the time value of money 2000 today is worth a LOT less then spending that 2000 over the next 10 years.
I think if people want this for lps/sofites then go for it, but don't go for it to save money because you wont...not today.
I think if people want this for lps/sofites then go for it, but don't go for it to save money because you wont...not today.
starmanres
Premium Member
I take it as a flame... Which it is. All I have done is lay out the numbers and sit back and watch these guys shoot holes in it.
As per this hobby, when the first sumps came out - there were people trying to find some reason why you should never put a sump on their tanks - And they still try to justify it on RC every day.
Skimmers - same thing. Ozoners - shoot holes in it all the time.
I feel that several of us have laid out an extremely viable justification for considering LED when looking at lighting systems. That doesn't mean I've ordered one to be installed next week.
To poo poo LED systems with statements like "It's massively more expensive!" "I like the evaporation." "The annual bulb replacement reminds me to change the batteries in the smoke detectors..." perpetuates misinformation.
I have taken the time to address the questions, not because I have an LED fixture or sell them; I wanted to know the answers.
Some of the other superfluous posts just make me shake my head.
Robert
dwculp
New member
I agree, I think LED illumination will be the next big thing in the hobby but good LED lights are a ways off at least 3-5 years. LED lighting is just now coming into the open in other, more conventional markets, it will be awhile before they are a viable option for most people in the near future.
I wont be buying one right now because I cant afford an LED system. If I could afford one, I wouldnt buy one right now either, I will let other, more daring souls do the adventure work.
I wont be buying one right now because I cant afford an LED system. If I could afford one, I wouldnt buy one right now either, I will let other, more daring souls do the adventure work.
Craig Lambert
Premium Member
Agree. Some of these comments serve no purpose in this thread. There will always be those that poke holes in new technologies. Lets give the company a little credit for bringing a ground breaking product to market. We may all benefit in the future from their risktaking.
Kind of reminds me of Microsoft President Steve Vollmer telling his mother he was going to work in the computer field, to which she replied..."why would anyone ever want to buy a personal computer."
Come on now guys and gals. It is exciting to see new technoligies whatever the concept. Whether we use them or not is a matter of personal decision. There is nothing wrong with continued use of tested and proven methods, but there is nothing wrong with trying new things either. This board is supposed to be about information sharing and gathering for improving our hobby. It is not about "my way is better". Let's get back to fiding out whether each of us wants to discover potential new lighting and filtering applications or stick with our current setups. That's all, plain and simple. I will be the first to apologize if any of my posts sounded one sided. I only want more information on everything in our hobby.
jnb
Premium Member
Re: LED Lighting. The next big thing?
I do, been running one since October in place of my 20k XM (SE 250 watt * 2) MH Aquactincs fixture - during that time my SPS (2 acros and red monti all 10 inches or less from water level) has grown happily enough.
btw - I can not imagine most people (most but the diehard sps'ers) would not be happy with the growth I experience under 20k XM 250 Watt SE
One more thing - if you are going to compare cost, you might consider the fact that you don't have to buy timers, etc to control the lights and I don't know what kind of value you should take in to consideration for the ability to dim and dawn to dusk the way this light does...
As far as energy goes, my savings being experienced is mostly due to the heat generated to the air because - especially when the chiller runs pumping more heat to the air and the fact my AC is very inefficient and ends up running too much even set at 80.
I do, been running one since October in place of my 20k XM (SE 250 watt * 2) MH Aquactincs fixture - during that time my SPS (2 acros and red monti all 10 inches or less from water level) has grown happily enough.
btw - I can not imagine most people (most but the diehard sps'ers) would not be happy with the growth I experience under 20k XM 250 Watt SE
One more thing - if you are going to compare cost, you might consider the fact that you don't have to buy timers, etc to control the lights and I don't know what kind of value you should take in to consideration for the ability to dim and dawn to dusk the way this light does...
As far as energy goes, my savings being experienced is mostly due to the heat generated to the air because - especially when the chiller runs pumping more heat to the air and the fact my AC is very inefficient and ends up running too much even set at 80.
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jnb - Thanks for your real world input. That's what i was looking for...Conjecture/Hypothesizing is great and certainly enjoyable, but hoping for the early adopters to jump in. I'm positive that my next new tank "upgrade" scheduled for October will include a LED lighting solution....that is as long as the finanical industry continues to rock the numbers...
reverendmaynard
New member
Instead of continuously shouting out "the time value of money", why don't you supply the calculations that show that spending the money now, and saving all that money on extra bulbs and electricity for a savings of roughly $2000 over ten years is actually going to cost more?
Racso
New member
This thread is a great example of what getting information online is usually bad. A lot of people have a "my way is the right way and the only way" mentality. When something challenges a person's idea of what is right, they see it as completely wrong. If everyone would look at things from a third party perspective, things would be a lot easier.
And lets face it, no one is happy with "I just spent tons of money on X, now Y is here!"
As per price vs product, how come everyone is upset about a better product being more expensive. PC is better than standard fluorescent, but cost more, no one complains about that. MH is better than PC, but also cost much more. No one complains about that. A Ferrari is better than a Civic, no one complains about that.
As for anything, weigh the pros and the cons, then decide which is better for you.
And lets face it, no one is happy with "I just spent tons of money on X, now Y is here!"
As per price vs product, how come everyone is upset about a better product being more expensive. PC is better than standard fluorescent, but cost more, no one complains about that. MH is better than PC, but also cost much more. No one complains about that. A Ferrari is better than a Civic, no one complains about that.
As for anything, weigh the pros and the cons, then decide which is better for you.
ok...If you invested 2000 today it would be 5500 in ten years using 10% interest (which is a conservative figure...I gained about 15% on my investments last year). That is the time value of money. The 2000 is the savings from the upfront cost of mh's v. led's
now istead of that figure lets just say you use the interest each year (200) to cover replacements bulbs and a little bit of electricity. Even if you had to dip into the principal a little for electricity you will still have money left over at the end of ten years. Although the LED's should be replaced well b/f the ten years and that will cost money to replace those too.
I think people are misunderstanding my point. I want people to purchase these to save the rest of us money, b/c further R and D is needed to make these lights more efficient and affordable and I appreciate people contributing to that. However, it does not make sense to buy this light in order to save money. It also cannot compete w/ the performance of a t5 or mh...not yet anyway.
now istead of that figure lets just say you use the interest each year (200) to cover replacements bulbs and a little bit of electricity. Even if you had to dip into the principal a little for electricity you will still have money left over at the end of ten years. Although the LED's should be replaced well b/f the ten years and that will cost money to replace those too.
I think people are misunderstanding my point. I want people to purchase these to save the rest of us money, b/c further R and D is needed to make these lights more efficient and affordable and I appreciate people contributing to that. However, it does not make sense to buy this light in order to save money. It also cannot compete w/ the performance of a t5 or mh...not yet anyway.
Randall_James
Premium Member
So why did you bother too buy Tunze units Jag?
You could have saved $250 Each by purchasing a mag1200 and a mod kit....
We are not looking at long term retirement investments, we are looking at the costs of running our tanks with 1 system vs another.
Time money equations are best suited to retirement planning, not equipment purchases.
Your time money calculation also left out a pretty big factor if you are going to continue to stand by it... your $5500 in 10 years will be worth about $2900 in today's dollars at 4% inflation. ($5500 in today's dollars will require a value of $8141 in ten years to have the same purchasing power at a conservative 4% inflation rate and goes up about $1000 per percentage point of inflation)
This type of purchase better exemplified using ROI and cost of ownership figures (sort of like how we buy equipment for a business)
You bought Tunze units because?
If I bought giesemann lights rather than LED (not much price difference I can assure you) I can assure you there is not much if any savings.
You could have saved $250 Each by purchasing a mag1200 and a mod kit....
We are not looking at long term retirement investments, we are looking at the costs of running our tanks with 1 system vs another.
Time money equations are best suited to retirement planning, not equipment purchases.
Your time money calculation also left out a pretty big factor if you are going to continue to stand by it... your $5500 in 10 years will be worth about $2900 in today's dollars at 4% inflation. ($5500 in today's dollars will require a value of $8141 in ten years to have the same purchasing power at a conservative 4% inflation rate and goes up about $1000 per percentage point of inflation)
This type of purchase better exemplified using ROI and cost of ownership figures (sort of like how we buy equipment for a business)
You bought Tunze units because?
If I bought giesemann lights rather than LED (not much price difference I can assure you) I can assure you there is not much if any savings.
update
update
I spoke to Carla @ PFO today. She provided a lot of very helpful information on the PFO LED Solaris light fixture. Although she could not give me an exact amount of replacement cost for the actual LED's, she did inform me that the lights are coded (each strip) and sold in rows of five. The coding allows PFO to replace the appropriate row of lights to keep the programming of the unit per its original setup. She mentioned that the cost would be relatively inexpensive for the replacements. I did my own searching on the web and found out that similar LED's made by the same company, "Solaris", which are used in police and fire vehicle light bars are around $5 a light. We all know how bright those lights are...... Assuming that will be the approximate cost, we would be looking at $125 for each array of LED lights. If you have the 48" fixture w/3 arrays, that's $375. Not too bad since we would not be buying new lights for about 10 years....?
50,000 hours/10 hours a day = 5000 days/365 = 13.70 years. Round down to 10 years for light reduction over time. (math correct?)
Carla also informed me that the unit's shutdown function when it overheats is approximately 125F (ambient room temperature). This was one of my concerns when I first read the product's specifications because my situation has my lighting inside an enclosed "fish room" for my in-wall tank. I think my room's ambient temperature peak last summer was 95F. Of course, that was with my (2)250MH/(2)54WT5 fixture running which helped contribute to that high room temp. I am no longer concerned about the shutdown feature on the "Solaris".
After my discussion with Carla @ PFO, I have defintely narrowed my lighting selection down to either the "Solaris LED" or the new ATI (8) Lamp T5. I do not mind being one of the guinea pigs for our board. If I select the "Solaris", I will be happy to share my experience with it. All I know, is that due to Northen California's ever rising energy bills, a "SLS Maristar" will be up for sale very soon....
Mike
update
I spoke to Carla @ PFO today. She provided a lot of very helpful information on the PFO LED Solaris light fixture. Although she could not give me an exact amount of replacement cost for the actual LED's, she did inform me that the lights are coded (each strip) and sold in rows of five. The coding allows PFO to replace the appropriate row of lights to keep the programming of the unit per its original setup. She mentioned that the cost would be relatively inexpensive for the replacements. I did my own searching on the web and found out that similar LED's made by the same company, "Solaris", which are used in police and fire vehicle light bars are around $5 a light. We all know how bright those lights are...... Assuming that will be the approximate cost, we would be looking at $125 for each array of LED lights. If you have the 48" fixture w/3 arrays, that's $375. Not too bad since we would not be buying new lights for about 10 years....?
50,000 hours/10 hours a day = 5000 days/365 = 13.70 years. Round down to 10 years for light reduction over time. (math correct?)
Carla also informed me that the unit's shutdown function when it overheats is approximately 125F (ambient room temperature). This was one of my concerns when I first read the product's specifications because my situation has my lighting inside an enclosed "fish room" for my in-wall tank. I think my room's ambient temperature peak last summer was 95F. Of course, that was with my (2)250MH/(2)54WT5 fixture running which helped contribute to that high room temp. I am no longer concerned about the shutdown feature on the "Solaris".
After my discussion with Carla @ PFO, I have defintely narrowed my lighting selection down to either the "Solaris LED" or the new ATI (8) Lamp T5. I do not mind being one of the guinea pigs for our board. If I select the "Solaris", I will be happy to share my experience with it. All I know, is that due to Northen California's ever rising energy bills, a "SLS Maristar" will be up for sale very soon....
Mike
jnb: Thanks for the info on the 4 array configuration.
so, $500 for (4) arrays every ten years. That is still only $50 a year (average) for all four light sources. How much is your average MH ($75-$90)? $75 x 4 = $300 every year. It appears you will save $250/year just in the actual cost of the lamps let alone the energy consumption both directly and indirectly (chiller not running etc...).
I am interested for sure, but would still love to see one up and running in person.
mike
so, $500 for (4) arrays every ten years. That is still only $50 a year (average) for all four light sources. How much is your average MH ($75-$90)? $75 x 4 = $300 every year. It appears you will save $250/year just in the actual cost of the lamps let alone the energy consumption both directly and indirectly (chiller not running etc...).
I am interested for sure, but would still love to see one up and running in person.
mike
Craig Lambert
Premium Member
Remember though, the 10 year figure is based upon 30% loss of par. That's quite a bit, so it might be appropriate to change earlier than 10 years. I would be interested to see the plotted par loss over a period of years....but I guess that won't be available for awhile.
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