leds and LPS color changes

[cfmx]

If I'm to add more blues than I will need to see about selling the 4 whites all together since they are wired to one ballast. I have 2 spare Ecoxotic white already I can use. Then with the sale of the 4 white LED I could pick up either 2 - Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 445nm/Magenta or 2 - Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 445nm/blue (what I already have.
This would give me 2-white, 3-blue, 2-magenta or 2-white, 5-blue.
Oh, the 2 spare whites I have are slightly different than the whites now because they would be Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 12K White/445nm Blue vs 12watts.
Your thoughts?
BTW-thank you for your help!

 

[TropTrea]

Cool whites have less red and more blue than warm whites. The Warm white are very strong in the red part of the spectrum and with too many of them you can actualy get an undesirable effect. Remember that corals only like a very limited amout of light at 685 nm and excess will bleach them out.

 

[cfmx]

In the next week I'll be trying something new. I will be removing the 4 Panorama white LED and replacing with 2 white Panorama Pro gen 2 (dimmable). I will also be adding 2 magenta.

Removing:
(4) Panorama LED Module 24V- 12 Watt 12k White/445 Blue
Adding:
(2) Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 12K White/445nm Blue
(dimmable if needed)
(2) Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 445nm Blue/Magenta

This will give me (3) 12w 445nm Blue
(2) 19w 445nm Blue/ Magenta
(2) 19w 12K White/445nm Blue

Hopefully this will help with the coral colors.

 

[TropTrea]

Someone called these teal LED's. Can someone give me more details or are you referring to the Cyan LED's that are made by Phillips? These are listed as 490 to 520 nm winch would be edge between what most people call blue and the beginning of what most people call green. It is also the wavelength that I noticed is lacking with most with all the white LED's.

If manufacturers data is correct these would be ideal to fill in that spectrum gap with perhaps a 1 to 6 ratio against the blue and royal blue LED's.

Rapid also lists a UV LED between 390 nm and 420 nm that could be used to fill in the extremely short wave lengths that we used to depend on the atinic 420nm florescent bulbs to handle. I would not consider this a teal LED but it could help the florescent coloring.

 

[TropTrea]

In the next week I'll be trying something new. I will be removing the 4 Panorama white LED and replacing with 2 white Panorama Pro gen 2 (dimmable). I will also be adding 2 magenta.

Removing:
(4) Panorama LED Module 24V- 12 Watt 12k White/445 Blue
Adding:
(2) Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 12K White/445nm Blue
(dimmable if needed)
(2) Panorama Pro LED Module 24V- 19 Watt 445nm Blue/Magenta

This will give me (3) 12w 445nm Blue
(2) 19w 445nm Blue/ Magenta
(2) 19w 12K White/445nm Blue

Hopefully this will help with the coral colors.

While I do think you have too much white now I think your going to reduce some of the green and add more red with the combination you listed. Yes you need some red but with most whites your getting a combination of all colors to equal the white that alone will give you more than enough white.

I personaly would run 5 445nm Blues and 2 12K / 445nm blues. wiith NO magenta's (reds)

 

[cfmx]

Its been about a month now since I completely revamped my LED setup.
My old lights consisted of 4-panorama white/blue w 3-panorama blue. My corals lost a lot of there color and turned brown/orange.
Now I'm running 2-panorama pro whiter/blue (white is a lot softer than the regular panorama and I'm dimming these about 50%), 2- panorama pro blue/magenta, 3- panorama pro blue.
I am very pleased w how my corals are coloring up after 3 weeks. My acans look fabulous they are getting all sorts of color, zoas are coloring up and so are my sps. Looking forward to letting things grow out now.
I will try and get some new photos of the tank and corals.

 

[TropTrea]

cfmx can you piont to web page that describes the panorama LEDs? I have not seen any by that name and would love to find out what there spectrums looked like. My suspecion is the panorama white/blue are a higher wave lendght than the pro whiter blue. You are getting a wider range of frequencies hitting the corals now. But without comparing spectrums it is just a wild guess.

 

[victor escobar]

After some time I come back and i am happy to see the post alive with excellent messages of extremely high quality.

My experiment with the reptiles fluorescent did not give the results I could expect. Yes the corals became a bite more red but nothing important. In addition some of the species (lobophillya) did not react at all.

Now reading your posts I think we should try complementing witht light around 480 to about 520 nm. but I'm lost on the possible ways to achieve it.

 

[[WDT]TardFarmer]

I just picked up a T5 retrofit and two 80 watt kz Fiji Purple bulbs. This may bring out the reds that I am missing.

 

[TropTrea]

I don't see how having more blue will give you reder reds...
if the wavelength isn't there to be reflected.. it can't be reflected...
and if its not reflected... than it doesn't look red.

Fed in Corals comes from two completly different sources.

Florescent Red which is basicly shorter wave lenght light that is absorbed by the chemicals in the corals and and excites these chemicals to create light at a shorter wave lenght. With Florescense and the right coral you can light it up with 460 nm blue light and will glow at 640 nm orange. My Predarn to Post Dusk lighting is all 454 nm Royal Blue light and many corals glow different colors including red and orange creating almost a cartoon look as the rest of the tank is nearly black.

The second sorce is reflected Red light which is what your thinking about. But reflected light is mucn more evedent in rocks and fish than it is in corals or even anenomies. Yes there are some corals that reflect light rather than floresce light but the most dramatic ones are very florescent.

Basicly the ideal is to have the perfect balance in light which is nearly impossible. If you bring in to much light on the longer wave lenghts you actualy start washing out the florescense of some of the corals. On the other end of the sectrum if you only provide light for the florescense the none florescent items in the tank become too dark.

Everyone has there own preference on what a good balance is. This is why some perople go with a ration of one Royal Blue to 1 Neutral wite LED, and other go as far as even 6 Royal Blues to 1 Neutral White Led.

My experimental frag tank is now running
Pre Dawn to prost dusk 4 Royal Blues and 2 Near IR's
Dawn to Dusk I'm adding in 4 Royal Blues, 4 Blues and 2 Aqua's.
Then for Mid Day I add in 4 Royal Blues and 6 Neutral Whites.
You could say Im running an overall ration of 3 Blues to 1 White considering all my blues are not Royal Blues.To me it is still too white, at midday.

 

[TropTrea]

After some time I come back and i am happy to see the post alive with excellent messages of extremely high quality.

My experiment with the reptiles fluorescent did not give the results I could expect. Yes the corals became a bite more red but nothing important. In addition some of the species (lobophillya) did not react at all.

Now reading your posts I think we should try complementing witht light around 480 to about 520 nm. but I'm lost on the possible ways to achieve it.

I added two Aqua LED's to see how that would haelp in that frequency range. My only regret is that with just two of these LED's I do get color shadowing from some objects in the tank. But Im experementing on a 40 gallon breeder tank that is not very deep so the LED's are actualy only about 17" from the substrate, and an object 4" above the substrate creates a big shadow if it is a distance away from the LED.

I also added 2 NEAR UV LED's and I think they turn things overly pink. Interestingly people that see the tank comment why is that tank so pink?

 

[cfmx]

Here are some before pics (with old led lights) and after (with new led lights). Most noticable color change is the acans and sps. Colors are so much better now.

before:

after:

before:

after (notice the front sps. The color is more purple w/ green):

before:

after:

tank shot:

 

[TropTrea]

CFMX: I do like the changes from your begfore and after. Without looking at what you changed too and from I suspected you added a lot of Royal Blues and cut back on your whites.

I'm having problems taking pictures under my LED's everything picks up a Blue hue to the camera that is not there to the naked eye. What I realy love are your ACAN pictures. I see so many Acans that look like your before picture but I only see colors like what you have now in pictures never in real life. This shows that good lighting will definatly improve the colors of some corals at least.

While I'm not keen on the use of magentas I'm moving more to a Blue mix on my DIY LEDs. I had 8 Royal Blues, 8 Blues, 2 Near UV's and 2 Cyans and 4 Nuetral Whites on my 40 breeder but I pulled the near UV's because they shifted thing too Magenta and 2 of the Neutral Whites but will probably be adding more whites now as the reds and yellows did get overly washed out with all my Blues.

On a stand by themselves bases I found the Royal Blues and Blues both look the same real blue, But when I had a tank with royal Blues and another thank with Blues next to it there was a definate difference. The Blues looks more cyan, and the royal blues looked more purple. My guess is that is part of your change from old to knew as well.

There is a lot of personal taste in color selection. But the key is getting the corals looking there best in the owners eye.

 

[victor escobar]

When I had the reptiles fluorescent the colors I could see were, as you suggest, more pink-magenta but the corals did not turn neither pink nor magenta this was only what my eyes could see.

My concern is not what I can see but the corals themselves. I still do not think that corals (some especies) can last for long when they turn orange or brownish-green after a long period with blue-white combinations.

In fact I think they perish in a year time without the requiered wavelengh. Not all are able to adapt to the less than satisfactory wavelengths that le current leds provide.

(I'm sorry for being so prescriptive by I have already lost some acans, lobos and blastos)

 

[TropTrea]

When I had the reptiles fluorescent the colors I could see were, as you suggest, more pink-magenta but the corals did not turn neither pink nor magenta this was only what my eyes could see.

My concern is not what I can see but the corals themselves. I still do not think that corals (some especies) can last for long when they turn orange or brownish-green after a long period with blue-white combinations.

In fact I think they perish in a year time without the requiered wavelengh. Not all are able to adapt to the less than satisfactory wavelengths that le current leds provide.

(I'm sorry for being so prescriptive by I have already lost some acans, lobos and blastos)

I do not think that it is a matter so much of LED's not being able to produce the proper wave lenghts as it in our selections of LED's that create the balance which corals like. If you look at the spectrums of the White LED's they do cover the entire visual spectrum. Yet the balance between a Cool White, Neutral White, Warm White and the CRI LED's is very different.

Then there is the fact that different corals do have different lighting requirements. There are many corals that have been found to bleach out from an excess of red light especialy at 685 nm. Yet there are other corals that utilize and need light in the red range.

whit LED's it is only a minor change in the light balance that may be working great for Jack while it is not working for Herman. Where the overall challenge is to find something that will work for you or even better yet for everyone. But with new LEDs comming to the market everyday what was great two years ago will be obsolute today. How many people do your about building LED lighting with 1 Watt LED's today? Most of us are using 3 Watt LEDs today and the new LED's comming out now are 5 Watt and Even 10 Watt LED's.

I think that CFMX's pictures showing the difference between two combinations of LED's on the same tank and corals gives us all a good example of what difference is the LED's will create.

 

[kevlow]

Here are some before pics (with old led lights) and after (with new led lights). Most noticable color change is the acans and sps. Colors are so much better now.

before:

after:

before:

after (notice the front sps. The color is more purple w/ green):

before:

after:

tank shot:

I am curious as to the types of lighting in your pics.

What were the old lights and what are the new lights?

 

[cfmx]

I am curious as to the types of lighting in your pics.

What were the old lights and what are the new lights?

Old lights:
4 - 12w ecoxotic white/blue led
3 - 12w ecoxotic blue led
New lights
2 - 19w ecoxotic pro white/blue led (dimmed 50%)
3 - 19w ecoxotic pro blue led
2 - 19w ecoxotic pro blue/magenta led

I will say the new ecoxotic pro white/blue doesn't have as much yellow as before.

 

[eamike261]

I put 12x Cree Royal Blue, 11x Cree Cool White, and 1x Phillips Red (with no optic) LEDs over my tank about a month ago. 80 degree optics, 9 inches above the water, on a standard 20 gallon tank, maximum of 900mA on both strings, haven't put them above 70% of that though. Used to have 2 high quality T5 bulbs before the LEDs, I forget the brand.

I've certainly had an increase of the orange and green colors. There were some light orange zoas that turned into a deep saturated orange that look amazing now. And some seafoam palys that were pretty much garbage colored but are now a nice teal. The only red I have is red zoas and they haven't changed at all, not sure if that would be different from everyone's acans.

 

[TropTrea]

I don't see how having more blue will give you reder reds...
if the wavelength isn't there to be reflected.. it can't be reflected...
and if its not reflected... than it doesn't look red.

It is very simple haysanstar.

There is florescense in a majority of corals. With florescense light from a set frequency is absorbed by the coral reather than reflected. It then activates a chemical reaction within the coral which allows it to floresce and a different frequency.

In the case that you are confused about the coral is absorbing light at roughly 460 nm (Blue) and then florescing it at 640 nm (red). There have been over 100 descovered florescing chemicals in different corals. Each of them absorbs light from its own specific frequency or wave lenght and then transmits light at a lower frequency or longer wave lenght.

It is also true that some corals do not floresce and we only see them as the color that they are reflecting light. But these are realy a small minority of corals.

And finaly there are corals that have a combination of florescing and reflecting. These are usualy the corals that will look one color under white lighting but as the ration of blue light increases the color will change.

As far as both UV and Red light is concerned these are very touchy areas for many corals. Yes they general will do better with a small amount of these wave lenghts. But in excess these wave lenghts can quickly bleach out corals. In nature few corals are ever exposed to Red or UV light, unless they are extremly shallow water corals.

 

[davidgnome]

If I may..I have been asking questions on why my zoas are losing colors for the past 2 weeks and just came across this..what could i do to make my setup similar to cfmx. My colors have all turned almost exact what youre pictures show. I have a tek 6 bulb elite, with 2 reefbrite leds..none dimmable versions. ati bulbs, as follows

blue+
blue+
aqua blue special
purple+
aqua blue special
actinic

reefbrite 3 w all blue, 48 inch module
reefbrite 3 w 50/50 36 inch
Could i lose the 50/50? or swap in a different kinda t5..i will do anything i just love my zoas and they are all gettin pale..everything is healthy looking open, but my colors are fading fast to looking nothing similar..reds to orange..pinks to brownish pink.etc..? any advice would be much appreciated!!