LEDs... Have they arrived?

[SnowManSnow]

ok, I'm a member of another board (same name) that is much smaller but I'm curious as to what the population here on RC thinks about this subject.

The reason for asking this question is... I want LEDs to work... REALLY BAD haha.. but IME I'm not sure they are ready for long term reef keeping.

I'm DEFINITELY NOT ready to go LED on my sps display tank at this point, BUT I'm thinking of finally doing a smallish (40Gb) tank for frags. From the VERY limited research I've done it seems the spectrum LEDS offer (at least in prebuilt packages) don't offer long term coral growing "power"...

I would REALLY like to use some of the PAR lamps over the frag tank, but there again, I'm not sure about long term sustainability. :headwallblue:


Any help is greatly appreciated..

Thanks for your input.

B

 

[BigAl2007]

I've been LED for over 3 years and today's factory lamps are hands down some of the best light made. I think the new lamps coming out recently and just down the road could re-set the light standard! Fact of the matter is many people adopted LED early on and many MANY were not happy because just blue and white LED leaves a lot of what's needed out of the equation. I feel like with UV's LED and the other colors we're going to see tanks with long-term success. Vivid Aquariums has an 800g that they are doing a test run with MH on one side and LED on the other. It's still early but thus far I think they are seeing some great results from the LED side. I believe many more are popping up all the time showing long-term growth and coloration results that will not just "Say" LED can do it but PROVE that LED can do it.

 

[jerpa]

I believe the technology is more than adequate but I think the lack of expertise on how to apply them is lacking. Although newer fixtures have addressed many of the deficiencies of earlier designs there are still many on the market that are still poorly designed. With the proper research I believe the information is there but it is not as simple as "Get a 250W MH with a Lumenmax reflector and a Galaxy ballast."

 

[Paul B]

I think that in 10 years all you will see are LEDs for almost every lighting application. It is a no brainer, they are cheap to manufacture, produce almost no heat, are extreamly efficient as to power usage, are very light weight, and last longer than any type of existing lighting.
I built my system for about $200.00 to fit over my 6' tank. It uses 108 watts which is
242 watts less than my MH lights and puts out about a third more light. I have had it for over a year and this is the first year in decades that I have not put ice cubes into the tank to lower heat. The corals including numerous SPS are growing much faster than with any other lighting system, and I have had them all from regular flourescent, to VHP to PC to HO and a combination of all of them.
A few years ago I built a chiller but I had to remove it because even in the summer, the tank was too cool.
I even broke all the light bulbs on my boat and soldered in LEDs to replace the existing lamps.
LEDs are free. Well after a few years they are free because MH lamps are $100.00 each and you should change them in at least 2 years. LEDs should last for at least a decade of more, maybe much more. Forget about the electricity savings which should pay for them in a year.
It is a no brainer.

 

[elegance coral]

LED's are absolutely on their way. All other lighting will become obsolete. We aren't there yet though. The initial price is to high, and so far, the ones I've seen, are put together with cheap materials. The LED's themselves may last 50,000 hours, but who cares if the electronics driving them only last 30 days????? I'm sure the price will come down, and the quality will improve. Until then, I'll stick with my old reliable MH's.

 

[mussel and hate]

LEDs are up to the task but you will have to build your own array if you want something comparable to a good MH or fluorescent in terms of spectrum. Most commercial LED arrays lack a proper distribution at the blue end exhibiting a huge spike ~450nm with little else.

The sub 450nm LEDs available to us remain expensive, low powered and ineficient for now. Whether that is due to markets or production capabilities I cannot say.

I remain hopeful that tightly binned near UV and RB LEDs will be made available to us at some point in retail quantities. Then we can custom tailor true full spectrum arrays to suit our personal needs and tastes. Until then it's a question of compromise.

 

[JHawlz9989]

Also remember there are companies out there that are beginning to put an extreme amount of controllablity into the lamps, like the Hyperion fixture from Pacific Sun. While the cost of LEDs is certainly going down, what I'm more excited about is the cost of drivers and other components going down, as well as becoming more capable. At this point, I felt comfortable investing the money in an LED fixture because I believe the most serious issues have been addressed.

There will always be some resistance to new lighting, but as each day passes the case for LEDs becomes stronger. The question becomes when LEDs will become dominant. Right now they are only a competitor to other types of lighting. All in my humble opinion, of course.

Josh

 

[Englishmatt]

LEDs are up to the task but you will have to build your own array if you want something comparable to a good MH or fluorescent in terms of spectrum. Most commercial LED arrays lack a proper distribution at the blue end exhibiting a huge spike ~450nm with little else.

The sub 450nm LEDs available to us remain expensive, low powered and ineficient for now. Whether that is due to markets or production capabilities I cannot say.

I remain hopeful that tightly binned near UV and RB LEDs will be made available to us at some point in retail quantities. Then we can custom tailor true full spectrum arrays to suit our personal needs and tastes. Until then it's a question of compromise.

So no offense (I really do mean that) to the poster....but I see this type of post a lot. Posts like this simply crack me up, basically saying that any joe schmoe can build a LED system more efficiently that a professional business set up to design and build a product.

I absolutely agree that some LED products are total junk, but that's a LIFE statement. What about Cars, TV's, Food....anything? If you pay for quality, you get quality simple as that. Do you think that anyone who bought a Gremlin thought that the automobile wasn't ready for primetime?

Now, I also agree that the knowledge to use the LEDs effectively can be less that intuitive, but the gains can be vast.

I'll use myself as an example. I have a 150G (30" deep) and I have two x Radion MP30w lights. When I first got them I just tuned them on, used a basic profile and off I went. I noticed my Birdsnest and Acro's started to lose a bit of color. Reason - I was blasting them with so much light I was bleaching them.

Then I did a little research on the Ecotech forum and a couple of people had seen great success by dropping the Reds and Greens in the spectrum. I did that, and within 3 days i'm at about 60-75% color regeneration. The actual growth of the SPS has taken off like nuts, but the color suffered a little until I got the lights dialed in.

All my fish, softies etc are looking better than they ever did under MH.

So....if you want to purchase LEDs, then research the specific product array. Don't buy a shitty $200 light fixture, that's not adjustable/customizable for intensity and spectrum contribution, and complain that LEDs suck. Yes, to get into the high end stuff costs money, so traditional MH, T5, PCs or combinations there of make sense for some people...but you'll more than pay for a decent LED fixture in your power bills, or chiller cost to keep the tank cool with the MH lighting.

The Radions (and now a few other high end fixtures) 100% go down to the 420-450nm light range, but they are expensive. Doesn't mean they aren't ready for the hobby, just means if you want leading edge technology, you pay for it. Same with Plasma TVs, then LED TVs and now back to Plasma when they came out.

Unless you've had experience will ALL the LED products on the market...you cannot say "LEDs aren't ready for primetime"...it's simply not a fair and reasonable statement.

It's all about choice. Pay your money, take your choice and be prepared to learn something new everytime you think you've got it all licked.

Matt.

 

[gskidmor]

I have to agree with the person that said the lack of experience...I had a boat load (40+) SPS frags - colonies under 2x250MH HQI pendant over a 65 gallon tank and never had a single one die/bleach on me. when I setup my new tank I have one Radion over a 60 gallon cube and it cooks the SPS. I buy frags from people that have them under dual 400w MH and only the frags from the very top of the those tanks do good.

So there is definitely a learning curve. I've been continually lowering the Radion's output. I'm down to 60% brightness and it will still cook a frag that comes from a tank with a 400w MH...I'm shocked to be sure.

Otherwise, the LED seems to be doing good. while many have started to bleach, they've all encrusted faster than any did under my MH's...though I'm learning, I kinda wish I had stuck with what I know...

 

[gskidmor]

Englishmatt - is that all you did - just drop the red and green? What levels? I did the same thing - I figured because I was buying frags from people with high powered MH I could just turn the Radion's on and let 'em go...

 

[Preston7]

They're not here yet, but will be soon..I hope. The Chinese crap isn't going to cut it. Going with a more thought out fixture is the way to go. I can't wait to see what the new lenses for the Radion do for the fixture. If its as good as they claim, game on!

 

[cloak]

I really don't give a rip. A beautiful reef tank can be created with any of the lighting systems out there. (PC's VHO's, T5's MH, LED)

 

[barry_keith]

I've been running the "crap" LEDs for over 6 months now. I have two fixtures of my 90. Each fixture has 55 LEDs 35 blue 17 white and 3 uv each. I can agree that growth may be a little slower but I can deal with this. I think a lot of people tend to blame their LEDs for stuff that is the result of poor husbandry. A lot of folks have trouble keeping colors and good growth with MH and T5. Just my opinion but I am very happy with my lights, and my corals growth and color under them.


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[barry_keith]

I really don't give a rip. A beautiful reef tank can be created with any of the lighting systems out there. (PC's VHO's, T5's MH, LED)

Couldn't agree more. I think people assume certain lights make the tank, truth is so much other stuff factors in


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[SnowManSnow]

Couldn't agree more. I think people assume certain lights make the tank, truth is so much other stuff factors in


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I do agree with this... I have a pretty decent SPS 120 tank with t5s, and a calk stirrer ... thats pretty much it....

that being said i have pretty darn good husbandry practices that help produce the results I get....

B

 

[Englishmatt]

Englishmatt - is that all you did - just drop the red and green? What levels? I did the same thing - I figured because I was buying frags from people with high powered MH I could just turn the Radion's on and let 'em go...

Yes mate, that's all I did. The Red and Greens do not exceed 15% at the most. At night and morning they are totally off.

That's all I did.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Have they arrived? Yes. Are they close to their potential? No.
Compared to what will be out in 3 years you could say these are A league. A couple years from Triple A and not yet major league quality. That's not to say one of the rookies can't break into the big leagues soon

 

[joelespinoza]

I believe the technology is more than adequate but I think the lack of expertise on how to apply them is lacking.

Absoutely, the misinformation about colors, ratios, and "standard" kit garbage is very hard to dig through, just sorting through the information about colors and ratios required is insane, especially your first time out.

LED's are absolutely on their way. All other lighting will become obsolete. We aren't there yet though. The initial price is to high, and so far, the ones I've seen, are put together with cheap materials. The LED's themselves may last 50,000 hours, but who cares if the electronics driving them only last 30 days?????

I am not sure where you are seeing this information.... Inventronics and Meanwell are both solidly reliable solutions that are fairly cheap, and even independant (like stevesleds) and DIY solutions are available.

LEDs are up to the task but you will have to build your own array if you want something comparable to a good MH or fluorescent in terms of spectrum. Most commercial LED arrays lack a proper distribution at the blue end exhibiting a huge spike ~450nm with little else.

Yes, there are some decent products out there, but even high end commercial grade light fixtures are limited. Sure they have fancy controller options, but from what I have seen they mostly follow the same bad pratice of using low CRI cool whites and then they try to make them render colors better by adding colors that were never required in the first place as a marketing gimmick.

So no offense (I really do mean that) to the poster....but I see this type of post a lot. Posts like this simply crack me up, basically saying that any joe schmoe can build a LED system more efficiently that a professional business set up to design and build a product.....

Absoutely people can put together better systems then professional businesses. You know why? Because people can figure out what they specifically need whereas a company has no clue. Its the same reason I build my own computer instead of getting one from Dell, this is not uncommon.

As an example, I can design a LED light for about $350-400 using high end LEDs and drivers that produces more light and is more efficient then a $700-800 Radion fixture. Not only will the fixture itself be more efficient but I can control the configuration, the colors, the light density and the size/shape. So while you have to have 2 Radion lights driven at 50-60%, I could make a single fixture that does the same thing better for around 1/4 the cost of your solution.

The beauty of DIY is customization and flexibility, in cost, quality and quanity. Of course that means plenty of people will do a terrible job and spend tons of money on it, but for some it is DEFINATELY worth it and LED lighting is still so young I definately feel that I can make a far better fixture then any available at any price commercially.

I think that in 10 years all you will see are LEDs for almost every lighting application..... LEDs are free. Well after a few years they are free because MH lamps are $100.00 each and you should change them in at least 2 years. LEDs should last for at least a decade of more, maybe much more. Forget about the electricity savings which should pay for them in a year.
It is a no brainer.

Yes, this right here is the clincher.... I very much understand the innate desire to want to wait for something better to come along, but honestly LEDs are so much more efficient right now I dont see the point of waiting in this case, especially if you are unhappy with your current light solution.

I was talking to some kid at school the other day why has a 125 Gallon tank with an 8 bulb T5ho fixture and is unhappy because he doesnt feel he has enough light to grow the corals he wants. He currently changes bulbs every 8 months and told me he spends about $300 a year on bulbs. I told him I could make him a 180w fixture for about $600 that could grow sps corals sitting on the sand, however he wants to wait 3-5 more years for LEDs to "come into their own".

He will waste $300 a year on bulbs and $135 a year on electricity (over what the LED unit would consume). In 3-5 years he would have thrown away $1305-$2175, and be exactly where he is now, with nothing to show for his money.

For me this seems like a terrible waste, why not just go LED now and then go more advanced LEDs later? In this example he could have easily bought new LED fixtures every 2 years and even if he didnt recoup a dime off his old ones, still saved quite a bit of money, and had better lighting.....

 

[Dave Thebrewguy]

It depends on how you define "arrived," but I'd say they have.
Are LEDs the absolute best lighting out there, surpassing all others? No, fluorescents are available with more options and can fit almost any need that an aquarist might have. Fluorescents are probably the best "stand-alone" choice, the only real downside is that you need a lot of them to get sufficient quantities of light.
LEDs are argueably number 2, right behind fluorescents, as there are enough options that they can often be used as a stand-alone and they can look really good with just a T5 or 2 as an accent. LEDs are also capable of putting out a ton of light from a small source and are very efficient.
I'd put LEDs ahead of MH, I don't think I've ever seen a MH that could look good on it's own (without an actinic of some sort), they produce absurd amounts of heat and are, in general, inefficient.
So, there ya have my picks. Fl, LED, MH, in that order. In my 25 years of keeping fish I've used just about everything, NO Fl, incandescent, VHO, MH, PC, T5, but no LED, yet. But give me a month or two and that will change, I've done my research and will be building my first module soon. The first will be an add-on to my current T5 lighting but I plan to follow with additional modules that will replace my T5s.
Is it possible that I won't be happy with my LEDs? Sure, but that would be my own fault for designing them that way. I've seen LEDs that were done right so I know it's possible.

So no offense (I really do mean that) to the poster....but I see this type of post a lot. Posts like this simply crack me up, basically saying that any joe schmoe can build a LED system more efficiently that a professional business set up to design and build a product.

No offense to you, but posts like this crack me up. Maybe you don't have the ability to build your own stuff, but there are plenty of people who don't have that problem. If I could get fresh roasted coffee locally that met my standards, I wouldn't take the time to roast my own. If I had been able to find a dining room table I could be happy with, I wouldn't have had to build my own. If I had been able to find a contractor that I thought could install a kitchen to my standards, I wouldn't have installed it myself. LEDs aren't rocket science, research what spectrum is needed, find emitters that produce the same spectrum, do a little simple wiring, it's not difficult. Sure the manufacturers can make a great product, they can also make crap, either way they have a ton of overhead and still need to make a profit. I don't need to make a profit, I enjoy doing it and take pride in the end result, if I save a few bucks in the process it's a bonus.

I'd love to sit here and type out a few more examples of things that a hobbyist can do as well as the pros, but I've got to get back out to the garage, I've got a kettle of beer going and I wanted to work on my track car today.

 

[BBRT]

After buying a LED Light for my frag tank and seeing the growth and color produced, Im all for LED lights, Not to mention the awesome shimmer you get out of them, makes looking at the tank a lot more enjoyable.