LEDs... Have they arrived?

[Englishmatt]

As an example, I can design a LED light for about $350-400 using high end LEDs and drivers that produces more light and is more efficient then a $700-800 Radion fixture. Not only will the fixture itself be more efficient but I can control the configuration, the colors, the light density and the size/shape. So while you have to have 2 Radion lights driven at 50-60%, I could make a single fixture that does the same thing better for around 1/4 the cost of your solution.

The beauty of DIY is customization and flexibility, in cost, quality and quanity. Of course that means plenty of people will do a terrible job and spend tons of money on it, but for some it is DEFINATELY worth it and LED lighting is still so young I definately feel that I can make a far better fixture then any available at any price commercially.

Right....MY quote was that "Could any Joe Schmoe...blah blah blah...", not "Could someone with solid light knowledge and experience....blah blah blah"...

So I agree with you..."YOU" probably could build a better unit....I could not.

Not going to argue about the $700 cost for the Radion, but when you spend $400 to build your awesome unit...unless you have an APEX or similiar to control it, you'll still need to spend additional $$$ on a User Interface or such.

For someone with an existing setup....no big deal. But for someone new to the hobby...you could build the Radion experience (Lights, UI, customization, flexibility, communication to the pumps...etc...) for less that they cost. Your labor isn't free, not really.

Anyway...this isn't a debate on LED products, it's whether the technology has arrived.

I believe it has, but hte knowledge is lacking to fully utilize the potential.

Cheers,

Matt.

 

[joelespinoza]

Right....MY quote was that "Could any Joe Schmoe...blah blah blah...", not "Could someone with solid light knowledge and experience....blah blah blah"...

So I agree with you..."YOU" probably could build a better unit....I could not.

Anyone can learn to solder. Anyone can learn how to mix arctic silver thermal paste in a 50/50 ratio. Thats the most difficult part about the actual building of the LED light.

My first light display light was not perfect, I spent too much money and my LED choices were not what I would use if I knew what I know now. There is a TON of misinformation out there and it is very hard to sort through. Thats why I always recomend NOT building a big display tank build first, start off with small nano lights and work up.

However my display tank light works, it grows corals great and while I am not 100% happy with the color of it, the color sure looks better then washed out premade units I have seen, even premium ones.

The problem building LEDs is information, I assume you are refering to this Radion for $750?

http://www.marinedepot.com/EcoTech_...ures-EcoTech_Marine-EM3111-FILTFILDTN-vi.html

•8x Cree XP-G Cool White LEDs run at 5w each
•8x Cree XP-E Blue LEDs run at 3w each
•10x Cree XP-E Royal Blue LEDs run at 3w each
•4x Cree XP-E Green LEDs run at 3w each
•4x Osram Oslon SSL Hyper Red LEDs run at 3w each

The reds and greens are not needed if you use decent CRI whites, the windex blue LEDs are not something I want and they are not that useful for photosynthesis, so basically there are 26 useful LEDs of which 8 are of limited use.

A Luxeon 28 LED fixture with all Royal Blues and 2700k Warm whites would look better and produce more PAR. So lets design something that isnt junk to begin with:

$20.93 ($2.99 x 7) 2700k Warm Whites http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-Warm-WHITE-3-Watt-LEDs-2700K-Luxeon-ES-warm-2700.htm

$62.79 ($2.99 x 21) Royal Blues http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-ROYAL-BLUE-3-Watt-LEDs-Philips-royal-blue.htm

$13.99 Driver for whites http://shop.stevesleds.com/The-Single-Dimming-LED-Driver-Driver-Single.htm

$29.88 Drivers for Royal Blues http://shop.stevesleds.com/The-Triple-Dimming-LED-Driver-The-Triple.htm

$12.60 ($0.45 x 28) Optics http://shop.stevesleds.com/Optics-for-3W-LEDs-30-60-90-LED-Optics-for-3W.htm

$8.00 ($0.20 x 40) Wire http://shop.stevesleds.com/22-Gauge-Driver-Power-wire-22-ga-wire.htm

$36.78 (10" x 12" heatsink) http://www.heatsinkusa.com/products/10.000"-Wide-x-12"-Long-Heatsink.html

All these parts are $184.97

The following parts that are good for more then 1 light:

$24.99 Power supply, capable of driving 2 of these setups http://shop.stevesleds.com/Switching-Power-Supply-200w-25-83A-S-201-Switching-Power-Supply.htm

$14.99 - 1 x Arctic Silver (good for at least 75-100 LEDs) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835100005

So basically the first light would cost $224.95+shipping and the second would cost and additional $184.97. So $409.92+shipping, even if you toss in 40 bucks for an Aurdino controller and 50 bucks for plexi to build a cover you are still at $500. So for 1/3 the price of 2 Radions you can have 2 lights that look better and produce more par.

Just as a guideline, this sub $500 pair of lights would be plenty for a 120 gallon tank, although you may want to choose different heatsink sizes depending on the tank dimensions.

Thats why I say that DIY is really the best way to go.

 

[BeanAnimal]

produce almost no heat

This is a huge misconception that is beig endlessly propogated. LEDs produce a tremendous amount of heat. For every watt pumped in at least 2 watts of heat is directly produced at the back of the LED die and sent to the heatsink.

The do not RADIATE much heat in the form of IR or UV, but they do CONDUCT most of the power they consume as heat.

The chart below is CURRENT.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So no offense (I really do mean that) to the poster....but I see this type of post a lot. Posts like this simply crack me up, basically saying that any joe schmoe can build a LED system more efficiently that a professional business set up to design and build a product.

Many (most) of the DIY builds output a pretty crummy (if not useless) spectral profile. That said, so do most of the commercial products.

To that end, once DIYers are given the tools (understanding), they often are able to build products that outperform niche market products, as profit is not a motive. Commercial products sold to a niche market are crippled by cost consideration.

The real behind the scenes "joke" is the perception that this hobby (on a global scale) has a big enough footprint for companies to R&D high end products and stay profitable. Exactly how many $3,000 LED setups do you think can be sold over 2 year period to pay for the R&D and producion costs, let alone profit. The technology evolves so fast that the currently selling products are using stuff from well over a year or two ago. The DIYer (again) is not crippled by this. This (and any similar SMALL NICHE hobby) is littered with the carcasses of companies that tried to produce quality products and remain profitable. There are just not enough buyers, let alone repeat buyers

 

[joelespinoza]

The real behind the scenes "joke" is the perception that this hobby (on a global scale) has a big enough footprint for companies to R&D high end products and stay profitable.

Yep, honestly looking at the products produced by some of these companies, like the Radions, I feel that about 90%+ of the R and D was having a minimum wage kid read forums like this one.

The idea of "The Professional" is a comforting thought, people want to believe that other people know what they are doing, you want to believe the guy who fixes your plumbing, or your roof, or the guy who designed the seatbelt system in your car, or even your doctor are all "professionals" and are somehow immune to the mistakes we would make, when in reality they have probably made all the exact same mistakes we would make, except they are just here to make a buck, whereas you are doing it to make sure it works like you want it to.

Having been "The Professional" in many jobs and having seen the kind of work that other "Professionals" do, I can tell you that 99% of the time its a bunch of crap. People go to work to make money, people make money by making what sells, not what is best, or better, or even really good. Just what sells.

 

[grigsy]

Have they "arrived" - yes.

Are they better reef tank lighting compared to Metal Halides - No.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yep, honestly looking at the products produced by some of these companies, like the Radions, I feel that about 90%+ of the R and D was having a minimum wage kid read forums like this one.

The idea of "The Professional" is a comforting thought, people want to believe that other people know what they are doing, you want to believe the guy who fixes your plumbing, or your roof, or the guy who designed the seatbelt system in your car, or even your doctor are all "professionals" and are somehow immune to the mistakes we would make, when in reality they have probably made all the exact same mistakes we would make, except they are just here to make a buck, whereas you are doing it to make sure it works like you want it to.

Having been "The Professional" in many jobs and having seen the kind of work that other "Professionals" do, I can tell you that 99% of the time its a bunch of crap. People go to work to make money, people make money by making what sells, not what is best, or better, or even really good. Just what sells.

Yup...

 

[Paul B]

This is a huge misconception that is being endlessly propogated. LEDs produce a tremendous amount of heat

Bean, nice chart, OK let me rephraise. Leds, produce less heat in one spot compared to MHs and they don't transfer much of that heat to the water.
Now let me say something from experience, I don't have a chart, but I have had a tank for almost 60 years with every type of lighting from whale oil to LEDs :eek2:
For all of the 40+ years I have had my tank running with incandescent, VHO, PC, MH and LEDs this is the first time in all of those decades that I have not had to add ice cubes to my tank to cool it down. Today here in NY it is 94 degrees. I have no chiller or any other means to cool the water and my reef is running at 80 degrees. The space my tank is in is not air conditioned and that space is also 80 degrees. I am hot but my tank is cool. With the MH lights which I had for maybe 12 years the tank today would be running about 94 degrees and I built a chiller to use for hot days. I no longer use that chiller because now the tank would run too cold.
Chart or no chart, LEDs do not transfer much, if any heat to a tank.
My MH lamps would give off heat you could feel a few feet away. Being an electrician I have installed MH fixtures on a large portion of the buildings in Manhattan and those suckers are hot.
The LED fixture that I built uses aluminum tubing for a heat sink, that heat is drawn through the tubes by a fan and is directed away from the tank
(to an exhaust fan) The fixture itself is fairly cool and if you put your hand in front of the LEDS you will hardly feel any heat. :smokin:
But Bean is correct, watt for watt they do make some heat, it is just easier to keep it away from the water with LEDs

 

[jazzmanb]

id say the kessil 350 led fixture looks a lot like metal hallide lighting, but even sharper in terms of color. Its the best, most natural looking led, just like a hallide. Also gives a really nice natural shimmer unlike most all other led fixtures which feel like your at a disco. With the arrival of the kessil fixture id say theres no more need for high energy ,high heat hallide lighting. try the kessil 350:]

 

[jazzmanb]

id say the kessil is an led that is inspired from hallide lighting. most leds are far apart and while cover more area, look somewhat unatural even with nice color.

 

[Paul B]

I don't know what that is because I would rather build my own.

 

[buffalo123]

The issue with leds is spectrum we need to know what works well everytime. Percentage of greens reds, uv, white , blues, yellows etc. Now reds, uvs and some green are added but are they needed?
The advantage the diyers have is they can add new leds as they prove to be useful. I plan on trying leds soon and getting solid information based on solid sresults not that easy. As most know this hobby seem to always have numerous ways of getting good results

 

[cmantis]

Yes, mine arrived just checked the DHL tracking! Now can't wait to get home and unbox them.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Bean, nice chart, OK let me rephraise. Leds, produce less heat in one spot compared to MHs and they don't transfer much of that heat to the water.

Much better!

Less heat transfer to the water... as they don't radiate any IR

Chart or no chart, LEDs do not transfer much, if any heat to a tank.

You mean don't "radiate" much heat to the tank

Thanks for being a good sport Paul... I know you know that I know that you knew what you were trying to say. I was making sure that the rest of the folks did not get the wrong idea

 

[Paul B]

You mean don't "radiate" much heat to the tank

Bean, now don't get all semantical on me. I am a lot older than you :bum:

Radiate, transfer, shovel, E mail, who cares as long as the heat don't go in the water. :headwallblue:

 

[Stolireef]

This is a timely thread. Just switching back to MH/t5 from Radions. I've posted elsewhere on this but to make a long story short, I think the Radions are a great fixture but I don't think we've really figured out the right LED mix yet (or at least, I haven't). My basic sense after 7 months is that the Radions are missing something and that it may have to do with the fact that they don't hit the 'wavelengths between the wavelengths'. It's kind a digital vs. analog comparison. Then again, after the switch (which will take place in about two weeks), I may see no difference at all in growth/coloration in which case we'll all know it's really that I'm just rotten at this hobby.:rollface:

 

[naterealbig]

I vote no, the LED's have not arrived. I have seen many LED fixtures over tanks, and I would not even consider purchasing one at this point. Why?

1. LED's create weird "shadows" in the tank. When looking at live rock or coral, I can see different lines of color (blue, white, purple - I'm sure there's a term for this, just don't know what it is). To me this looks unnatural and ugly.

2. The colors may be there, but they are just not as bright as halides, despite the fact that many people are bleaching their corals with them. When I look at my tank, it's bright and lights up the entire room. I just haven't seen the same effect with LED's - cheap or expensive, DIY or commercial.

Give me an LED that looks just like a 250 watt Radium, or an ATI with a good bulb combo without the crappy LED shimmer and shadows, and I am converted.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

ice cubes in a tank? I would go back to gold fish. Do you guy not keep your aquarium indoors with central air? Guess living in texas you wither have central air or die. We take it for granted, maybe..

 

[epicurus84]

This is easy.

Are leds good enough. YES, nobody can argue with that. A couple of fair questions still exists.

Can a led ficture bought today stil sustain the same corals in about 5-7 years. If so, you got your money back. if not you (and i) lost money buying led fixtures.

The current problem with lighting (don't know the US, but in the Netherlands it is) that you buy a lamp saying 7 watt equals 60 watt old style. However what you want to know is the amount of wats and the lumen. Added with the coloring and maybe par for reef keeping. Since 350 watt led is still 350 watt. Which is a lot of power still.

 

[Paul B]

I can see different lines of color (blue, white, purple - I'm sure there's a term for this, just don't know what it is).

I call it cool

ice cubes in a tank? I would go back to gold fish. Do you guy not keep your aquarium indoors with central air?

I live on Long Island in NY and do not have or need central AC. I have AC in the house in wall units but it doesn't get 120 degrees here like Texas. My reef is in my finished basement where it stays about 80 degrees. The tank has been running there for about 36 years with no problems but with MH lights I did add ice cubes. Actually a frozen plastic gallon jug. But I am new to this so whatever.
I also added them to my goldfish tank. :lol2: