LEDs... Have they arrived?

[gskidmor]

Actually, many semi's don't produce more than 250HP, so on average, porsches produce more HP than a semi. Semi's produce huge amounts of torque...

As for being argumentative, I would have to agree to some extent - when this community is talking about heat, they're talking about heat that is put in to the tank, which MH puts in more than LEDs. I think the context needs to be taken in to consideration when arguing a point. Yes, on purely academic grounds, LEDs can produce as much heat as a similar wattage MH, but that heat doesn't go in the tank, making planing simpler.

 

[James77]

That heat still goes to the room and increases ambient temperature. Most posts I see say LEDs produce no heat. It's pretty easy to say LEDs impart far less heat to the water than halides, rather than saying they produce none. Doing so just gives people more knowledge, since there are quite a few that actually believe no heat is produced with LEDs.

 

[gskidmor]

It does go in to the room, but that's much easier to deal with - open the windows. I live in Irvine and when I first moved here, I used my MH setup I had - if I didn't run the AC during the day, the temp of the tank would hit 86 - 88 by the middle of the day even with the windows and doors open and so far, the temps here haven't been above 76/78 - I needed additional cooling. When I switched to my Radion, my heaters have to actually come on to keep the tank at 78 degrees - I no longer have to run my apartments AC.

 

[gskidmor]

And for all of you reefers suffering under 100+ temps - definitely don't follow my advice and open your doors and windows during the day;-)

 

[sirreal63]

That's a pretty yellow looking 10 and 20k mix, more like 6500k or extremely old bulbs. A 10k should look more like this with no supplementation.

How old are those bulbs Joel and what ballast is running them?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Actually, many semi's don't produce more than 250HP, so on average, porsches produce more HP than a semi. Semi's produce huge amounts of torque...

I don't know that I have ever seen a tractor with less than 350Hp (sure they do exist though) and most that I have been around are between 425 and 500

To that end, yes it is likely that many Porsches make more HP than a tractor I parroted the example given for the sake of simplicity.

As for being argumentative, I would have to agree to some extent - when this community is talking about heat, they're talking about heat that is put in to the tank,

Again, I have not been AT ALL argumentative. I have posted a simple fact and was sure to include context. If any of you see an argument, it is because you are looking for one by applying the fact in a context to derive an argument.


As for the community perception. Wishful thinking, but sadly not true! Most folks have been led to believe (no pun) that LEDs don't really produce much heat at all. To the point that MANY go as far as explaining that the heatsinks are "cool" proving that there is no heat. I would not take the time to post the FACTS if I did not see so many misinformed people. The more the facts are pointed out, the more the "community" will grow in knowledge.

 

[Butcherman]

LED's all the way

 

[BeanAnimal]

Here is a fun little color comparison, Both of these are actually fairly acurate representations of reality

Joel, none of us see what you are seeing. Each of our monitors shows color VERY differently based on the type, age, color temperature settings, RGB balance (hue, saturation etc), software color profile, etc.

Photos are 100% useless for attempting to convey accurate (or even reasonably accurate) color rendering of lighted aquarium.

That said, you asked:

If you saw both of these tanks without any other experience which light would you think makes the critters look better?

Respectfully (you asked), The Metal Halide tank looks natural and somewhat balanced, the LED is, well, extremeley ugly... Not beating up your hard DIY work at. To that end, if you are happy then that is all that matters. The "blue" washed out LED look is simply something that does not appeal to me.

90 gallon plexi tank with 750 watts of metal halides (2 10,000k and 1 20,000)

55 gallon glass tank with the equavilent of 6 Cree Royal Blues driven at 1000ma, and 2 Cree Neutral white driven at 1000mA (about 24 watts total), more light makes everything look better, but makes pictures impossible:

 

[bhazard451]

Joel, none of us see what you are seeing. Each of our monitors shows color VERY differently based on the type, age, color temperature settings, RGB balance (hue, saturation etc), software color profile, etc.

Photos are 100% useless for attempting to convey accurate (or even reasonably accurate) color rendering of lighted aquarium.

That said, you asked:

Respectfully (you asked), The Metal Halide tank looks natural and somewhat balanced, the LED is, well, extremeley ugly... Not beating up your hard DIY work at. To that end, if you are happy then that is all that matters. The "blue" washed out LED look is simply something that does not appeal to me.

The point he was trying to make, is that with 24 watts, you can achieve brightness similar to 750w of Halides for picture taking.

If you threw in 240-360 watts of leds over that tank, and used the coloring of leds how you wanted, you can achieve the same output and look as the MH.

More "tinkering" is involved with leds, but after switching to them from MH, I'll never go back. They have too many benefits over MH, and I've had similar results in growth and color... without the heat, bulb changes, and electricity cost.

 

[joelespinoza]

My point was actually the look of the corals, if you look at my tank, everything looks brilliant, and everything in the MH tank looks washed out. Look at the green star polyps on the right side of the MH tank. They look brown, however I know for a fact they are actually metallic green star polyps. Look at the brilliant green Zoas behind them. Look at anything in the tank.... Oranges and yellows look good, pinks are ok and everything else looks like junk.

As I said before this is not a statement that MH are worse or better then LEDs, I am just trying to drive home how silly it is to make a judgement about a lighting technology, especially one as incredibly flexible as LEDs, by looking at one or 2 fixtures in person. This is something that I feel happens all too often.

To address the questions about the lights (which wasnt my point but I will do it anyway), I dont keep my lights that blue except for a couple hours of moonlights. However it is simply not possible for me to take accurate pics of my tank when the lights are on how I run them, other LED owners will feel me on this one I am sure.

I am actually beginning to wonder if photos of LEDs are a more accurate way to judge how bright they are, rather then viewing them with the naked eye.

Its not really the abundance of blue that washes things out so much as the lack of decent CRI white. So when you consider the fact that there is the equivilent of 2 3w white LEDs lighting my whole 55 gallon tank, its no wonder it looks a little washed out, but I still feel the color pop on the corals is thousands of times better then the MH setup.

The MH setup uses 1 20k bulb and 2 10k bulbs. I know they were changed within the last 3 months. I dont know what brand they were or what type of ballasts they use, its a public aquarium and I sometimes run into the guy who takes care of the upkeep on it.

 

[Porgy Bait]

I think the most attractive aspect of LED lighting, for me, is that I can now have a tunable array of light. By combining different wave length LED's and the intensity of them I can the tailor the light that enters my tank and adjust it to what I like and what supports the growth levels I want to achieve. Adjustments can be either by eye, the use of light measuring meters, or controlled comparison experiments. True you could adjust the height or use light filters with current systems to get the same effect but with LED's it just seems easier with less variables.

 

[Luxo]

Not relevant to the topic, but honestly I could care less what my "carbon footprint" is. :bigeyes: My only real motive for reducing energy consumption is purely monetary... That is, I use as much as I can afford to buy
QUOTE]

Bean, for a guy that has been around the hobby for so long and people look up to on RC this is a wrong statement to make!
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts in the past but I have to say I'm disappointed!
We all should try to do our bit to reduce polution for the sake of the animals we love.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[jerpa]

The point was, when we make statements regarding choices others make, we often find ourselves on squishy ground if we examine the logic from a broad point of view

Just sayin'. We should stick to the LEDs...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Bean, for a guy that has been around the hobby for so long and people look up to on RC this is a wrong statement to make!
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts in the past but I have to say I'm disappointed!
We all should try to do our bit to reduce polution for the sake of the animals we love.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave,

I warned you about your footing and will kindly remind you again:

You have cast judgment upon me (in public) because I don't share the same environmental view as you. The problem is that you participate in the same behavior (energy consumption) and in this case for a what many would consider a luxury.

The position is hypocritical position with the sole justification that you are trying to "reduce" your consumption compared to me. Again, the guy to the left of you is disappointed in YOU because he is doing HIS "bit", while you are using energy on things like a fish tank and internet fish forum.

I am going to kindly ask that the subject be dropped so that we can get back to the topic. This is not the venue to debate environmental views.

Your motives for using LEDs are fine, just don't use them against somebody who has different motives

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just sayin'. We should stick to the LEDs...

Being that the Annual PMASI club picnic is at my house tomorrow (did you RSVP )... There will be a few differnet fixtures here (Radion and Orphec I think, if Dave brings them), I hope to play around with them before folks get here. It will be interesting to see how they all look over the same tank. My Halides are on a pulley system so I can raise them up and compare different lights side by side.

I have seen several LED tanks (and as I mentioned not been pleased with the look) but hope to gain more insight about the actual look of different fixtures, side-by-side, if I have time.

 

[Paul B]

There will be a few differnet fixtures here (Radion and Orphec I think,

Oh Wow, can I bring my "WOLs" (Whale oil lights)? They have a PAR 3 1/2 :lol2:

 

[BeanAnimal]

Oh Wow, can I bring my "WOLs" (Whale oil lights)? They have a PAR 3 1/2 :lol2:

Not much less than the XM 20K bulbs I started with years ago. The 150W XM 20K HQI had something like 35ppfd max... and coral grew under it

That brings me full circle to LEDs. It is as much about the proper peaks in wavelength as it is about total PUR (or PAR) as neither quantify the needs for coral. It is my thought that many (most) of the fixtures are missing some (or many) of the needed peaks. That does appear to be changing as the emitters and combinations of emitters evolve.

 

[jerpa]

Being that the Annual PMASI club picnic is at my house tomorrow (did you RSVP )... There will be a few differnet fixtures here (Radion and Orphec I think, if Dave brings them), I hope to play around with them before folks get here. It will be interesting to see how they all look over the same tank. My Halides are on a pulley system so I can raise them up and compare different lights side by side.

I have seen several LED tanks (and as I mentioned not been pleased with the look) but hope to gain more insight about the actual look of different fixtures, side-by-side, if I have time.

I did RSVP. If you need help setting up I am free and only live about 5 minutes away in Whitehall. I could bring over one of my Kessil A350's if you want another fixture to look at. It's a bit blue for my taste, as all the OEM fixtures seem to be, so I'm going to be doing some DIY supplementation.

 

[BigAl2007]

Being that the Annual PMASI club picnic is at my house tomorrow (did you RSVP )... There will be a few differnet fixtures here (Radion and Orphec I think, if Dave brings them), I hope to play around with them before folks get here. It will be interesting to see how they all look over the same tank. My Halides are on a pulley system so I can raise them up and compare different lights side by side.

I have seen several LED tanks (and as I mentioned not been pleased with the look) but hope to gain more insight about the actual look of different fixtures, side-by-side, if I have time.

That's a GREAT idea! I know photography is a horrible indicator of colors etc but maybe take pictures of the tank from the same spot/angle with each light and see how they turn out. It's a shame you can't get more different units but that's a good start to say the least. Maybe someone can bring something else as a surprise? ? ?

Keep us posted :beer:

 

[BeanAnimal]

I did RSVP. If you need help setting up I am free and only live about 5 minutes away in Whitehall.

Just now looking at the list

I could bring over one of my Kessil A350's if you want another fixture to look at.

That would be wonderful, though as you will see when you get here, there is not a lot to look at due to a heat related loss and the fact that my hybrid angel has decided that ALL coral is wonderful tasting

Preparing for a teardown and upgrade after the picnic. Tank is 10 years old and it will give me a chance to get rid of the phpsphate bearing rock I am saddled with, the evil angel and the leathers and paly's that are rooted to some of my rock. Thus, my journey into LED land