LED's with respect to color of Sps corals

[TropTrea]

Oddly enough, there is a grain of truth to the statement, but only under specific circumstances.

I had red cyano break out in my LED lit tank a few months ago, but only on the one side that received 2-3 hours of sunlight a day. Nutrients were high enough for cyano (obviously), but only certain wavelengths provided by the sunlight spurred the growth. When I kept the blinds closed, the cyano disappeared without any other changes to the tank. Later I allowed sunlight to hit the tank again with the same cyano growth result. I now keep nutrients low enough that sunlight no longer has an effect on cyano growth.

It is not the near UV light hitting the tank that the Cyno bactera loves. It is actualy red light around 680 nm that causes Cyno Bacteria to go crazey on. Even with normal nurishment levels if you provide enough light at 680 nm it will be hard to control the cyno bacteria.

As far as natur goes if you go as shallow as 5 meters deep in the ocean most of the light is already filtered out in the 680 nm range. So for coral growth aa well as florescent coloring is concerned light at 680 nm should be kept to a minimium.

 

[TropTrea]

Woops double posted

 

[TropTrea]

I just ran into this thread and see some great things in here. I also see some generalizations and would like to point out some interesting thoughts. The biggest thing is when we choise our lighting we need to keep three important factors in mind. Each of us will put different levels emphisis on different factors therefore the perfect lighting for one person might be far from ideal for another.

1. Lighting for coral growth. There are only a hand full of chemicals that are found in corals that produce the nuetriments for coral growth. Each of these primarly need light at a specific frequency and a secondary frequency. If the protein chemicals recieve light at a different frequency they cannot utalize it for growth. With a PAR meter you measuring all frequencies within a band width beyound what any coral can use. In reality they are lucky to use only 10% of that light for any growth. For greater growth effeciency from lighting only the specific frequencies utalized by the coral would be ideal if we were worried only about growth.

2. Florescense in coral is caused by proteins absorbing a specific frequency of light and then emmiting a different frequency of light. Again there are various florescent proteins and dependent on your particular coral you only find a few of these chemicals in your coral. While the wave lenghts that are absorbed by different chemicals range from 380nm to 620 nm a majority of then are in the 420 nm to 480 nm range.

3. Corals and Fish also simply reflect light back at us at the same frequency they receive it. For a perfect reflective appearance of true colors a flat light spectrum would be ideal between about 400nm and 700nm. however this would be very bright if were to see any coral growth and would probaly bleach out most of corals. So we try to minimize this and yet provide enough to make it pleasing to our eyes. If we do not have any red light a red fish would appear black.

Using this as guide we end up looking for a balance between a flat spectrum and a strong spectrum in the range of 420 to 480 nm. I ersonly have DIY built my LED fixtures. The LED technoilogy is changing faster than one can imagine. A fixture close to what I had built 1 year ago is barely hitting the comerical market today. Another fixture I built just 4 months ago could be considered near obsolute compared to new LED's that are being released today.

But as of today I see the ideal lighting as a combination of LED's and T-5's. There are some hard to fill gaps in the 480 to 500nm range of LED's that T-5's can nicely fill.

 

[Big E]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for you comments, your LED knowledge is appreciated. I have been tracking your T5/LED thread, because it's the way I'm probably going to go next and have been planning that for quite some time, but lack the ins & outs of DIY.

There are some hard to fill gaps in the 480 to 500nm range of LED's that T-5's can nicely fill.

I have a different thought angle on your comment above. It will lead to the same conclusions on setting up an LED/T5 combo. I need some time to put everything together and will post on your thread.

FYI, to anyone interested, Dennis' thread is here---

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2275561

 

[pjb9166]

I had to bite my tongue at the LFS the other day, the owner of the shop was telling a customer that "the only light on the market that puts out UV is the Radion pro". I've heard the same guy tell multiple customers to keep their reef tank away from natural sunlight because it causes algae to grow.

Old school info. Anbout the sunlight thing. It can trigger a cyno bloom if not careful.

 

[Nano sapiens]

It is not the near UV light hitting the tank that the Cyno bactera loves. It is actualy red light around 680 nm that causes Cyno Bacteria to go crazey on. Even with normal nurishment levels if you provide enough light at 680 nm it will be hard to control the cyno bacteria.

As far as natur goes if you go as shallow as 5 meters deep in the ocean most of the light is already filtered out in the 680 nm range. So for coral growth aa well as florescent coloring is concerned light at 680 nm should be kept to a minimium.

I didn't mention UV light, just 'specific wavelengths' since I didn't want to get into a detailed discussion. You are correct that red light in sufficient quantity can spur cyano growth. Older florescent bulbs that have 'red shifted' have been know for years to contribute to cyano blooms.

I specifically added a small amount of red in my LED setup, but it has not been enough to spur cyano growth.

 

[wayne in norway]

In reply to Curtis, some posts up, I have recently acquired some frags of blue echinata and am keeping them under the exact same light as you, and am not having issues with the colour. Admittedly it's only a couple of weeks, but there's new growth, and it's blue and the light blue colour has stabilised a stroke lighter than it was. I've also got a frad of what I think is a tort (sold as an 'aussie acro') and that has gone blue as well from previously olive with blue polyps.
Different colonies have different needs and it's tough to generalise I think. The corals were previously under a Vertex, with a basic mixture of blue and white + some later add on 'UV modules'

 

[TropTrea]

I didn't mention UV light, just 'specific wavelengths' since I didn't want to get into a detailed discussion. You are correct that red light in sufficient quantity can spur cyano growth. Older florescent bulbs that have 'red shifted' have been know for years to contribute to cyano blooms.

I specifically added a small amount of red in my LED setup, but it has not been enough to spur cyano growth.

The UV lighting is a very debatable issue. I personaly found adding a little of it seems to help both color and growth. But there are so many neart UV LEDs out there with none made by the major quality chip builders. But going through different writing by the suposed lighting experts some think we need light below the 420 nm range others don;t even think that anything under 440 is benificial enough for the added effort. And I have yet to see anyone tanking good about light under 380 nm.

I have played with about a half dozen different LED chips with peaks suposedly below 454nm. Of all them I was not happy with all but 2 of them. Some made my tank extremly pink which was nearly impossible to wash out with other colors.

As far as adding red this has a lot to do with which red chips you use. the 680nm range is what the cyno realy goes crazey on. Most reds at 680nm are listed as deep reds and are putting out more light than eye realizes as our sensativity to red at 680nm is decreased considerably. But I like to use the so called Neutral Whites rather than the Cool Whites. The neutrals put out enough red to create a balanced look without the strong 680nm light. To me the cool whites do not put out enough red though so adding a red chip for color balance is a very common practice.

As far as which is better or worst is realy a toss up. If you have 12 blues and 2 neutral white you really end up close to what you would get with 8 blues, 5 Cool Whites, and 1 red (620nm).

 

[Nano sapiens]

The UV lighting is a very debatable issue.

Looks like you are really deep into the LED chips. I like to keep up on the latest findings, chips, etc. even though I currently have just a small and simple mixed reef nano tank.

For some added 'red' (along with a smidge of yellow and orange) I just added a magenta stunner Strip. I tried 405nm (near UV) LEDs for a while, but I found the light very annoying to my eyes (focusing issues). 445nm (Royal Blue) I favor since the coral florescence is awesome.

 

[TropTrea]

Looks like you are really deep into the LED chips. I like to keep up on the latest findings, chips, etc. even though I currently have just a small and simple mixed reef nano tank.

For some added 'red' (along with a smidge of yellow and orange) I just added a magenta stunner Strip. I tried 405nm (near UV) LEDs for a while, but I found the light very annoying to my eyes (focusing issues). 445nm (Royal Blue) I favor since the coral florescence is awesome.

I have tried numerious near UV led's and have come to the conclusion there is a lot of marketing deception in these LED's/ I wish I had the spectrum anylizer I used to work with to prove this point but equipment like that is beyound most hoggiests budget.

I will say the near UV LED's I tried were suposedly 405nm, 410nm, 420 nm and 430 nm. Running them all ant 350 ma you would expect to see a spectrum and brightness patern with a difference coresponding to their wave leng rating. However thios was not true in the least bit. Two of the 410-420 nm were oticably brighter and bluer than any of the others. The 430 shwed a sligh amount of pink but was the dimmest of them all. One suposed 420 nm looked more red than blue and I would almost suspect it was giving off two peaks one in the red range.

And from nano's coment about the 405nm hurting the eyes is completly believable. Light in the 380nm range will in the long term cause vision problems acording to several medical sources. If the spectrum width is wide enough and the intensity is strong enough it could create vision issues.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I too wonder how accurate the wavelength info provided by the manufacturer really is. I have taken photos with a yellow lens designed to block light specifically around the 445nm range, but with just the 'Royal Blues' on I can see a good amount of violet in the tank which appears to lie outside of the LED wavelength specs. Can't tell for sure without the appropriate equipment, though.

And from nano's coment about the 405nm hurting the eyes is completly believable. Light in the 380nm range will in the long term cause vision problems acording to several medical sources. If the spectrum width is wide enough and the intensity is strong enough it could create vision issues.

Not only did the 405nm cause vision blurring, but after a few days I had nausea which increased each day from my desktop Nano. I like my corals to have the correct light, but not at the expense of my own health.

Other forms of lighting have shields in place (or shielding is recommended) to severely reduce or eliminate UV, so I would hope that aquarists experimenting with UV or near-UV LEDs take the potentially harmful effects seriously.

 

[TropTrea]

There are many UV LED's made at much shorter wavelenghts from the mainline manufacturers for specific medical applications. Many if not all of them have special exposure warnings for the general population. But I cannot think of one in the 380nm to 420 nm range. I wish the vendors would give some references as to where they are getting there so called UV LED's, and the manufacturers data sheets on these LED's.

 

[Bobf216]

In my new tank that i set up, I am going to be doing mostly sps and a few zoas. My tank is in the cycling process now but currently my lighting setup is a kessil a350 supplemented by T5's i have a 39w coral plus bulb and a 39watt actinic. The tank is a 40 breeder. I am going to document the growth and color pretty intensely and how the coral are reacting. I was just running the Kessil in my 30 gallon tank and all sps were growing quite well. I recently moved and I wanted to try the 2 t5s to supplement the Kessil to see the effects compared to just running the kessil. I will be documenting everything over the next few months and will put a thread together on it.

 

[ReefCowboy]

"The spectral plots of quite a few look good & may start to actually color all Sps corals to their fullest with par at 100%." Thats a pretty bold statement suggesting results with units that arent even out yet... Dont get me wrong, im all about moving forward and leds will take over, no doubt. However its way too early to say the new advances are tunned in to achieve the results you are stating. Those are the same we heard when Radion Pros arrived. When LEDs came out, it took the market by storm, everyone switched to the new wave believing all the hype. Today, after $1000's spent and promisses not honored, the number of hobbyists switching back to MH is bigger than ever. Truth is hobbyists from now on will ask for more than spectral graphs, new color leds, and all the technical expertise we see out there on this topic all the time before spending the money again on the new led fixtures. Some people love hype and will buy the fixtures as they come. Others believe time will tell and like myself, prefer to wait until leds prove themselves as reliable in respect to color.

 

[Big E]

"The spectral plots of quite a few look good & may start to actually color all Sps corals to their fullest with par at 100%." Thats a pretty bold statement suggesting results with units that arent even out yet... Dont get me wrong, im all about moving forward and leds will take over, no doubt. However its way too early to say the new advances are tunned in to achieve the results you are stating. Those are the same we heard when Radion Pros arrived. When LEDs came out, it took the market by storm, everyone switched to the new wave believing all the hype. Today, after $1000's spent and promisses not honored, the number of hobbyists switching back to MH is bigger than ever. Truth is hobbyists from now on will ask for more than spectral graphs, new color leds, and all the technical expertise we see out there on this topic all the time before spending the money again on the new led fixtures. Some people love hype and will buy the fixtures as they come. Others believe time will tell and like myself, prefer to wait until leds prove themselves as reliable in respect to color.

They are better than previous generations, but I agree, a far cry from what I want or expect.

Btw, I didn't state any results. I've stated many times we have to see how they perform.

This thread is about sharing technical information, not arguing about predicting the future of LEDs. If you'd like to share something people can benefit from than do so, otherwise move on.

 

[malady]

My best advice to anyone with LEDs is it to try to copy the spectrum layout of the 400w Radium bullb and then raise or lower the LED units. That way you are changing intensity without changing the spectrum.

How would I do this?

I have a AI hydra and I am not sure how the dimming is effecting the spectrum I want

I usually keep a 1white-3blue ratio

 

[ReefCowboy]

They are better than previous generations, but I agree, a far cry from what I want or expect.

Btw, I didn't state any results. I've stated many times we have to see how they perform.

This thread is about sharing technical information, not arguing about predicting the future of LEDs. If you'd like to share something people can benefit from than do so, otherwise move on.

Sorry didnt mean to offend bud. Im following along as well and am interested in the technical data myself. I didnt say you stated results, i just pointed a bold statement thats all.

 

[TropTrea]

How would I do this?

I have a AI hydra and I am not sure how the dimming is effecting the spectrum I want

I usually keep a 1white-3blue ratio

A simple white to blue ratio may not do it. There are different spectrums on the various different white LED's. Add that to the factor that there are many different blue LED's that peak at different wavelenghts and they only have a band width of 10 to nm's.

Most individuals that have fantastic results using LED's are using a combination of 4 or more different types of LED's. I personaly found a ratio of 1 420nm, 3 royal Blue 455 nm,2 true Blue 470 nm 2 neutral White (4,000K)
LED's working the best of those that I tried so far. However I would still like to add some additional light in the 490 nm range. Keep in mind that the ratio I mention is for wattage rather than just for the number of LED. As an example I run the 420 nm LED at roughly 2 watts of power each compared to the neutral whites and Royal blues that I'm running at just under 5 Watts each. The true blues are running just under 3 watts as to date noone is making a 5 or 10 watt true Blue LED to my knowledge.


Some individuals use cool white LED's so they do not need as much blue but often these individuals end up adding additional red LED's to balance out the spectrum.

 

[TropTrea]

I had to bite my tongue at the LFS the other day, the owner of the shop was telling a customer that "the only light on the market that puts out UV is the Radion pro". I've heard the same guy tell multiple customers to keep their reef tank away from natural sunlight because it causes algae to grow.

Algea growth can be stimulated by red light even more so than by near UV light. But true UV igt is from wavelenghts under 380nm which are not recommendedfor any living organism other than some reptiles that require it to produce vitamin D.

 

[TropTrea]

A little note on my last build. From spectrun anylasis I thought most of my LED builds were weak in the wavelenghts around 485nm to about 515 nm. Thereare no led's available that I found to fill this gap. So I decided to try a combination of T-5's and LED's. For a 90 Gallon tank the final build turned out to be a combination of the following

A pre dawn to post dusk series with
4 420 nm LED's and 6 470 nm LED's running at 2.5 watts each
A Dawn to Dusk series with
ATI 54 Watt Blue Plus Bubs.
At mid day I add in
6 455 nm LED's 6 Neutral White LED's running at 4.75 Watts each

While this set up is running only about 6 moinths so far It's performance is doing better than a 6 bulb T-5 fixture in color however it is hard to see a difference in growth.. Comparing it to my best all LED set up's the coral growth seems slightly better and the coloritation is comprable.

Considering this system is only running at 190 Watts total while a 6 bulb T-5 set up would be running 324 Watts I believe with slightly increasing th power spectrum in the corect areas the growth could end up better with the combination of T-5's and LED's.