LED's with respect to color of Sps corals

[Big E]

Exactly.
Or you can use ready(and nice looking) Hybrid units(LED+T5) where main light source is LED panel - and T5 are only for eliminate shadows.
if your LED panels spectrum will be correct for SPS corals - you dont need to use too many T5(using 8 bulbs of T5 and few leds dimmed is without sence - it still T5 unit with little amount of "LED" on board.

I still lean more towards T5 as being the main source, but if the LEDs can be the main source I"m all for it.

My biggest concern is that that the LEDs and T5 bulbs are in the same fixture and same level in reference to the water surface.

What I'd like to see is a capability to dim the LEDs but keep the spectrum of what the LED section is producing exacly the same. I'm not if sure any of these commercial combo units can do that.

In other words, I want to set my spectrum and raise or lower intensity without changing the spectrum output of the LEDs.

 

[Big E]

Here's two articles about the affect of red light at high intensity or focus---

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/11/aafeature

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/5/aafeature

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Thats the same what I said in another topic. Using LED chips called "hyper red" or "deep red" wiht peak/spectrum above 660nm is completly without any sense. Its not give additional "energy punch" for Chl_a uf there is proper amount of energy emited in blue spectrum.
Its only cause coral bleaching(if there is too much light from that spectrum range >650nm) and tank dont look natural - so many users of that lamps set that channel power much less than 50% - sometimes even more).
About spectrum changes when we dimmour lamps - yes, its true - almost of all lamps change their spectrum when they are dimmed - a specially that ones with warm white leds and cool white leds.
But I will show you tommorow spectrum charts taken from our SMT lamps (with discrete spectrum - like T5) where that changes doesnt appear - at 20%,50% and 100% output power(changes are below 3% of overal spectrum).
It was able to achieve by using special method of dimming LEDs chip and special LED matrix built.
I have that chart in our office so tomorrow I will show it.
For white leds - I published that charts on RC and you can see that changes are very big(like from led neutral to warm when its dimmed).

 

[asid61]

As przemek said, spectrum does not change that much. The last graphs I saw of it were like 8nm changes tops.

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

Yes, it was for color leds.
For white leds changes are very big so it affect oferal light spectrum lamps with white leds.
There is more info about that :
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2319253

 

[Pacific Sun RD]

I still lean more towards T5 as being the main source, but if the LEDs can be the main source I"m all for it.

My biggest concern is that that the LEDs and T5 bulbs are in the same fixture and same level in reference to the water surface.

What I'd like to see is a capability to dim the LEDs but keep the spectrum of what the LED section is producing exacly the same. I'm not if sure any of these commercial combo units can do that.

In other words, I want to set my spectrum and raise or lower intensity without changing the spectrum output of the LEDs.

As I promised before, there you have spectrum readings for our Triton S(SMT matrix - the same like in Hyperion S/S2) on different power settings.
Using special technology of dimming leds and together with discrete spectrum built - our lamp "keep" set spectrum in wide range.
Spectrum differences are below 3% (color measurment, strip charts, absolute irradiance).

So - you can try to comapre it with other manufacturers spectrum readings(under different power settings). I think that they should publish it also - its important information for Customers(much more important than lamp spectrum chart on 100% settings - which are never set, because all of taht Customers strongly modify white channel power - sometimes even to 50-60% or less)
Im sure that you will be very surpised how it looks.

Ok - first spectrum - three different settins, the same Integration time(to measure light intensity):

Second - all charts adjusted by changing integration time - to check how much spectrum is changing. As you see, the biggest change is only in Orange spectrum range - but its not affect overal spectrum reading and change is very small.
No any other 'full spectrum' light source buil with white leds can reach similar parameter - stable spectrum when lamp is dimmed.

As you can see on spectrum reading - for example chart with 100% output power have little smaller orange peak in spectrum - but also little more in red(in the same time - due peak shift to right) so changes in CCT are smoothed.

 

[Big E]

Thank you, Przemek..........good stuff

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Thanks for your post, I have read it with attention. Maybe you can help me with my question ...

I have a 6x39W T5 with ATI lamps. I started with 3 white (Aquablue special) and 3 Blue +. But I thought it looked too white, and changed one of the white Aquablue and put a Purple Plus. (visually perfect).

This is the spectrum:

It's similar to the Coral+, but with higher in the reds. Could that benefit the algae, but the coral algae, the zooxanthellae? Could it boost them, more than other spectrum fixtures?

I have no algae, nothing. Only on the glass. Using Biopellets, nitrates are between 0-5 (or less, it's not more acurate), phosphates 0,1, going down every week thanks to chaeto. I found that the blue acropora looks more brown that it was, also the pink millepora.

My question is if the purple T5, with a higher peak in the reds, can boost the zooxanthellae, or is just a matter of ates and will reduce when reducing the nutrients.
No algae problem, is just the color of the pink and blue acroporas.


Is it true (as I've read in the article) that best growing results are at higher kelvin temperatures (15000-20000ºK)?
So maybe for a better look or aspect, we could only use Coral+ (15000ºK) and Blue+, and no Aquablue special (11000ºK)??


The tank looks wonderful with the purple +, but as I have read in this thread, it's different what we like to see, and what corals prefer.

Should I change the purple for a coral+? Or even the white ones?


Thanks

I would say white tubes (e.g. Aquablue special) are better coral growers than blue ones (blue +). I would also use the term spectrum for T5 technology instead of Kelvin rating as it is misleading (refer to this thread for better explanation- see post #7)

:beer:

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Thanks for your post, I have read it with attention. Maybe you can help me with my question ...

I have a 6x39W T5 with ATI lamps. I started with 3 white (Aquablue special) and 3 Blue +. But I thought it looked too white, and changed one of the white Aquablue and put a Purple Plus. (visually perfect).

This is the spectrum:

It's similar to the Coral+, but with higher in the reds. Could that benefit the algae, but the coral algae, the zooxanthellae? Could it boost them, more than other spectrum fixtures?

I have no algae, nothing. Only on the glass. Using Biopellets, nitrates are between 0-5 (or less, it's not more acurate), phosphates 0,1, going down every week thanks to chaeto. I found that the blue acropora looks more brown that it was, also the pink millepora.

My question is if the purple T5, with a higher peak in the reds, can boost the zooxanthellae, or is just a matter of ates and will reduce when reducing the nutrients.
No algae problem, is just the color of the pink and blue acroporas.


Is it true (as I've read in the article) that best growing results are at higher kelvin temperatures (15000-20000ºK)?
So maybe for a better look or aspect, we could only use Coral+ (15000ºK) and Blue+, and no Aquablue special (11000ºK)??


The tank looks wonderful with the purple +, but as I have read in this thread, it's different what we like to see, and what corals prefer.

Should I change the purple for a coral+? Or even the white ones?


Thanks

I would say white tubes (e.g. Aquablue special) are better coral growers than blue ones (blue +). I would also use the term spectrum for T5 technology instead of Kelvin rating as it is misleading (refer to this thread for better explanation- see post #7)

:beer:

PS. I am going to experiment with 1:1 (Coral+:Blue+) when I replace my six tubes next week.

 

[TropTrea]

I will agree the K ratings are extremly misleading. In all reality K only tells us what the dominant color of the light is but it does not tell us how dominant that color is unless we link it to CRI factor. However that makes it even more confusing to most people. With the salt water tanks though it even makes it more difficulat as we are often talking a dominat color beyound the K scale. The XY corrodinate plots are probably the best we can come up with in forms of a simple transulation. However even that is a mater of interputation of the as it is possible to get the same total XY coordinates with different combinations of lighting.

Yes this takes us back to the actual Spectrum of the Light source in combination. I would even put this ahead of PAR as different liging organisms use different parts of the PAR specturm to various degrees. I have learned to basicly ignore PAR ratings for corals as they include to many light frequencies that are not used by corals in order to make the light pleasing to the human eye.

I look at reef lighting in three seperate ways independent of each other.
1. What light will give me the maximium growth of my corals?
2. What light will show the reflective colors of my corals the best?
3. What light will allow the florescent colors in the corals to pop the best?

The answers to these three questions are not the same. You could almost say the the answer to 2 and 3 are actualy opposite.

 

[Duna_]

Agree ...

The zooxanthellae likes most the blue spectrum, but we like the bright colors that gives the white light, the reds, the greens and also the fluorescent.
When you dive you see everything blueish, reds are brown, etc, but when a documentary is filmed, they use white light with the camera and everything looks wonderful, but that's not how they normally live.


By the way, I changed the white bulbs (Aquablue special) and put Coral Plus and Blue plus and I really like it. More blue, more fluorescence and reds are nice.

 

[TropTrea]

Yes the deeper one dives into the ocean the bluer the water does look. What is happening is the water in the ocean is filtering out all light gradualy. But the longer (IR and RED) wave lenghts are being filtered out much faster than the shorter blue wave lenghts. Also very interestingly the extrem short wave lenght do not penetrate as well as the longer blue wave lenghts. 450 to 470 nm seem to be the wavelenghts with the most penetration ability in the ocean.

Ocean photography of corals is an interesting art. If you go deep enough and take none flash pictres the only hing that shows up is the florescense of the corals in orld of blue. But if you use to powerful of a (white) flash unit you wash out the florescense. So it is like in the aquarium lighting requiring a delicate balance.

Fortunatly in the aquarium we can create a balance with a longer blue lighted period that we often refer to as dawn to dusk where it can be bright enough for photosynthesis and yet not wash out the florescense. Then we can add the white light for our viewing pleasure period on a shorter time period.

 

[Big E]

This is a good read for some practical use. It was posted in the lighting section a while back by someone.

CORALS-CONIFERS AND LEDS- A NEW PERSPECTIVE

http://www.reef-eden.net/corals-conifers_and_led-a_new_perspective.htm

 

[TropTrea]

I would say white tubes (e.g. Aquablue special) are better coral growers than blue ones (blue +). I would also use the term spectrum for T5 technology instead of Kelvin rating as it is misleading (refer to this thread for better explanation- see post #7)

:beer:

PS. I am going to experiment with 1:1 (Coral+:Blue+) when I replace my six tubes next week.

No full spectrum is not a better coral grower than blue lights. The majority of the peak absorption of photosynthetic proteins are in the blue part of the spectrum with a few secondary absorption peaks in the red spectrum. Blue T-5 bulbs concentrate the light on the wave lengths the corals can utilize.

Yes you can still grow corals with just full spectrum lighting however it takes a lot more light to reach the same levels of growth. Plus you risk the factor of bleaching with excessive red light before you hit the saturation level for blue light.

 

[stancfii]

This is a good read for some practical use. It was posted in the lighting section a while back by someone.

CORALS-CONIFERS AND LEDS- A NEW PERSPECTIVE

http://www.reef-eden.net/corals-conifers_and_led-a_new_perspective.htm

Interesting, but what did he prove? Was it that LEDs grow coral, good coral color may be bad for health, lower par is better than higher par, direction of light makes a difference in coral growth, or some led fixtures have too narrow optics? I kept waiting for an experiment or proof, but no dice.

 

[zachts]

Interesting, but what did he prove? Was it that LEDs grow coral, good coral color may be bad for health, lower par is better than higher par, direction of light makes a difference in coral growth, or some led fixtures have too narrow optics? I kept waiting for an experiment or proof, but no dice.

.....one more thing I need to read thru. :lolspin:

this thread too....

 

[rtparty]

Interesting, but what did he prove? Was it that LEDs grow coral, good coral color may be bad for health, lower par is better than higher par, direction of light makes a difference in coral growth, or some led fixtures have too narrow optics? I kept waiting for an experiment or proof, but no dice.

That's about how I feel. I spent a good portion of my day reading that between jobs at work and was totally let down in the end. Although, he does a great job educating us on coral health and how light plays a part in that.

The one thing I took from it is that we should all be using multiple fixtures and have them in an arc over our tank. This way we can replicate the sun starting on one side and slowly working to the other. It could technically be one fixture.

I have an awesome idea in my head but it would be tough to implement. Take something like a Kessil/PAR38 and angle it in from the left and put 7 "spotlights" up. Imagine a clock going from 9 to 3. Put the most powerful in the middle to replicate noon day sun.

 

[stancfii]

The one thing I took from it is that we should all be using multiple fixtures and have them in an arc over our tank. This way we can replicate the sun starting on one side and slowly working to the other. It could technically be one fixture.

I have an awesome idea in my head but it would be tough to implement. Take something like a Kessil/PAR38 and angle it in from the left and put 7 "spotlights" up. Imagine a clock going from 9 to 3. Put the most powerful in the middle to replicate noon day sun.

Yeah, but after all that effort, do you think the coral would end up looking any better than a tank that had high-intensity lighting from a traditional top down setup for 5 hours a day with no sunrise/sunset? Probably not :hmm4:

 

[Big E]

Yeah, but after all that effort, do you think the coral would end up looking any better than a tank that had high-intensity lighting from a traditional top down setup for 5 hours a day with no sunrise/sunset? Probably not :hmm4:

That's the whole point........you want to replicate the old MH setup in reference to coverage and intensity, but with LEDs. For someone with T5 or halide a lot of that info means nothing. Because of the limits of LEDs on how they are designed, especially the puck or cluster types this becomes an issue.

They cluster the LEDs to try to create the right spectrums, but it comprises spread and coverage, so you have to be smart about how you set them up.

I've actually seen corals in some LED tanks growing downward and along the rock base because the intensity is too high at that particular spot. Those clusters and discs create hot spots.

There are a good 6 or more tips for LED users in that article. You seem to be expecting one big "œah hah!!" moment and that's not what the article is about. There are a ton of facts and data in there to take advantage of. I will admit it's waaaay to long winded and it's easy to lose focus. It probably would have been better if he broke it down into 3-4 articles with more specific focus on each point.

The general take away is that you want to try and get an even spread (when using a static source) across your tank and keep it in a specific range. I like to use 200-400"¦"¦ I believe his range is slightly different. By doing this you'll be able to place SPS almost anywhere in the tank and have better overall success in growth shapes, color, health & ambient visual appearance.

It's too easy to think all that fancy software is going to fix all that by ramping up and down over the course of a day"¦"¦..it won't.

You have to look at the limitations/advantages of each LED unit and how it applies to that general rule. There are a lot of ways to work around it. Using T5's is popular right now as it's easy and not excessively expensive.

I'll try to follow up at a later date with some picture examples if I can. Just take the article as another resource like all the other links here. If you don't see anything there that is to your advantage, that's fine.

 

[JPMagyar]

Ed,

Totally agree with everything you said, but I think the general point is this is nothing new. We all know spreading light out more evenly is better than creating hot spots, and we all know LED spread versus spectrum is a developing technology. I remember when the debate was about how to orient your metal halide bulbs, perpendicular or parallel. It was the same discussion of how best to even out the spread. That was one of the nice aspects of the advent of T5 technology; it really made for a much more uniform PAR reading and allowed tanks to be chock full of colorful corals. That also is why I honestly think the real answer to LEDs is in the hybrid fixtures. Not only do they make the tank more visually appealing they also fill in the shadows and spectrum gaps of todays LED fixtures. I'm not sure what the author's credentials are but I am constantly amazed at how non-scientific literature gets elevated to status of note worthy. I'm pretty sure that author is not a scientist or an engineer, but rather a simple hobbyist like you and me. His opinion is just that . . . one other hobbyist's opinion. He didn't do any new science based work, and I think that is what the last few posts were meaning.