let the insanity begin

actually, I was thinking you might want to put something
to support the meter. That could be a bit of weight hanging
on just a piece of pvc... and a bad spot to have a break.

And while I'm meddling, you might check to see if your
house electric ground uses a water pipe connection.
Thinking you might want to put a ground jumper around
your original meter.

Inspector Lowell
 
Indeed, you have a good point with the support idea. Never even occured to me. My house ground uses a 10' copper rod driven into the ground, plus another 10' rod as a supplement out in the greenhouse. No worries there.
 
Curious why you split the electric and water before the meters rather then after? You could have split them after the meters and saved the expense of the additional meters and the hassles of having additional bills. Or are you required for some reason to keep the bills seperate from the house?
 
stang8s said:
Curious why you split the electric and water before the meters rather then after? You could have split them after the meters and saved the expense of the additional meters and the hassles of having additional bills. Or are you required for some reason to keep the bills seperate from the house?

This is going to be a business rather than an ungodly expensive hobby :p . He will need keep records of actual expenses for IRS purposes.

Had he decided to do this as a hobby, the other members of CIMA would have had to step in with an intervention and get him to admit to his addiction. BTW Dave's 900g tank came close .....
 
Getting the generator hooked up. First mount the automatic transfer switch and load center (tan box) to the wall by the house main panel. The soft gray conduit connects all the power from the generator to the main panel. The generator is supposed to supply power via the circuit breakers in the load center to the house circuits by removing the hot (black) wire from a breaker in the house panel and connecting it to one of the colored wires from the load center. David and I are still trying to figure a way to bypass all the separate breakers from the load center and just use two big breakers to supply power to the whole house panel. Otherwise, I'll only be able to supply twelve house circuits with back up power. The generator makes enough power to supply the whole house (including the greenhouse) and I really don't want to pick just twelve circuits. Luckily, when I rewired the house a few years ago, I put a home made label inside the panel so I know which breaker controls each and every outlet, light, and appliance in the house.

Geez, this is a friggin mess but one wire at a time will get it done, eventually. Spaghetti anyone? For the record, I hate mounting things to a concrete wall.
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The long silver flexible conduit then runs outside to the generator through a hole drilled in the sill plate of the house. The sill plate is eight inches thick and I don't have a forester bit (which would clear the wood from the hole as it is drilled). Using a hole saw was a pain because it can only drill about 1 1/4" then all of the wood has to be dug out of the bit and the hole, then drill a little more and dig some more wood, etc... Even baby steps will get you there if you take enough of them.
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Well, that was easy, relatively speaking. The quick disconnect box gets installed on the outside to cover the hole and make the connections from the conduit to the generator.
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David graciously made an hour long trip up to my house Sunday and, alas, it appears that unless I make some major modifications of the power wires coming into my house, or bypass the main breaker and have some very risky live wires in the boxes, the instructions for wiring the generator will have to be followed. (for the record, I also hate following instructions). So it looks like that spaghetti mess (back three pics) will have to be untangled sometime this week. I may still be able to run the whole house with some careful calculations of my house circuit loads and combine two or three circuits to run off of one breaker in the tan box. It just won't be as simplified as I would have liked. Nothing ever is.
 
Doesnt the generator have a "Mains" outlet that feeds its own breaker panel (the 12 circuits)? It seems you could tap those main lines (After the transfer switch!) before its own panel and wire those to your house panel.
Just a thought.
 
Hmmm. I know David and I talked about that before.
The way the instructions say to do it is, put a dual 70 amp breaker in the house panel. This carries line power out through the generator and back through the transfer switch. From there power goes to two hot "mains" (as you are calling them) and then down through the breakers in the transfer switch (tan) box. Then the color coded wires are supposed to take the power to the house circuits by removing the hot from a breaker in the house panel and connecting it to one of the color coded wires, which bypasses the breakers in the house panel all together. I'm thinking in order to do it the way you are suggesting, I would have to tie 11 hots from the house panel to one big hot from the transfer switch panel (keeping in mind that two of those are running out to my greenhouse and are #6 wires) and another 12 house circuits to the other big hot from the transfer panel. Then there would be no breaker protection between the two boxes and generator- don't want that.
Are you thinking something different?
 
From a commercial building standpoint....
Usually the mains come to the main breaker, then to the transfer switch, then to the panels. This way the whole downstream system can be powered by the generator when the transfer switch transfers.
SO for your system, you would need to run your main utility wires to the transfer switch. The wires going back to the house panel could then be supplied from either source. Then it would work as above.
The problem it seems, is that you do not have the equipment to do this. Not that you couldnt, but its probably not what was supplied with your generator. Also, your 70A switch (& generator) might not be enough to carry the whole house load. In buildings, htere are emergency panels and normal panels. You would never have a whole building full of office lights on E power, just the e-lights, fans and such.
Chris
 
It could be done with the main utility wires coming to the transfer switch, but after David and I took a look at it, I really don't want to mess with the utility power (having to be at home for the power company to come by- or not- and shut down the whole house-especially this time of year- pull the mains from my house so I can get the main conduit out-2" galvanized steel- and cut it, then rethread it and reroute it to the transfer switch. Just too much work with tools and equipment that I don't have and would have to borrow or rent.
We also looked at tapping into the main utility power before the house main breaker, turning off the house main breaker and running thick wires over to the transfer switch then have two 70 or 100 amp breakers in the transfer box running to two 70 or 100 amp breakers in the main panel. I am afraid that me or someone else would absent mindedly or unknowingly flip the house main breaker.
My house pulls 65 amps (max) and the greenhouse will pull 80 (max) if everything is running so I think two 70 amp breakers will do it. In case of the need for backup power I wont be running everything in the greenhouse or the house at once (like the furnace and exhaust fan wouldn't run at the same time and we probably wouldn't worry too much about the AC or washer/ dryer unless the power was out for a couple days). Just cant figure a SAFE way to get it done without following the instructions and maybe combining two or three low load circuits from the house where possible.
If you think of another way, don't be afraid to speak up!
Thanks for your interest and help.
 
It sounds like they are saying to run the 70A Double Pole breaker (the correct term FYI :) ) to the Xfer switch, use the new breakers in that panel to feed the loads of the breakers in your house.
I think I just re-iterated what you said above, but just got it.:D
If you then ran the circuits back to the panel, you could terminate the new wires onto the load side of your existing breakers (basically just using them as a terminal block), but you would have to leave them off, so that your generator did not feed the power back into your mains and try to power the whole block, or worse kill a utility worker on the line.
I'll bet there are code issues with that. It seems you would have to take all those circuit breakers out and run the existing house wires for those circuits to a junction box, where you could safely terminate them together. Though, you could probably wire nut them inside your panel.
Tough call.
Chris
 
Correct. The 70 amp dual (double pole) ;) from the house panel runs to the transfer switch, but through the generator first. Then from the new breakers to the house circuits. (But the hot wires have to be pulled from the house breakers and connected to the new breakers- via the supplied wires from the new breakers).
Like I asked David, "if I feed power back to the main utility, does that mean the power company owes me money"? ;D
I planned on removing the house breakers that wont be used any more. The generator package even supplied 12 wire nuts to do the connections!
I do not understand what you are saying about running the circuits back to the load side of the existing breakers or what a terminal block is. You'll have to simplify that a little (or more detail?). I'm in a little over my head with trying to figure a way around what the instructions say to do, which is why I sought David's advice, and why at the moment I am resolved to just following the instructions- but eagerly interested in what you have to say.
 
Home Generators / Transfer Switches / Electric Power Grid
can be a sensitive subject. Probably good to do a little focused
research to make sure you avoid any bad mistakes.
However, the stuff you got sounds like it's probably new
enough to take most of this into account.

hmm... another detail... a lot of people with backup generators
(although probably more like the smaller emergency versions)
and high efficiency furnaces lost the control boards in their
furnaces when they switched to their generator. The gen
output didn't have enough regulation. Just something else
to worry... err... check on.

Lowell


Lowell
 
"I planned on removing the house breakers that wont be used any more. The generator package even supplied 12 wire nuts to do the connections!"

This is what I was referring to when using the old breakers as a terminal block (just a connector). Much safer to just remove them, BUT, now you need to watch out for that exposed bus bar!!! I'd leave them in place, but just disconnected.
It sounds like they are telling you to just wire nut them in the existing panel. I was only saying to move those wires to a J box if there was code issues with having a bunch of wire nutted terminations in your breaker panel.
Sounds like you're set!
Chris
 
H2OENG- Ahh, gotcha. Again, I appreciate all the info I can get on this part of the project.

Lowell- Thanks... for giving me something else to worry about. :D I'll look back at the paperwork from the generator to make sure. When I was plumbing, I happened to have my boss's 800 watt generator at my house when the power went out one time. I hooked it up just to run the furnace and it worked ok. That time, I just shut off the main house breaker, cut the end of an extension cord off, plugged it into the generator and connected the cut end of the cord to my panel. (I know, I know, but it kept us warm).
 
are you going to hang Metal Halide lamps in there for Fall and Winter? the sun is not that intense in the fall and winter plus it's grey like a 1/3 of the year in Illinois just wondering
 
Judging by some discussions I've had with Anthony Calfo and by my own readings, what I'm expecting is for the need to use a shade cloth (actually planning on using regular old window screen) in the summer over tanks with mushrooms, zoanthids and other low light animals. Then in winter, I may need to use some supplemental lighting over the shallow water high light species to maintain color. The will live but may brown up.
 
Here is an eerie sight. 7 PM, pitch black outside, and the tropical oasis beckoning to come and play.
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I thought tonight (12-22-04) would be a good night to test the furnace. It has been running set at 64 degrees and has been having no problem keeping that temp up. So, I cranked up the thermostat to 90 to see what it would do. It's 12 degrees actual temperature outside. It took about twenty minutes for the furnace to get near ninety then it ran about every four or five minutes to keep the temp there. During the peak of the day, with outside temps in the teens, the greenhouse still gets up to the mid eighties without the furnace needing to run at all. The heat seemed a little unbalanced from side to side in the building, so I may need to put one or two of the fans on the same thermostat as the furnace to circulate the heat more evenly.
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With the final plumbing for the filtration system completed, the filter canisters are hung in place. They will house the usual sediment and carbon filters like a typical R/O unit. Under the slop sink, there are shut off valves where two additional pairs of canisters can be added if they are needed. The deionizer units standing next to them are Aquatechnic's Kati Ani series 10 rated to be able to process 9,800 gallons of water before needing recharged. I will be happy if they can process 5,000 gallons of "Roberts' water". While researching deionizers, I actually emailed back and forth several times with an Aquatechnic company rep....in German! There is an online translation dictionary called LEO that I used to translate back and forth between German and English. This was one of the times where Anthony Calfo saved me from the experience of negotiating customs by recommending that in this case, it would not be worth it to buy direct. The price was less then half of the three American distributors I found, but customs duties would have made the difference and if the units were damaged or required warranty service, negotiating the equipment back to the company could have been a nightmare. Well worth the extra money up front to buy from an American distributor and be able to have warranty and service readily available.
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Running water. At 12 degrees outside, I am just tickled pink that the water line is not frozen. This vegetable sprayer should make it easy to blast the crud out of the skimmer tubes. At least I don't have to run back to the house to get a drink anymore. Shortly, I need to pick up a bunch of small concrete pavers so all of the equipment, tanks and sink can be set level.
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Checked the temp again tonight (12-23-04). Outside at 8:30 PM it is 8 degrees actual temp. The furnace is still having no problem keeping 64-65 inside and will still run up to 90 when the thermostat is cranked up. The water is still running and I am still tickled. It wasn't anticipated that heating the place would be an issue, still waiting for summer to come to put the cooling mechanics to the test.

5:15 AM on 12-24-04 the temp is -2 actual and still no problems. Of course, the propane company hasn't been here since the initial fill up to send the first bill yet. Might be a problem then!

Temporary gas line "scabbed" to the generator which will have to wait until spring to get buried. Sure am glad all of those flaring tools and pipe cutters are still laying around from my plumbing days. The area around the unit will also have to be dug down five inches and filled with rock to avoid a fire hazard and level the generator. Really looking forward to moving that beast again...not.
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8' grounding rod driven into frozen ground next to the generator and hooked up. Eventually, the rod will have to be below grade and that will be done in spring when the rest of the finish work is done. The generator came with a flexible rubber gas connector which I'm guessing is to isolate the vibration of the generator unit from the gas line. Shut off valve is installed so the unit can be moved come spring to put in the bed of rock (and because it's just good practice to have a gas shut off for any piece of equipment). That little black square on the upper right corner of the generator opens to reveal two standard 120 volt outlets. That will be very convenient when it comes time to trim my hedges each summer. When the lid of the generator is open, there is also a 12 volt DC outlet like the ones in a car that a cell phone or TV can be plugged into.
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Now to tackle that wiring. AAARGH
 
Well, what the heck. It's been 40-50 degrees at the end of December? Went ahead and completed all of back filling around the greenhouse and some of the final grading too. Might as well go ahead and finish grade the generator area and get the gas line buried while the ground is soft. "The beast" really isn't that hard to move around on a couple of 2 x 6's. Just push it off to one side and dig the open side, then push to the other side and dig the rest.
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Pound the grounding rod the rest of the way into the ground, cover the area with some black landscape plastic, fill with rock and put the generator back into place. Dig a shovel-deep trench for the gas line and reconnect it and the grounding wire. Much better.
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OK, now to tackle that wiring. This really wasn't that difficult either, especially after setting up all those thermostats and overhead circuits in the greenhouse. I just tried to make too much of it by not wanting to run all the separate wires from the transfer switch load center over to the main panel. You know the old saying, "when all else fails, follow the instructions." H2OENG, I borrowed (stole) your idea about using the breakers as a connecting point. It made for a much neater installation as opposed to having all of those wire nuts inside the main panel.

The double pole breaker in the load center which supplies the greenhouse had to be upgraded to match what I have in the house panel and I went ahead and ran some left over #6 wire for that circuit instead of the 12 Gauge supplied with the package. I marked all of the circuits that are now equipped with back up power with little red sticky dots and wrote "GP DO NOT TURN ON". Some wires were moved to other breakers to combine low load circuits and the empty breakers were marked with yellow sticky dots. The double pole breaker in the bottom left supplies the line power through the generator and transfer switch load center is also marked with yellow (two yellows really). Hopefully, the red and yellow dots will keep anyone from turning on or off something that shouldn't be. The maintenance men at work use lock outs for circuit breakers to prevent anyone from turning them on while they are working on the electrical and I will check into finding some lock outs for my breakers too.
Darn near picked up the whole house. The attic light is a single item on one breaker as is one of the outlets in the laundry room so those two circuits were left out. The AC, swimming pool, outlet for an electric stove (ours is gas anyway), some outlets in the upstairs bedrooms and switched lights in the garage were not included either.
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DUN. (DONE).
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Now the only issue is; when the generator is supplying power, that rebuilt meter I installed will be running too. The power company won't charge the bill though because that meter is for my own use anyway. Really no big deal in light of all.
Time to get some live rock cycling and build some tanks.
 
I've been wondering if you were gonna be making the most of this unseasonably warm weather! Glad to see you are still plugging away. This kinda thing must be even tougher to do during the holidays. I know I didnt get too much done on my set up these past couple of weeks, and mine is alot smaller than your project.
Looking good man,
Nick
 
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