let the insanity begin

[rick rottet]

I thank you all for the nice comments, interest in this project and the constructive help too. My main purpose in running this thread was to show other people that it can be done and that captive propagation is the future of this hobby. The more people that become active and involved in propagation, the less we have to depend on wild harvesting from the ocean.

boxer85- I'm not all right in my head either, hence the name of the thread. Like I said, that one area of the wiring job was new territory for me so the more thumbs up I get, the more comfortable I am about throwing the breaker on that circuit- which will probably be tonite.

 

[rick rottet]

The overhead circuit completed. More snow gussets were placed horizontally across the peak of the roof. Again, these strengthening bars are not required for a twenty foot wide structure, but they do make a convenient and level place to run things, in this case the conduit. Starting from the far end; the first outlet controlled by thermostat 3 for the hanging fan that is plugged into it. The second outlet is controlled by a switch back by the door. This outlet is for overhead lighting. The third and fourth outlets are also tied back into thermostat 3 for the hanging fans that are plugged into them.

The last two outlets on the overhead circuit. The nearest one is tied into the switch by the door for the overhead lights and the end one is tied back to thermostat 3 for the fan that is plugged into it. The circuit then continues on and down to the junction box just above the left corner of the door. From there, the wire from thermostat 2 splits out to each side to control the two shutters on this end and the main hot also continues down to the switch just to the left of the door.

I was just a little nervous about throwing the breaker on this final circuit but it didn't trip, no sparks flew from anywhere and I'm still alive. When I tested everything, the hanging fans worked fine as did the outlets for the overhead lights controlled by the switch at the door. However, the big exhaust fan was turning the wrong way and blowing air into the greenhouse instead of sucking air out. I had to remove the portion of conduit, junction box and shutter motor that runs out from the left side of junction box 5, unbolt the shutter system then unbolt the fan motor. At first, I thought maybe I had wired it wrong but it was good. After studying the factory wiring diagrams, I found that there were 6 factory installed wires inside the motor casing which take power to/ from the thermal protection unit, brushes, magnetic field windings and two wires which control the direction of rotation of the motor. Apparently they build them that way so the motor can be used in a variety of applications. So the two leads simply had to be reversed, everything bolted back together and that problem was fixed. Then when I tested the shutter motors, the shutter on the big exhaust fan was opening when it should have shut and vise versa so I just had to turn the arm of the motor to point in the opposite direction. Just like a seesaw, when one side is up (shutter closed) the other side has to be down (shutter open), so whether you are up or down (opened or closed) depends on which end of the seesaw you're on. The shutter at the far end on the left side of the door wouldn't open all the way. The motors are made so that when they have power from the thermostat, they open the shutter until there is a set amount of resistance which tells the motor to stop turning. Then the motor holds the shutter open until the thermostat shuts off and a spring pulls the shutter closed. The spring which pulls the shutter closed was a little too tight which created enough resistance to turn off the motor too soon. The spring just had to be moved up a notch and it worked perfectly. The motor for the shutter on the right of the door didn't turn at all. At some point during the installation, I must have turned it too far by hand and had it in a position where it was locked. A simple 1/4 turn with a wrench and now all three shutter motors were in unison.

The final wiring of the main breaker box and a little closer shot of the junction boxes and thermostats. If you look back three pictures, you can see the arm from the shutter motor (dull gray rectangle to the left of junction box 5) turned the other direction.

The test for the furnace was next. The pilot lit easily but the main burner would not fire when the thermostat was turned on. Back to reading some more wiring diagrams. I found that the internal circuit form the factory was built so that it could be operated by a 24 volt household thermostat or a 120 volt direct wired one like I have but in either case, the gas valve gets operated by only 24 volts. There is an internal transformer which takes the 120 voltage down to 24. It had a wire going to one terminal (which would take 24 volts to a household thermostat in the event one is used) and an empty terminal which would carry the power back to the gas valve whenever the household thermostat calls for heat. I took the 24 volt wire from the transformer and switched it to the incoming terminal, in effect tricking the gas valve into thinking there was a 24 volt thermostat and it was always calling for heat. Now my direct wired thermostat has control of the furnace and gas valve by switching the 120 volt power off and on. Fire-breathing dragon in action. 7 main burners for the heat exchanger.

All buttoned up and running. As a further test, I set the furnace to come on and heat the place up to 80, the shutters to open at 65, the hanging fans to turn on at 68 and the exhaust fan to turn on at 70. It all worked flawlessly. The furnace was shut off, the door opened to cool the building down and everything worked in reverse as it should with the exhaust fan turning off at 69, the hanging fans at 67 and the shutters closed at 64.

 

[tschopp]

Very impressive!

I read your comments on evap cooling. I use evap cooling on my tank and have a couple comments.

9 months / year the evap is great, you set the temp and it holds it.

2.5 months the evap is mariginal, ie temp fluctuates up a bit in the day, but still OK.

for 2 weeks the evap does not cut it. I let my house AC pull the temp down in the tank. Your salt idea might work, not sure.

One thing that should work is an extra water tank that you keep as cool as possible with evap. On the worst days you dump heat to this tank. The size of this tank should be at least 50% of system volume. Ideally it should also be insulated.

A simpler alternative is a chiller for the days the evap just can't do much. A sad but true fact for evap is that the days you need it most you have the least available.

Next summer I hope to get a chiller so I don't have to rely on the house AC. I don't think my wife would understand why I am putting a 300 gal tub in her laundry room.

 

[4Texans]

Thermostats

Thermostats

If you do not mind me asking, what did your thermostats cost you?
P.S. This is really cool!
--
4Texans

 

[rick rottet]

4Texans- I don't mind at all. Thermostats were $51 each from Atlas Greenhouse-probably would be a little cheaper bought directly from Johnson Controls but with a project like this, it's just not worth saving a few bucks here and there to spend the extra time searching, ordering and paying shipping to many different suppliers when one place (Atlas) supplies the whole package.

I should clarify what I said back a few pages when I said $35,000 before water. That is the total budget for this project. "Before water" made it sound like I wasn't including live rock, sand, and all the other things that go in after the water.

tschopp- do you mean to then run tubes/ piping from the tanks through the "cold" tank (like a heat exchanger) or do you mean to mix the system water into this tank? If I needed to go that far with cooling, I was planning on the salt (or some other type of dessicant) drying the incoming air. Drier air will hold more moisture, obviously, than humid air. I have seen allot of threads from guys down in Florida using heat exchangers with cooler underground water. Just not sure I will need that much cooling or if it will be worth it to have a 2,000 gallon tank taking up space in the greenhouse, where frags could be growing, for the few days of the year that the heat gets that far out of hand. It would be difficult to have a tank in the greenhouse to be any different temp than all the other tanks would be. I think the idea is good and would work in the right application, just have to see how much cooling I will need for this project next summer.

As always, I appreciate and welcome the comments and ideas. Never know when an idea will work better/ more efficient than what I had planned.

 

[DvBrien]

How much of this is going to be a rite off as a Buiseness Expense?

 

[tschopp]

Yes pipes in the tank for heat exchange. You could use the tank for a dual purpose like RO storage or salt mixing. It should be possible to keep the tank below ambient. The limit would be the average wet bulb temperature. I would think 70 would be feasable for the worst part of summer.

In the worst of summer there are typically still a few nights that are cool or at least have low dew points. Durring those days you can dump huge amounts of heat with evap. On those days my system goes to the setpoint and shuts off. It would be good to take full advantage of days like that by bringing some water well below what you would want to operate the tanks at.

A chiller still might make the most sence for emergency cooling.

 

[boxer85]

How much of this is going to be a rite off as a Buiseness Expense?

i hope he rights it all off as business expense, then gets those corals growing so we can have a local place to buy them...

 

[DvBrien]

HERE ,HERE,
I'm a driving fool! How bout you?

 

[rick rottet]

tschopp-What kind of fan(s) are you running (if any) for the evap system on your tank or does it operate by some other mechanism? Do you also have a heating system?

I keep my private tank around 77 but plan to have the greenhouse tanks around 80-82 (for higher metabolism and faster growth) and let some natural seasonal variation of temps encourage the possibility of spawning. To keep those water temps, the air temp of the greenhouse will have to be kept around 86 (or so) which I really don't think will be a problem even in the heat of summer with the fans (four 18" high air flow hanging fans and one 30" exhaust fan). The big exhaust fan itself can pull the air temp down 10 degrees fairly quickly (minutes) and the way I have the hanging fans set up will give the most efficient use for evap cooling of the tanks which should be good for another 3-4. Only two of the 18" fans were really needed for a greenhouse this size, but I chose to use four. Granted, I'm not accounting for trapped heat inside of a greenhouse with these numbers (much like having your car sit in the sun with windows up) but a car doesn't have 39" shutters to let fresh air pass through or 102" of fans for air circulation. The trapped heat should only be an issue if the place is closed up, which it never should be when it's hot outside.
A chiller, IMO, is a fine addition for a private aquarium if it's needed. To put chillers on twenty tanks plus live rock curing vats plus quarantine tanks is a bit expensive. If this was a warmer climate and the temps were consistently higher, it might be worth it. I just don't think I will require that many days of use from chillers to make them worth the investment.
Maybe I'm in denial about the need for excess cooling because I want this to work as planned, but I really have done allot of searching, researching, visiting other greenhouses, and communicating with others who are operating them to get to this point. Like when I went to Dick Perrin's Tropicorium in Michigan, it was November, less than 40 degrees outside temp. 80 degrees, very stuffy and humid inside the facility and the water temps were cool by my standards at 74-75.
With the heat exchanger idea- those guys in Florida (some of them) set the tanks underground like a big septic tank, or at least buried halfway or more in the ground, and run piping from the propagation tanks through it. Some run big loops of underground pipes which feed the heat exchanger. As you said, it should be pretty easy to keep a tank below ambient, my concerns would be: if one tank can be kept at 70 in the worst of summer, all of the tanks should have no problem being around 80; or if I'm trying to keep one tank in the greenhouse at a certain temp, all of the other tanks will be that same temp (or very close) without some drastic shading differences. My swimming pool, 13,500 gallons, is typically around 74-75 with the highest around 79 when it's been over 100 a few days in a row. It sits in unobstructed sunlight all day.
I'm not at all trying to discount your ideas. Your input is valued and you have experience with what you're talking about, just thinking outloud so others can share the ideas so keep 'em coming.

 

[boxer85]

HERE ,HERE,
I'm a driving fool! How bout you?

02 WRX, DS 85
:rollface:

 

[gwrulzmylife]

I think Vader said it best, "Impressive".

LOL, I can't wait to see how it goes thru the winter, I am wanting to make a small greenhouse next to my house but the wife says it won't make it thru the winter, we'll show her!

Good luck! If you have an open house, let us know!

 

[daFrimpster]

Looking Good. I can't wait to drive over from Springfield to buy from you!

 

[tschopp]

I run fantech fans. I have a fan connected to a temperature controller. The fan pulls outside air, blows it over the sump and then back outside. The sump is air tight so this cooling air does not mix with the air inside the house.

I need cooling all year long so no heaters. Granted when it is 0 outsite the fan does not need to run long.

Heat input for me comes from the halides and submersible pumps mainly. The halides are air cooled, but the acual light carries alot of heat. Submersible pumps dump all their heat into the water. External pumps also input heat. Flow x pressure = power, this power will end up as heat.

Not sure what you will have in terms of pumps and lights. A little attention to detail now could prevent a potential heat problem in the summer.

A tank with no pumps and lights is easy to keep below ambient, a tank with pumps and lights is a bit different.

I am not saying you will have any problems, i don't know. My main comment was that if you need evap cooling, it will esentially disapear when you need it most. If you need cooling you should consider suplimentation to the evap for the worst times either with thermal storage or chillers. Maybe just a window to put a beefy window AC. I think evap cooling is highly economical and that is why I use it, but it does have some limits. I would consider a cooling tower that you pump air and water through.

Steve

 

[rick rottet]

For lights, I'm counting on the sun for 90%- seems to work pretty good for the ocean! I am expecting to need shade over some of the lower light species in summer (shrooms, zos, etc.) and use some supplemental lights over shallow water species (yellow leathers, brightly colored stonies, etc.) in winter.
Pumps will mainly be to feed the skimers. Two planned for each tank. Planning on 1200-1500 gph pump per tank. Most of the circulation will be accomplished with air lifts (additional cooling) with the realization that some tanks (stonies mainly) will require some additional circulation from a pump.
An AC unit big enough to cool down a 20' x 36' greenhouse would be prohibitively expensive to purchase and operate.
I have seen a few threads here on RC that talked about cooling towers but haven't really investigated their abilities/ cost.

 

[maxxII]

It sounds like I've heard refered as a "cooling bong"
Check here.
These are designed by computer guys who are looking for ways to cool down their super computers....so I dont know if this is feasible for a set up this large....Your top off unit would work over time thats for sure.....
Might help.
Nick

 

[tschopp]

Cooling towers come in all sizes. I have never seen one as small as the "computer bong".

This is what they typically look like:
http://groups.msn.com/AAEA/announcements1.msnw

I was thinking something in between these extremes. Aquatic eco sells cooling towers that are aquaculture size. I think you could DIY one of those pretty easy.

 

[rick rottet]

heehee. three mile island in my backyard
Well, for now, I have all winter to speculate and calculate exactly how much cooling I'll need given maximum temperature/ humidity situations. In my research, I made plans for cooling based on what other people from a similar latitude have used, recommendations from Atlas (I told them I need to maintain 85-86 degrees year round), visiting every greenhouse prop facility within a 5 hour drive, visiting about 15 greenhouses growing plants, and communications with Anthony Calfo. If I need additional cooling above the fans and exhaust fan, I have some inexpensive back-ups (with the salt and the "kitchen scrubber pads"). I spent $28 for three 4' x 4' pads (one is a spare), salt is cheap-especially at the start of spring when everybody is trying to get rid of their winter ice melt-, less than $30 on two powerheads, and about $15 for plastic pipe. If I find that even more cooling is needed than what I have planned for, then I will check into more expensive options. Actually, I'll probably check into them this winter so I'll be prepared if/ when the time comes. Thanks for the links and the ideas. Can never have too much discussion on a project like this.

 

[H20ENG]

Great progress Rick!
Can you describe the salt-as-dessicant a bit more. I understand that it will dry the air to aid in evaporative cooling, but wont the salt just turn to mush in no time? Then what do you do with it?
THX,
Chris

 

[rick rottet]

Let it kill the grass and put in some more. I have been looking at a more "environmentally friendly" alternatives- silica beads (can be redried in the oven).