let the insanity begin

hey SLOANMAN, long time no hear from, thanks for the encouragement.
I watched the construction thread of Rocky's greenhouse probably about 1 1/2 years ago. Unfortunately, I have read some threads and seen pics where Scubadude's (Rocky's) greenhouse was destroyed by the last run of hurricanes they had down in Florida. Then I saw recently where he was brainstorming with some other folks on how to "hurricane proof" a greenhouse.
Don't be a stranger!
 
I went ahead and started to fill a barrel just see how bad the water was going to get. The tds readings were actually higher than the tap water in less than 50 additional gallons. While waiting for suppliers to return phone calls and emails about RO units, I thought a submerged loop device would be a nice addition to the live rock vat. Does that Mag 36 look familiar Bill?
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The first two skimmers in place for the live rock vat. The delivery of clear pvc pipe for the discharge tubes arrived today and just need to be cut and put in place at the top of the skimmers. The clear tubes wont be glued, just pushed into place so they can be easily removed and cleaned. There will be valves added on the input and output of each skimmer as well.
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The distributor for the live rock got a little fussy when asked to postpone the shipment of live rock for the second week. There is also a personal friend of mine acting as an intermediate and I didn't want to effect the relationship he has with the distributor. I went ahead and recharged the deionizer, which had to be done anyway, and started filling some barrels to get ready for top offs and changes. The initial tds readings are 0 this time around but we all now about how long that will last without the RO in front of it. Wednesday 1-26-05 the shipment came in. Nine boxes weighing 22 kilos (48.4 pounds) each for a total of 435+ pounds.
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The shipping label shows that the boxes came through LAX on 1-23-05.
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First box and look what I found. Cleverly disguised as live rock. I would have liked to have thrown him in the vat but I know from experience how polluting a dead oyster can be. He had to go for the "home run ride". No pearl either. :(
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Even after only a few days out of the water, there is plenty of die off on the rocks. Each piece was thrashed around in a cut down barrel full of saltwater and all of the black, slimy, obviously dead stuff and silt was scrubbed away. I found about a dozen or so Porites, one branching stony coral that still had some tissue on it, and several small white skeletons of what appeared to be Favids. I doubt that any of the corals with tissue will make it through the cycle. Even if they do, they probably wouldn't be anything worth keeping and propagating. This is the scrub water after the first box of rock. YUK.
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Anybody want to try a mud filter? Better in the bucket than in the vat!
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The rock has fairly decent coralline coverage. Greens, oranges, purples and pinks.
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Triterium- thank you.
It's really not too bad out there unless you have your nose right over the vat, lots of ventilation in the greenhouse (now the skimmate is a different story, it will bring tears to your eyes). When the boxes were first opened though, it smelled like a cross between sewer and sulfur. BLECK.

Skimmers are rockin'. A drain had to be hooked to them for fear of overflowing back into the skimmer. They had to be cleaned twice each day since the rock has been in the vat but are starting to settle down a little. They were cleaned about 11 PM last night (1-28-05) and this pic was taken about 1:45 PM today (1-29-05).
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And the rest of the output since the last cleaning.
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I used 3" diameter pvc. They have a five foot section of pipe between the inlet and oulet tees. Each one should be able to handle a tank of around 300 gallons. The discharge tube is 1 1/2" clear pvc. The important part is how much air (fine bubbles) you can saturate the water with. The blower definately does a real good job with that.
 
First Class!

First Class!

Rick,
You have totally inspired me bro! First off seeing that you are an RN says alot about you, then to see that you are sharing this with others in a thread even multiplies your credibility! I wish I would have known about this thread earlier, but am atleast glad that I found it, it has been well worth the past 2+ hours of reading :) And I knew when I saw H20Eng in here posting that you where in good hands. There where many areas that I thought I could give some input on but after further reading you seemed to have totally worked out many of the kinks.

A few questions

Earlier in the thread H20Eng (Chris) asked about the salt method used for drying the air before evaporative cooling and I dont think you replied to it (Or I missed it :rolleye1: ) I am interested very much in this as well and would like any info you have on this topic....Links or whatever. Also on your Evap. Cooling pads are you using Excelisior Pads? I believe thats the name of the pad

Your intelligence, and diligence seems above par so forgive me if I play the devils advocate here for a few things but Im interested in your cooling approaches and if they will be adequate. You referenced many times about your pool being X temp during mid summer and using that as a reference, and also you referenced that you have warmer temps in the GH (greenhouse) when its very cold outside. My main question is, Is your pool closed in? if not then you have natural Evaporative cooling your pool in peak summer so I dont think this is a good reference, here again Im a florida boy so my voice is purely speculation. I would also like to hear from H20eng about his thoughts on this topic as well.

You obviously have all areas covered for heating and I realize that your ventilation/fans will serve as a main purpose for the cooling too. There are two types of Geo Thermals that I will be using and one will heat/cool my water but is much more expensive than just an underground loop. If you want me to go into more detail I can (I just dont want to clog this thread up) From your previous post you where getting into the water line when you where digging with the trencher to do some plumbing correct? If this is the case then by all means you have awesome potential for Geo-Thermal applications. H20eng correct me if im wrong. Do you know how far the freeze line goes down into the ground in your area Rick?

600-700 TDS from tap...and purifying your water. That is definately something you need to address as I see you are :) Have you thought about a well? From what I read you are using city water correct? A well could possibly be more effecient and much cleaner. Here again, we are different locales but I am familiar with a fish farm down here in Fl. that has gone down about 250' deep and is getting 3 TDS water from their well, im thinking they have tapped into an aquafer.

Skimmers
Definately like the CC skimmers you made...I did the same thing as you and made some large CC skimmers but found the temp. difference between nite and day would affect the skimmers effeciency and If I adjusted the skimmer during a cool part of the day I would come back out during the hot part of the day to find my skimmers overflowing and flooding :rolleyes: There are many catch 22's which im sure you are realizing to some of these approaches. I hated the idea of plumbing my skimmers inside the GH which I did like you. But eventually plumbed them outside the GH and want to (next go around) play with partially burying the skimmers, as I am thinking this may stabilize their temperature.

Sorry for the diahrea of the mouth :p

So whats the plan on tanks? glass? acrylic? fiberglass?

Rocky
 
reeftechie said:
Great setup bro. Would love to come check it out sometime. Will be well worth the drive.

RT
I love this:
B-N to Roberts:
Route 9 East to Gibson City, Route 54 Northeast to Roberts
The way I listed is ~55 miles driving down Main from my house to hit Route 9.
Finally someones cool project somewhat close to home :)

BTW someone mentioned something about the grounding, you can check from Neutral (Wide socket if properly wired) to ground and if you have over 1v you are either overloading the neutral or have inadequate grounding.

Also as a general note to check for pumps leaking current into your tanks measure voltage with a voltmeter from the water in the tank to ground this should be very low as well. In my freshwater tank I had a Penguin 330 (old) powerhead leaking 20 volts! This was not on a GFCI Circuit.
You should do this if you have any submersible pumps.
You can get grounding probs that carry this stray voltage away but they sometimes increase the ammont of current flowing through the water.

Also is the greenhouse grounded incase of a short to it's metal frame?
That could possibly prove to be a nasty shock if not...
Also if people will be coming to the greenhouse and it will be a showroom as well, I'd consider GFCI the outlets as the leaders in the circuit for the non-thermostat controlled outlets. That would further protect again splashes was well.

Learn from my mistakes, getting shocked by 120v when a tube falls out of your tank (a return from my sump) and landed on the the outlet behind the tank, when I was rearranging my 20L (read both hands in tank) is not fun. Salt water is VERY conductive ;) ZAP!
 
LegoZ81-There are GFI outlets as the lead outlets on both circuits that run down the sides of the greenhouse (for all of the outlets). The dedicated outlet for the blower is also GFI. I have a ten foot grounding rod for the house, ten footer on the greenhouse panel and eight footer on the generator. I do appreciate the info on checking for stray voltage and your contribution.
seldon-after recharging the deionizer, I have run about 150 gallons with the tds measuring from 1 to 3. The color is changing pretty rapidly though and will probably need recharging again before the RO units get here.
Unresistible Blue- just using regular limewood air diffusers. I usually use Lee's on my aquarium but am trying out Aquamedic brand on the greenhouse skimmers. If there is any difference, it's hard to tell because the skimmers are sized so differently and the vat is cycling fresh rock so there will be a ton of stuff in the water anyway.
scubadude-Thanks for all of the kind words, encouragement, and consider it inspiration returned. When I was doing the initial phases of research, your greenhouse construction, along with people like Dendronephthya, Treeman, and of course Calfo, was one of the ones inspiring me as well. Glad to have you along. H2OENG has made some valuable contributions in this thread for sure. The salt method is pretty straight forward. All of the specifics and how efficient it would be haven't been worked out yet. Some sort of container that would allow air to pass through would be placed outside the shutters and filled with salt. As the air comes in the shutters, the salt dries it thereby allow it to accept more moisture from evaporation. Theoretically, this would provide for a greater evap cooling capacity. I did check into some industrial desiccants but don't seem appropriate. Most of them are used in shipping applications for a short time. Others I have seen are used in combination with huge rooftop AC units like on large resort hotels. They are expensive for large quantities. They can be dried and reused but would require extra use of gas to have burners to dry the material or haul several hundred pounds back and forth from my household oven. That is not really an option either. It takes hours at 350-400 degrees to dry them and would take multiple loads in the oven and probably take a whole day to accomplish.
I am seeing now that the pool comparison isn't really appropriate. 13,500 gallons can't compare to even the 425 g live rock vat sitting in a greenhouse. If there are 2 or 3 days of cloudless skies, the temp in the vat creeps up to around 84, which by my way of thinking is pushing the limit. It seems like the sunlight itself, no matter what the temp in the greenhouse, contributes to heat gain in the water. Right now it's easy enough to compensate for by setting the shutters to open a little cooler, but come summer?....A man from our local club, Tschopp, had posted some good info about evap cooling in this thread. Geothermal is something I had read about in your construction and Treeman's but hadn't really considered it for this project. I'm not sure of the freeze line but would guess it's probably somewhere around 32"??? When I was plumbing, we were required to bury water lines four feet. Maybe someone in the club could speak up here if they know about the freeze line. Geothermal would have some potential here, the tap water temp at this time of year is around 55. In summer, it might jump up about 10 degrees. After the loop through system water and picking up heat, the warmer water could even be sent through the RO and increase it's efficiency.
I am on city water (technically) but it is just a series of 6 wells that is pumped up to the water tower. As far as I know, they just use chlorine and no other treatments. The water is very heavily laden with rust and it's a highly agricultural area so I'm certain it has phosphates as well. I have the town's water report for the last three years and the EPA report for my town's water but am pushed for time tonight and can't go dig it out right now. I'm thinking that any well I could drill would get the same water. I did have some trouble adjusting the water height in the skimmers. Mainly, I think, because I used ball valves instead of gate valves. One little movement of the ball valve resulted in a big difference in water height. I put some threaded adapters on the outlet ball valve and found that by turning the pipe up or down, I could get much finer control over the water height in the skimmer. I also added some 3" elbows to the bulkheads that feed the skimmers. The bulkheads were submerged and were not pulling water from the surface which left a ring of gunk around the vat. The ring is gone now. Don't hesitate to contribute, that what this thread was intended for. No body clogs it up by sharing information we can all gain from.
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:) vat looks much clearer now that the gunk is not able to be at the top.
Are you going to sell live rock also or would that require you to get a permit as you would possibly be reselling?
 
I have been following this thread for awhile now, and I have to say nice work!! I am a PhD student at UofI in the field of HVAC and in the past couple of years have gotten the SW bug and am having a blast doing it - although on a much smaller scale - student salary...

I am sorry to say that your salt will not work. There is a reason the industrial guys use desiccant wheels with gas burners to revitalize them. Think of it this way - you want to remove a great deal of moisture in order to vaporize it out of your tanks to keep them cool. This will require alot of water to be taken out of the air, now the problem (well not really, but it is how it works) is that as the water is taken out of the air with desiccant it heats up a good deal and an AC system is required to cool the air back down. Now the relatively cool dry air can absorb the heat from the tanks and cool them, but the desiccant is now saturated and needs to be dried so we heat it with a regenerator and gas/electric heaters and the cycle begins again.

I can go into this further if needed...

Perhaps as the temps start to rise this spring I can be of more help. I work relatively cheap...

Chris
 
why not dig a deep fresh water trough a good 10,000+ gallons simply for heat/ ballance buffering :)

and an in green house swimming pool!


or have you thought of putting monster fans over the waters surface to cool it.. [turn them off as you enter for noise] you can easily keep the water 8-10 degrees cooler than the air with enough air flow.. probably 4 degrees once the humidity sets in..
 
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