let the insanity begin

For easy reading.... read patent #4,430,228.

Its 20 years are up...

tcottle is right, and I do not want people to get the wrong idea... but there are no patent police and enforcement is left to the patent holder. I found this out at my last job, when we did not know about a patent infringement until we saw the idea on the shelves of Wal-Mart! It was the recharge kits for automotive AC systems that converted R12 (freon) to R134a. We dropped the enforcement charge after several thousands of dollars into the process. Basically the lawyers told us that to prosecute a patent will cost more than 500k and our little company did not have enough reserves for virtually no reward. I am still a little turned off on the patent process at this time.

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time...
 
Hey rick rottet don't feel like reading the whole thread(too lazy lol) but do you have any idea when your project is going to be finish?
 
Well, obarrera, I thought there would be at least one (or four) tanks running by last January (2005). Even if the iron removal system works the way it is supposed to, (might take a few weeks to tell for sure), there are still temp issues to be addressed. There have been plenty of good ideas on how to handle the temperatures, just a matter of deciding which is the most bang for the buck. Then the air blowing systems have to be modified (again) and a new manifold(s) installed for the linear pumps feeding the skimmers. (Oh, BTW all, Daniel from AES also said the air requirements he gave me were based on the small (1.25" limewood diffusers, not the 3" ones I am running. He now figures I need about 6.6 cfm to run the skimmers, not 2.2. He also told me the fine pore glass bonded diffusers require more air than the limewoods.) Soooo, I'm hoping I can get a tank going within a couple of months. It is going to be very tough to get through this coming winter. I had planned for last winter but thought the place would be in full swing by now. (like Marc said, plenty of time to read through the thread!)


I did get a 30% shade cloth over the entire greenhouse and the vat temp seems to have dropped by 4 - 6 degrees, depending on the humidity but still has plenty of light. I also covered 12' on the north end with another 30% cloth. That is the end the vat, furnace, and sink is on so there won't be any tanks under the double cloth.




Hey Treeman and scubadude, you guys staying safe down there in Florida???
 
I am good to, I was a little worried with Dennis for a little bit. Still way to hot. Heating issues on the tank also. I am going to install a swamp cooler this week with luck.
 
[hijack]And treeman, we still have August to get through. Good luck with the swamp coolers.

Let me know if you need me to rescue any frags. ;)

CArl
[/hijack]
 
Treeman,

Don't waste your time or money with a swamp cooler in FL.... You would do better with spraying the water from your tanks in the air and letting it fall back down - direct evaporative cooling...

You need an air-conditioner or a ground sourced heat pump!
 
cseeton said:
Treeman,

Don't waste your time or money with a swamp cooler in FL.... You would do better with spraying the water from your tanks in the air and letting it fall back down - direct evaporative cooling...

You need an air-conditioner or a ground sourced heat pump!

I already have evaporative cooling going on. I have two big fans blowing on the sump and tank. The one in the sump is blowing right past where the tank water is falling in. Maybe I will change the dropping water to a spray. I am only getting a degree or two. I was going to add to that with a swamp cooler thru my heat exchanger.

I may have to go to a chiller but didn't want to spend the money unless I needed to. I have a titanium exchanger. All I need is a compressor to do a chiller... right? The sytem is about 1100 gallons under 30% shade cloth in the GH. Tha ambient temp this time of year is between 80 at night to 99 degrees during the day. Tank temp stays around 84 with the two fans and my in ground sump and my geothermal loop. But I have to get thru August like Carl said.
 
Treeman (and Rick),

If you want to approach the wetbulb temperature (refer back to the link for psychrometric chart I include earlier), you have to maximize the water's surface area to the air. A water fall or just blowing air over the surface water is not enough; you need to spray the water up into the air and let it fall back into the tanks. When I lived in Georgia we did this to cool pools, the trick is to do it at night when the temps drop and hope the pool has enough mass to keep it cool throughout the day.

Treeman, your problem is that you live in Florida (which is a great benefit over the whole year, but in August& Sept not) where the wetbulb temperature may exceed your desired tank temperature, and you will need mechanical refrigeration to keep the tanks at the temperature you desire. Either that or you need a much bigger ground loop... what are your temps coming out of that loop this time of year? Do you know the flowrate and inlet temperature as well?

A nighttime temperature of 80F means that there is virtually no way you will see much benefit from evaporative cooling. I think you are going to have to bite the bullet and turn on your chiller for a few months.....
 
Treeman,
The wetbulb temp is the one to watch, as mentioned. If the wet bulb temp is even within a few degrees of your desired tank temp, you simply cant get enough evaporative cooling. If its about 10- 20 degrees lower, thats where you see some cooling. The lower the wet bulb, the more cooling you get.
For a chiller you will need a condensing unit that has the compressor, condenser, filter / dryer, and metering device. The Ti exchanger will be your evaporator (this also depends on the type of exchanger and how its constructed).
For 1100g, you will probably need at least 2-3HP condensing unit. That will call for 220V service.
What you may be able to do is find a used condensing unit for a home air conditioner (a full size one, not a window unit). It will cost a bit to get going, AND to run, but then its in place for those "above design" days.
You may want to de-couple the ground loop and insulate the tank and lines when using the chiller. Especially if the ground is 80deg and you are trying to cool to 80.
HTH
Chris
 
At the local research facility for aquaculture (mostly freshwater but they have a salt greenhouse) here in Tampa, they remove iron by spraying the input water through the air into a large vat. The oxidized iron sinks to the bottom of the vat and they take off the purified water for use. Periodically they vaccum the vat to remove the iron. I can send you a phone number if you are interested in calling them, they are friendly. They have dealt with a lot of iron feedwater issues in the past.

The freshwater aquaculture business here uses a lot of concrete burial vaults to raise fish (bought from the mortuary industry). They are about 7 feet long, two feet wide and two feet tall. The walls are about one inch thick. They are made of reinforced concrete and cost about $100. They require no bracing and hold about 250 gallons of water when full. They must be painted with epoxy paint to waterproof them. For aquaculture the manufacturer will insert fittings for drains. They weigh 800 pounds empty. I did not look at the details of the stands but I can find out if you are interested. I think they can be set on concrete blocks. They are not raised very high, probably due to their weight. I have seen these used for salt water.
 
Treeman had talked about spraying the water into a vat like you talked about. I had considered it for a while. I really don't have the room to put another big vat like that just to get the iron out. With a set up like that, I would also need to pump the water (or elevate the vat) to get it to go through the DI towers, and for sure would need a pump for the RO. Iron is not the only thing I'm worried about getting out of the water. I don't think that by just pulling out the iron, I'm going to reduce the load on the DI enough to go without the RO, just extend the life of the membranes. The water is really crappy here in this town. The only good thing about it is, I have only spent $48 total since I've had the water on in the greenhouse. I think it has been somewhere around 9 months. I already made the order for the system I posted the link for so I'm pretty much locked in to it.

Belive it or not, burial vaults were one of the items I looked at during my research phase. I checked out the concrete ones as well as the polypropylene (polyethylene??). The plastics were fairly expensive (like I could have had tanks fabricated for a similar price- IIRC around $300 - $330 a piece). The concrete ones, like you said, are very heavy. Difficult to move around without lifting equipment that doesn't fit through the door of the greenhouse. The freight fees for concrete would have made the difference in cost. I already have the tank situation resolved (in my own mind anyway). At some point in the future, if I use anything else, it will be glass.

I really do appreciate the ideas and suggestions.
 
spray water into a vat

spray water into a vat

You may get some other advantages from spraying the water into a vat, in addition to reducing your iron content. You may encourage other unwanted contaminates to precipitate.

You might consider using a polymer flocculant to improve your precipitation. This could remove all kinds of nasty stuff from your source water.
 
Well, let's see...what has been going on since my last update. I did get a new charger for my battery drill, so it is back in action again. :)

That Luft pump from Coralife did arrive and is a good air pump...for a hobby style diaphragm pump. It does pump as much or more air through it's single outlet with one lime wood diffuser as the Tetra-Tec DW24 does through both outlets with a lime wood diffuser on each outlet. The Luft easily has enough pressure to reach the bottom of the skimmers and then some, but so does the Tetra DW model. Both air pumps seem to be adequate for the application, the difference being only one lime wood diffuser is needed for the Luft pump. It would take about two years of running and changing only one lime wood diffuser per skimmer per month, as opposed to changing two diffusers per skimmer per month, to make up the cost difference. That is assuming either/both diaphragm style pumps will last for two years. I am still checking into the linear pumps to be able to supply multiple skimmers from one pump.

I did order some shade cloth for the greenhouse. I am using a 30% cloth over the entire greenhouse and another 30% cloth on the north end. That end is where the furnace, RODI filters, slop sink, live rock vat, and most of the water prep barrels are sitting. The water temp in the live rock vat and the black tub has dropped about 4 degrees when compared to the ambient temp. Of course, when it gets hot, the water temp is still too high. The hottest the water temp has been since putting on the shade cloth is 88. The ambient air temp right now (middle and end of July, 2005) is higher than it has been all year and the humidity is terrible. Yesterday, (7-21-05) the ambient air temp was 89, but the humidity was so high, the heat index was 102. The water temp had been getting up to 92 on some days before putting on the shade cloth. There is still plenty of light available inside the greenhouse. Remember, the water temp will only stay about 8 degrees below the air temp. The air temp inside the greenhouse is roughly 15 degrees higher than the outside air temp when all of the fans are running. If I shut off all of the fans, it can get to 140+ very easily. (Remember from last winter, outside temps in the teens and twenties, greenhouse temp in the 80's and 90's without the furnace running.)
mini-100_0436.JPG


The first blower (the one that had the melt down) has been repaired and sent back to me. After a period of waiting - complaining - more waiting - more intense complaining, they even paid for the return shipping. It is in place and did get an initial test. It was running for about six hours with the two bleed valves wide open and all of the outlets wide open with no appreciable heat gain. Then I closed the bleed valves and let it run for another two hours with just the outlets open and it was still fine, not hot to the touch, just comfortably warm. Lesson to all, don't try to push air from a blower through a lime wood diffuser to the bottom of a five foot tall skimmer. If the blower is too hot to touch, it is being overloaded and will eventually fail. Anyway, I will only use the blower to bubble in the airlift tubes for tank circulation and in the water prep barrels for aeration. At some point, I may add some lift tubes to the live rock vat to help circulation once I get a raised platform in the vat to keep the rock off of the bottom.
mini-100_0435.JPG


The transmission in my Blazer decided it had had enough. Reverse stopped working and I don't think it was shifting into the overdrive either. It took eight days for the dealer to get a new transmission and get it changed. Really a terrible and unsatisfying experience filled with lies and broken promises. I don't know how people who treat their customers like that can stay in business. Some day, all of this bad luck has got to run out. I do have to say thanks to my sister-in-law who loaned me one of her vehicles during that time.

The iron removal system has been installed. In the pic below, you can see the black water line that goes out to the greenhouse has been cut and white flexible pvc tube runs over to the system and back to the black line. The short unit is the oxidation tank. Water comes into it first. It sucks in air through a venturi so it always has a pressurized air space at the top of the canister where the water enters. The air starts the oxidation of the iron. Keeping the air pressurized accelerates the oxidation process. There are 500 free-floating baffles to keep the air/water mixture churned up. Next is 100 pounds of calcite which elevates the pH of the water and further accelerates the oxidation. Then there is 50 pounds of some kind of gravel to start filtering the rust and ensures a steady even flow of water out of the first canister to the second. The taller canister is the filter tank. It has 20 pounds of gravel, 20 pounds of coarse garnet, 32 pounds of fine garnet, 70 pounds of greensand, and 12 pounds of anthracite to filter the oxidized iron (rust). Sorry Chris, no carbon.
mini-100_0434.JPG


This morning (7-22-05) I woke up at 6:20 am. After I flushed the toilet, the toilet tank wasn't filling and the water pressure in the house was very weak. I went into the cellar to see if I could find something wrong and found that the short canister was stuck in the backwash mode. We had some storms last night so I thought maybe the power flashing off and on might have affected the timers. By 9:00 am, it was still back flushing (at 8 gallons per minute) and the toilet tank still wasn't full. That canister is set to start back flushing at 2:00 am. I didn't think it should take seven hours or more to back flush this system, so I called Hick's to come check it out. The tech who installed it came right over and played with everything for awhile. He thinks the timer wheel was too tight and wasn't letting it turn properly. He adjusted it and turned the timer manually to run it through several cycles and thinks it should be good to go now. The way my luck has been running lately, I'll be surprised if the thing doesn't explode today. I think I'll give it a few days to break in before I run anything through my brand new prefilters and RO membranes.

I am starting to get excited again. Now the facility is back to where it was in January the last time I was getting excited about setting this whole project up.
 
Rick,
Nothing good comes easy.
I'm sure its little comfort while you're in the midst of all of this frustration, but think how much more this project will mean to you when you've finally beaten the obstacles laid in your path.

Nick
 
One thing is for sure: If anyone ever asks you if you recommend they set up a greenhouse for coral propagation, you'll be able to categorically state <b>No!</b> with all the ease in the world. :rolleyes:

You might consider setting up part of the greenhouse to raise orchids to get a little return on your expenditures thus far. ;)
 
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