rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Thanks Lego, your contributions have helped me learn, especially with the info when we were talking about all of the cooling mechanics.
let the insanity begin
- Thread starter rick rottet
- Start date
LegoZ81
New member
no problem, I don't know much but I'm glad to offer up what little I do know...
I got a rough quote for a GSHP (Ground Source Heatpump) system for my house... yeah... 10-15k installed...
:O
So instead I just picked up a 1.5 ton 12 SEER Central AC unit with everything for 900 bux.
(already have a 90% AFUE Furnance) this is going to be much nicer next year than my window airs.
Now I just need it to get here and to get it installed.
Following that my next project is to figure out out to reduce electric costs associated with my Salt tank. it's got a Rio 1400, CAP 1200, 200 watts of heat (RARELY on), 175 halide, 72watts of PC 03 Actenic and the pump for the skimmer rio 300 or something small...
I just bought a house this summer and there is a big difference between running the salt tank and all of the equipment with me paying the electric bill instead of my mom :O
I got a rough quote for a GSHP (Ground Source Heatpump) system for my house... yeah... 10-15k installed...
:O
So instead I just picked up a 1.5 ton 12 SEER Central AC unit with everything for 900 bux.
(already have a 90% AFUE Furnance) this is going to be much nicer next year than my window airs.Now I just need it to get here and to get it installed.
Following that my next project is to figure out out to reduce electric costs associated with my Salt tank. it's got a Rio 1400, CAP 1200, 200 watts of heat (RARELY on), 175 halide, 72watts of PC 03 Actenic and the pump for the skimmer rio 300 or something small...
I just bought a house this summer and there is a big difference between running the salt tank and all of the equipment with me paying the electric bill instead of my mom :O
I ran into cseeton today. It sounds like his vote is that it might not be practical to run the geothermal without a chiller. He pointed out a few things that I had not considered. On a closed loop down a well, the water will cool on the way down, and then will heat back up a bit on the way up because it is close to the hot water that is going down. I still think the well would work better than a loop near the surface.
His other concern was in the quantity of water that would need to flow through the loop. He recomended I run some numbers assuming a 5F temp drop. For 60,000 btu/hr I get 24 gpm or about 1500 gal/hr. It seems like 2 gen-x pumps would be able to do that as long as the pressure drop is not too bad.
I guess I still think it could be done without the chiller. The number of wells you are talking about sounds higher than I would expect, but I don't have much experience with that.
Would it be possible to try 1 well and see how much heat you can dump to it?
It might just be the expirimentalist in me coming through, but it seems like that would answer some questions like how much heat do you really need to dump and how many wells would that take.
I think you will also need a titanium tube for the heat exchanger in the tank.
Steve
His other concern was in the quantity of water that would need to flow through the loop. He recomended I run some numbers assuming a 5F temp drop. For 60,000 btu/hr I get 24 gpm or about 1500 gal/hr. It seems like 2 gen-x pumps would be able to do that as long as the pressure drop is not too bad.
I guess I still think it could be done without the chiller. The number of wells you are talking about sounds higher than I would expect, but I don't have much experience with that.
Would it be possible to try 1 well and see how much heat you can dump to it?
It might just be the expirimentalist in me coming through, but it seems like that would answer some questions like how much heat do you really need to dump and how many wells would that take.
I think you will also need a titanium tube for the heat exchanger in the tank.
Steve
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
I have all but given up on the geothermal. I think it holds allot of potential here with the ground temps being what the are, just seems like it is going to cost more than what I can do at this time. I am still talking with one guy online about it, but sounds like he wants to quote for a total system to heat in winter and cool in summer (climate controlled greenhouse), and I'm pretty sure he will be planning a heat pump. He hasn't shot a price at me yet, but probably more than I can spend right now.
One way to do it I have left to consider, is to run one long straight run out into the field and back. I think H2OENG had mentioned using the field a ways back. I did talk to the guy who farms that land one time when I asked his permission to cut down those trees that were between the field and the greenhouse. He seemed like a real nice guy and it wouldn't hurt to ask him if it would be possible for me to do that.
I was thinking, I could run a trencher from the greenhouse out into the field about 2200 feet then turn around and come back. Maybe I could run an anti freeze mixture in the loop and only go down two feet instead of four. Then the trenching would go much faster and I could do it myself with a rental instead having my well drilling buddy do it with the big riding trencher.
I am still a little perplexed by the temp difference between the black tub and the live rock vat. Seems like the tub is always about 4 degrees cooler than the vat. I have two hypotheses.
1) As I said before, maybe, since the vat has sides that are semi-translucent, it allows a bigger surface area for solar gain. Sunlight comes through the sides and top, where as the black tub has solid sides and only allows sunlight into the top.
2) The glass thermometer in the LR vat is being affected by the sunlight hitting it through the translucent sides of the vat, and the thermometer in the tub has the sunlight blocked from hitting it directly since the sides are solid. In the vat, the thermometer may be experiencing it's own little greenhouse effect.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I did go back and look through the thread. Back on page 9 (I think), Wagerja posted a link for some DIY chillers. There were two links and both guys were building 1/2 HP and 3/4 HP for around $150 and $200, respectively. They were using the coils and fans from 5K BTU or 6K BTU window AC units in an insulated bucket or a cooler filled with water and tubing plumbed from the tank also in the bucket. Maybe I can squeeze twenty of those out of the budget or just do a couple at a time until.......
Anyway, I did go ahead and set (back) up the first tank today and built/plumbed the skimmers into it. I think I'll fill it tomorrow and put in some rock, just for grins and giggles.
One way to do it I have left to consider, is to run one long straight run out into the field and back. I think H2OENG had mentioned using the field a ways back. I did talk to the guy who farms that land one time when I asked his permission to cut down those trees that were between the field and the greenhouse. He seemed like a real nice guy and it wouldn't hurt to ask him if it would be possible for me to do that.
I was thinking, I could run a trencher from the greenhouse out into the field about 2200 feet then turn around and come back. Maybe I could run an anti freeze mixture in the loop and only go down two feet instead of four. Then the trenching would go much faster and I could do it myself with a rental instead having my well drilling buddy do it with the big riding trencher.
I am still a little perplexed by the temp difference between the black tub and the live rock vat. Seems like the tub is always about 4 degrees cooler than the vat. I have two hypotheses.
1) As I said before, maybe, since the vat has sides that are semi-translucent, it allows a bigger surface area for solar gain. Sunlight comes through the sides and top, where as the black tub has solid sides and only allows sunlight into the top.
2) The glass thermometer in the LR vat is being affected by the sunlight hitting it through the translucent sides of the vat, and the thermometer in the tub has the sunlight blocked from hitting it directly since the sides are solid. In the vat, the thermometer may be experiencing it's own little greenhouse effect.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I did go back and look through the thread. Back on page 9 (I think), Wagerja posted a link for some DIY chillers. There were two links and both guys were building 1/2 HP and 3/4 HP for around $150 and $200, respectively. They were using the coils and fans from 5K BTU or 6K BTU window AC units in an insulated bucket or a cooler filled with water and tubing plumbed from the tank also in the bucket. Maybe I can squeeze twenty of those out of the budget or just do a couple at a time until.......
Anyway, I did go ahead and set (back) up the first tank today and built/plumbed the skimmers into it. I think I'll fill it tomorrow and put in some rock, just for grins and giggles.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Hmmmm. Maybe. Sounds as reasonable as anything I can think of. Plus there are two external pumps driving the skimmers on the vat. Those two pumps are 1200 gph each (but throttled back). I do remember unplugging the two external pumps when the blower crashed and the skimmers were non-functional. That didn't seem to make any difference in the temps at the time. I can't ever remember unplugging the Mag 36 to try that.
The black tub did have a Mag 950 in it, but now just has the bubbler lines. I'm trying to remember what the temp difference was when the tub had the 950 in it, but my poor (halfway) old brain ain't working very well this AM. I should probably start a journal...and probably will once I get a tank going.
The black tub did have a Mag 950 in it, but now just has the bubbler lines. I'm trying to remember what the temp difference was when the tub had the 950 in it, but my poor (halfway) old brain ain't working very well this AM. I should probably start a journal...and probably will once I get a tank going.
If you dig the trench into the field, you will want to go down 4-5 feet so that you will be below the frost line and your tubes will not rise. It would be bad if the farmer hits them next spring during planting.
Your tank differences could also be that black tank loses more heat in the night because they radiate heat better. I remember doing something like that in high school physics class.
Your tank differences could also be that black tank loses more heat in the night because they radiate heat better. I remember doing something like that in high school physics class.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Ah yes, plowed water pipe = bad.
So that means a very slow digging process if I use a rental, or pay for my friend to come in with his riding trencher.
GRRRR
Building 1/4 or 1/2 HP chillers is starting to look better. Drawback is electric cost.
So that means a very slow digging process if I use a rental, or pay for my friend to come in with his riding trencher.
GRRRR
Building 1/4 or 1/2 HP chillers is starting to look better. Drawback is electric cost.
LegoZ81
New member
OOPS! I already posted some of this 
I am not old enough to be senile yet so I have no idea what my problem is
you might want to look into 12-13 seer central ac... has the potential to save some you money one both energy and overall cost. you could put the coil into the a tank of water and have it chill that down to a temp that will pull the tanks down to what you need them. the benifit is that you can put a thermostat on it that measures the tank temp directly and cycles the A/C on and off only as needed (have the water flowing thru the intake heat exchangers full time and cycle the central air unit on and off as needed to cool the water in the heat exchanger circuit.)
I MIGHT be able to get you a hook up on the unit, and coil.
I Myself am doing central air at my house and may have some left over refridgerant line that you can have to save you some additional cost.
I purchased EVERYTHING needed to add central air to my exsisting fan forced furnace for 893. you don't need the length of lines or wire etc as i do or a cased coil so you have the potential to get a really cheap setup. My setup is a 12 SEER 1.5 ton.
I am not old enough to be senile yet so I have no idea what my problem is you might want to look into 12-13 seer central ac... has the potential to save some you money one both energy and overall cost. you could put the coil into the a tank of water and have it chill that down to a temp that will pull the tanks down to what you need them. the benifit is that you can put a thermostat on it that measures the tank temp directly and cycles the A/C on and off only as needed (have the water flowing thru the intake heat exchangers full time and cycle the central air unit on and off as needed to cool the water in the heat exchanger circuit.)
I MIGHT be able to get you a hook up on the unit, and coil.
I Myself am doing central air at my house and may have some left over refridgerant line that you can have to save you some additional cost.
I purchased EVERYTHING needed to add central air to my exsisting fan forced furnace for 893. you don't need the length of lines or wire etc as i do or a cased coil so you have the potential to get a really cheap setup. My setup is a 12 SEER 1.5 ton.
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rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
Sounds interesting. You are installing this AC yourself?? cuz I would probably need some help (at least info) to set up something like that.
So, just so I am clear, this would chill a big vat of water, then have the aquarium water piped through the vat in a separate tubing? Much like the smaller units from the links back on page 9, just on a bigger scale?
I don't know how seer relates to BTU/Watts/tons/HP, but as near as everyone else can figure, I will need about a 5 ton unit when I get fully stocked. (OR- 60,000 BTU, OR-17,400 W, OR 25 HP).
Know how I can figure/guess how big of a vat I would need to accomplish this? Is it dependent upon the temp of the water in the vat? (The greater the temp difference, the higher the heat transfer rate, theoretically).
Just as a get started point, this also means higher electric costs, plus more pumps running to pump aquarium water from each tank SEPARATELY into the vat.
Maybe I could divert the water from the pump that feeds the skimmers into the vat first, then return to the skimmer. The I wouldn't need an additional pump for each tank. Or I could set up a manifold and use one pump to circulate the chilled water through the tanks.
So, just so I am clear, this would chill a big vat of water, then have the aquarium water piped through the vat in a separate tubing? Much like the smaller units from the links back on page 9, just on a bigger scale?
I don't know how seer relates to BTU/Watts/tons/HP, but as near as everyone else can figure, I will need about a 5 ton unit when I get fully stocked. (OR- 60,000 BTU, OR-17,400 W, OR 25 HP).
Know how I can figure/guess how big of a vat I would need to accomplish this? Is it dependent upon the temp of the water in the vat? (The greater the temp difference, the higher the heat transfer rate, theoretically).
Just as a get started point, this also means higher electric costs, plus more pumps running to pump aquarium water from each tank SEPARATELY into the vat.
Maybe I could divert the water from the pump that feeds the skimmers into the vat first, then return to the skimmer. The I wouldn't need an additional pump for each tank. Or I could set up a manifold and use one pump to circulate the chilled water through the tanks.
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
So, AC units of many different sizes/capacities can have the same seer rating?
Can a 5,000 BTU AC have a 12 seer rating and also a 60,000 BTU unit also have the same rating?
Can a 5,000 BTU AC have a 12 seer rating and also a 60,000 BTU unit also have the same rating?
Sushi Reef
New member
:lmao:
Ok, here is another one... 60,000 Btu/hr = 5 tons of refrigeration..
Most mid sized houses use a 3 ton system. A large house uses a 5 ton system. If you decide to go this route, let me know. I can help you put it together, BUT, I hope to leave the area this winter/spring (graduation).
Most mid sized houses use a 3 ton system. A large house uses a 5 ton system. If you decide to go this route, let me know. I can help you put it together, BUT, I hope to leave the area this winter/spring (graduation).
rick rottet
reefkeeper// propagator
cseeton, let's get down to some nitty-gritty here.
I think we can pretty much forget about using chillers-AC units. They will just be too much operating expense to use for this application. My last elec bill, before I got the blower back running, was only 815 kW ~~ $66. So, 5,000 kW ~~ $400 added to the current bill plus another $100 for the blower, not to mention I only have two pumps running full time right now which will increase to 22 in time.
There was only one company-so far-that I talked to about geothermal who gave me any kind of idea about how much pipe they run underground. That was the guy who said for their 5 ton systems, they run five well holes 150 feet deep with pipe running down and up each hole for a total of 1500 feet of pipe underground. (Those systems use a heat pump)
After tschopp and I banged heads for a few nights, he thinks it would take 2 or 3 times that length of pipe without a heat pump to get the cooloing capacity close to the equivalent of 5 tons. I also think that a geothermal system would do it without a heat pump if the loop is long enough. Taking the highest guess, would mean 4500 feet of pipe underground.
Let's say the pipe is 1" and buried 4' deep. tschopp had figured a flow rate around 1500 gph to accomplish the heat transfer.
Are there some calculations that can help figure more precisely if this length of underground pipe would be adequate? (or to figure exactly how much pipe I would need to bury?)
That is just the underground part, then how would I go about figuring how much tubing to coil up inside each tank?
.
I think we can pretty much forget about using chillers-AC units. They will just be too much operating expense to use for this application. My last elec bill, before I got the blower back running, was only 815 kW ~~ $66. So, 5,000 kW ~~ $400 added to the current bill plus another $100 for the blower, not to mention I only have two pumps running full time right now which will increase to 22 in time.
There was only one company-so far-that I talked to about geothermal who gave me any kind of idea about how much pipe they run underground. That was the guy who said for their 5 ton systems, they run five well holes 150 feet deep with pipe running down and up each hole for a total of 1500 feet of pipe underground. (Those systems use a heat pump)
After tschopp and I banged heads for a few nights, he thinks it would take 2 or 3 times that length of pipe without a heat pump to get the cooloing capacity close to the equivalent of 5 tons. I also think that a geothermal system would do it without a heat pump if the loop is long enough. Taking the highest guess, would mean 4500 feet of pipe underground.
Let's say the pipe is 1" and buried 4' deep. tschopp had figured a flow rate around 1500 gph to accomplish the heat transfer.
Are there some calculations that can help figure more precisely if this length of underground pipe would be adequate? (or to figure exactly how much pipe I would need to bury?)
That is just the underground part, then how would I go about figuring how much tubing to coil up inside each tank?
.
woah, slow down... the AC would only pull - in the worse case- 5kW/hr*30days*24hrs ~ 3,600 kW in a month and that is if it runs continuosly. Since it is very unlikely that you will run it during the evenings (possibly a couple if we have a warm rain that raises the humidity too high). Otherwise, you can use your fans to evaporate and cool. So, already we have cut your cost to 1,800 kW/month or about $150 a month for cooling (and that is only a couple months a year). It will take many,many years to break even on that ground loop only system unless you use the heat pump option and run it in winter for heating.
Treeman
New member
Rick, You also don't have to put the big a/c system in. Why don't you do what I am going to do and put in a 2 ton unit to run what I have now and see how I like it. I think that the 2 ton is to big for the 1100 gal sytem, but if it is then I can use it for a few more as I go. If I need another system then I will buy it later. I only think we need the chiller for 3-4 months a year (fingers crossed).
