let the insanity begin

[Reefvet]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Boy do you deserve that one, and many more. I've been reading this thread since you started and haven't posted until now. Your efforts and dedication are certainly commendable.

One quick question re: the Extech light meter. Does it have a water proof probe or are you covering the probe up somehow to water proof it ?

And are you happy with the meter or would you prefer a different one having used it ?

Thanks in advance for any info..

 

[melev]

Rick, we need better pictures that that. Try making one of these, now that you've been working with plastic/acrylic.

http://www.melevsreef.com/topdown.html

 

[rick rottet]

Reefvet- thanks for the kind words.
The extech meter did not come with a waterproof sensor/photoreceptor. I unscrewed the two halves of the sensor's case, lined the joint with silicone as well as the rim of the receptors bulb where it touches the top half of the case, screwed it back together, then lined the outside of the joint, the outside rim of the photoreceptor bulb and all screw holes with silicone. I have been using it for over two years now with no problems. IIRC, that meter was about $170 at http://www.inspectortool.com/lightmeter.html
looks like they have them on sale right now for $155. This meter had the highest range available at that time. Most of the waterproof ones I looked at were in the neighborhood of $275 -$300, so for me, to invest a couple of dollars in a tube of silicone (which I already had anyway) was well worth it. It has been satisfactory for me in this application. The actual readings were important when I did my research, but now all I really need is a comparative. I don't have anything negative to say about this meter.

melev- best I can do with a clean tray and my POS Kodak Easy Share CX4310. You got PM comin'.

 

[rick rottet]

The second tank getting a wet test.

The cross braces on this tank were set up a little differently than the first tank. On the first tank, the lower two braces were located by dividing the tank into three equal parts. The top braces were then located by finding the center of those three equal parts. There is a longer distance between the braces, but an unequal length between the last brace and the end of the tank.

This second tank has three upper and three lower braces, so the tank was just divided into four equal parts. This left an equal distance between all three braces as well as the space between the end braces and the end of the tank. The extra brace in the lower position combined with the equal spacing down the length of the tank has made this one much straighter when full. I was satisfied with the first tank, I know it is sound and will hold, but this one just looks better. The difference is clearly visible.

Second tank.

First tank.

As expected, those evap pads from Atlas arrived just like clockwork. They are installed and operational. I also installed some actual pond liner in the troughs because I envisioned the vibration from the pump would wear a hole in the plastic that was in there for my initial experiment with the green pads. The vertical pipe was also shortened an inch so the pump doesn't sit on the bottom of the liner, it just sort of hangs there suspended off of the bottom of the trough. That should eliminate any chance for the pump wearing a hole in the liner.

I rigged a temporary semi-auto top off system.The pads are made of stiff corrugated cardboard (or kraft paper) and little bits of the material were getting stuck in the holes in the horizontal pipe. That is why there is a dry spot on the pad in the pic below. That problem was solved by simply installing the sponge screen on the inlet of the pump, and then cleaning out the holes in the pipe. The water coming out of the holes in the horizontal pipe let the water splash around quite a bit, so I cut some strips of the green material to wrap around the pipe and long enough to hang down to the top of the new pads. This distributed the water more evenly across the width of the pad and almost eliminated the splashing.

I do have the parts ordered for a real auto top off system. Only thing I expect to have trouble with is the fact that the tap water will have to be used for the top off. This will leave mineral deposits on the pads and shorten their life span. Right now, I am using the RODI water but those 58 quart (14 1/2 gallon) tubs only last about 3 to 3 1/2 hours and I have to run out there several times each day to fill them. The RODI can keep up with the need during the day (29 gallons every 3 to 3 1/2 hours), but that only leaves the night time to run water for the barrels and tanks.

The pads are definitely helping. The last several days, the outside ambient temperatures have been in the low 90's and humidity in the 55 - 70 % range. The temp inside the greenhouse has not gotten above 94 at any time. Having a peak of 94 inside the greenhouse seems to keep the tanks in the range of about 77 at night up to 81 at the highest. Remember, a week ago the temp inside the greenhouse was 96 when the outside temp was in the mid 80's with only the fans running for cooling. The big exhaust fan also doesn't turn on until about 9:30 am when it used to come on about 8 am before the pads were installed. When the exhaust fan first turns on, it only runs for a few minutes. The thermometer can literally be seen to be dropping, then the exhaust fan shuts off again until it really starts warming up inside the greenhouse, then it is on for good. The air coming in through the pads is around 76 - 78. Now maybe the evap pads won't give me the absolute ideal desired temp when the outside temp is above 100 and the humidity is very high, but I think it will help enough to keep the corals happy. If it starts raining inside the greenhouse, then I'll know I'm in trouble.

 

[Oblivionis]

Wow, it took me three days but I finally finished reading this thread. Rick, you are a very patient and hard working man. I don't know if I would have been able to overcome all the obsticles you encountered.

I don't know if you have the problem of cooling down the GH solved, but in case you don't, I have an idea:
I see that your house is close to the GH. You have a basement and I assume you have some kind of AC in the house.
Why not install a big tank in your basement and run a closed loop cooling line from the GH to that tank in your basement. With the AC in the house running I'm sure the basement air temp. never goes above 74F. That means that the water in the basement tank will be around 74F and that should be enough to cool down the water in the GH. And if the CL cooling line runs deep enough in the ground between the GH and your house, it will help to cool it down even further. If it gets humid in the basement, just cover the tank to minimize evaporation. If the tank water becames too warm, just lower the air temp. in the basement.

What do you think?

 

[jnarowe]

I think the gound temp. would be considerably lower than the basement and burying a pipe network feeding a titanium heat exchanger would be much cheaper than running the AC in the house to cool the GH.--J

 

[rick rottet]

Oblivionis- Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate the fact that you spent your time to read through the thread.
As far as the cooling idea, a similar idea was discussed with several people who have more experience/knowledge than me about cooling mechanics. (one of the things that made this project even possible was discussing ideas with people who have more knowledge than me about a variety of subjects.) The general consensus was that any body/vessel of water that could be kept cool enough would/could cool the tank water in the greenhouse.... if there was enough volume of the cooler water. Whether that body of water was a lake, a buried tank, a tank with a chiller, geothermal loop(s) ... or in a basement. The limiting factor, according to cseeton, (who's opinion I value- among others- because of his course of study and background in cooling mechanics) is that the cooler bodies of water would not have a great difference in temperature from the tank water. A tank in the basement, or anywhere else, with a temp of 74 would not be that much different from the tank water at 84 (when I would want the cooling), so the heat flow out of the tank water would not be very efficient. Even considering that the basement air being 74 would put the water temp around the 60 - 65 range, the temp difference is not that great. When we think about heating/cooling, think about how hot the fire in a furnace is or how cold the freon in an AC gets just to make a difference in our houses. Then consider that water heats/cools MUCH more slowly than air. To be able to have the temperature from the tank water balance out with the temp of the water in any cooler body of water, it appears that the cooler water would need roughly 3 times the volume of the water in the tanks. I would need something very similar to the size of my swimming pool to achieve that. (swimming pool is 24' diameter X 4' deep, but doesn't stay cool enough.) Also, the fact that my tanks will all be plumbed separately would make the installation of such a system all the more complicated when compared to having one big tank/system.
For right now, the evap pads are doing just fine. With the outside air temps in the low 90's, the pads are keeping the air temp inside the greenhouse from getting any higher than 94 and the tanks are running decently with a peak temp of 81 when they are allowed to drop to 77 overnight. My hope is that the pads will be "good enough" keep me away from the more expensive options like geothermal and/or chillers and/or heat pumps as well as keep me away from more intense labor like digging up miles of earth....again.
As an aside, I do have central AC in the house, but the basement is mostly unfinished (i.e.- a dirt floor, except for the area where our water softener, water heater, and my new iron removal system sit, that area has a concrete floor), but the furnace/AC doesn't control the climate in the basement. It is more like a crawl space that is deep enough that we can walk through it, with an area of 14' X 14' that is concrete we call "the cellar".

jnarowe- probably right, although running three miles of buried pipe isn't all that attractive to me either.

 

[jnarowe]

I understand about the digging! Another large tank owner from RC that I have spoken with has an interesting system:

In short, he runs his ground water through a heat exchanger and into a bin. In the bin, the water warms up, and is used to supply his RO/DI system. When the display tank gets warm, a solenoid opens a valve and runs the tank water through the other side of the heat exchanger while allowing the well water to flow.

Anyway, that solves 2 problems that I have as well. First is bringing the well water up to temp. so that the RO/DI system operates efficiently. My well water comes out at 45F in the Winter and 55F in the Summer.

Second is that it cools the display tank when needed. With the amount of make-up water you are going to need in a 94F green house, that may be a simpler and easier to maintain system than the pads etc., with probably less long-term maintainence.

Keep in mind I have NOT read your entire thread and do not know all the issues you have faced. I am following it recently for tips on cooling as I am building a 1,200g system.

I also may use a variant of the above system running the coolant through a coil in a coffin freezer filled with water and anti-freeze, or using a buried copper tubing coil.--J

 

[Oblivionis]

Rick, thanks for considering my cooling problem solution and explaining why it might not work.
I can't wait 'till you have some corals for sale so I can make the trip down there and see your famous greenhouse.
Paul.

 

[rick rottet]

Oblivionis- Your idea does have merit and indeed would work. For me, and in this situation, it would just be a little impractical. If I had heat issues on a 500 gallon tank in the house, it would be a viable alternative to have a 1,500 gallon vat/sump in the basement.
I have said all along, anybody who has an interest is welcome to come by and peep the place, just still not too much to see yet.


jnarowe- with the system your friend has, what happens with the well water when it is flowing but the holding bin is full? (a couple of the issues I did have with a tap/well water cooling system was poor drainage and illegal around here to return "used" water into the aquifer)...which I find to be totally ridiculous. This is almost all farmland around here with all sorts of agricutural chemicals leaching into the soil, lakes and streams, not to mention that about 75% of the towns in a 50 mile radius has septic systems for household and industrial waste....and they are worried about me pumping well water up to the surface and then back down into the ground just as pure as when it came out...but it's okay if I dump 1,000 gallons per week of salt water on the ground and another 3,000 - 4,000 of reject water from my RO unit. GRRRR
(stepping back down off of soapbox)

For make-up water, my 425 gallon live rock vat seems to be using an average of about 15 gallons per day, sometimes more, sometimes less. I haven't ever measured it to be precise, just judging by how much water I have to pump out of one of my 55 gallon barrels to top it off. I have been pumping top off water from a barrel into the first tank as well, but now am trying the same plastic tub over the first tank as seen in the pic that is above the evap pads. I had to top the tank off about three times a day because there is a fairly small volume in the tank's overflow box. Those tubs hold 14 1/2 gallons. The tub went up over the tank in the morning of the 11th and I had to refill it this afternoon. A little over 4 gallons per day ain't really much. (of course, X 20 tanks). I had thought that one of those blue barrels might last three days for ten tanks (which was all calculated from the amount of top off of my 40 gallon private tank), but now that I have a better idea of exactly how much water is getting evaporated, it looks like one barrel wouldn't even last two days for ten tanks.

Right now, there is a bit of labor involved with the pads just because I am filling those tubs manually. As soon as I get the float valves installed and adjusted, (received them today), it should be a "hands off" system. (famous last words!)

Your freezer idea may have merit for a single system like you are talking about. IIRC, we were figuring about 60,000 btu/h for a set up of my size, so maybe 15,000 btu/h (like a 1.5 ton capcity AC or a 4,350 watt chiller) would be a good starting place for you to figure running costs.

I am pretty well resigned to using the pads. I already had/have the auxiliary equipment (shutters, fans) in place and they are definitely necessary in a greenhouse, so the extra investment in a small pump and the pads seems like a good investment for the return. It doesn't cost much at all to run a Mag drive 3 pump even if it runs 24/7 (which it won't). The fans and shutters use very little power as well and will necessarily be running anyway, might as well have them perform mutiple functions.

Good luck with your system and let us know how it is going or post a link in here if you run a thread about it.

 

[jnarowe]

Good question about the extra water. He said he uses so much it really isn't a problem, but the overflow go down the drain. I figure it could be set up so that it only flows when the tanks needs cooling. An extra solenoid etc. wouldn't be too bad. Because he is getting about 4:1 brine to RO/DI out of the system and uses a lot of water, that's a considerable amount flowing cold at a very slow rate. At your rate of 3,000-4,000g per week, it is a viable option I believe. I certainly get your point about using the fans as double duty, and wonder whether that would help in my installation.

Typical chillers are way to inefficient for cooling large bodies of water. I liken it to the bar owner near my store that put AC in the kitchen. He spent a load and can't run it because it can't catch up with the heat production. Total waste. He also put the ice machine in the dish station. Oh well.

I can run the freezer, which I already have, and consume far less power than using a chiller. I also will be installing 2 or 3 6" fans with the input under my deck. One fan will run all the time, and 2 will kick in when the tank is over 78F. I am a big fan of removing hot air, rather than blowing in cold air.

The soil by my house is averaging 45F - 50F depending on the season, so that might be the cheapest option.--J

 

[rick rottet]

I wasn't suggesting to run a chiller, just that using that size of a chiller/AC as a comparative might be a good place to start to figure what the running costs might be for the freezer. I don't know how hard a freezer would have to work to keep the water/coolant inside of it cold enough to lower the temp of a 1,200 gallon system when that system is trying to dump heat into the freezer.

The 3,000 - 4,000 gallons per week is the amount of waste water rejected by my RO set up, (or at least theoretically it will be when I get to full capacity and have the RO units running full time). Having to dump that much water down the drain really irks me, I just haven't found a satisfactory alternative to RO. That iron removal system was a start. Maybe if I could find a similar system to pull most of the rest of the crap out of my water, a straight DI would be adequate.

I did discuss with a few people about using the RO waste water to help cool down the tanks, but there just wouldn't be enough volume for twenty tanks.
We also looked at making what amounts to a tap water chiller, then running that water into the RO. Like you said, the RO would be more efficient with warmer water. Problem there is not enough drainage. The water getting fed into the RO wouldn't have enough volume, so the excess tap water would have to go somewhere.

I checked out your web site. Very unique business you have there. Are you setting up a fragging sytem for corals, or a holding place for live food items?

 

[jnarowe]

LOL...that's funny! I am just setting up a reef tank for my home. Since my stroke last July, I haven't been in to my store. And yes, it is a unique business for sure. I really enjoy selling marine stuff for cost plus 10% and screwing the other marine stores. It's very satisfying.

I may go with the underground "grid" anyway. I want to rip out my deck and put in terraces, so I will have access the "underground" anyway.

It all depends on what you are remving from your supply water. In my case, our well has a scant 70 - 80 ppm, so it is considered very low solids. It has always been good tasting and no one on the well uses filteriing of any kind. The problem arose when I was trying desperately to solve a problem with my FW planted tank. I just couldn't keep the phosphates and nitrates down. I tried all sorts of chemical "tricks" but some of those actually contained phosphates, with a label reading, "Safe for all fish and plants". I tested the well water over a period of time and found that although it varied day-to-day, that water had nitrates and phosphates in it as well as a very high pH, so when I did water changes, I was just adding more of the stuff I was trying to remove. It made me crazy and I switched to RO/DI, which BTW, is cheaper than the giant filter I was using for drinking water.

The waste water is collected in barrels and with a timer, I use it on my vegetable garden because the "brine" has lots of nitrate and phosphate. That means I don't need to use any fertilizer. My RO/DI comes out at 0 ppm and 7.0 pH but that is not neccessary for your uses. In fact as you know, I have to add back in all the salts and minerals even for the FW tanks. When I get the 1,200g system runninig, I will use the waste water for all my yard watering needs. So in essence, there will be zero waste water.

BTW, I am not sure what your source is, but your input water must be over 60F for your RO system to work properly. If not, your membranes will not last very long, and your production rate will diminish severely. I run my RO supply line through the heated output bin. I keep the RO/DI output bin at 78F and have 100ft. of supply line coiled in the bin and running back to the RO system. That way my output water is warm enough for the tank, and my input water is warm enough for the RO system. Make sense?

As far as finding an alternative to RO, I don't think there is one, other than building a septic mound like a Glendon and filter your water through that and back to your system storage. Understand what I am saying? I have a 5 bedroom house and a Glendon septic system that consists of 3-1000g tanks that feed to 5 mounds. It can process 750g per day. It is an expensive system, but the output is potable water. In theory, you could build a couple of these mounds, run tap water into it, and capture the output for your system.

I don't think that straight DI would really be needed. I am using it because I am insane and want to make sure there is zero phosphate or nitrate, but it is overkill. In fact, for your business, I would consider using partly contaminated water. Not a lot, but some. Let's say you propagate awesome corals under ideal water conditions and your product makes its way to the average aquarium store or end user, who doesn't use ideal water or doesn't maintain his RO system, what happens? The coral will crash because it is used to ideal water conditions. If you raise coral that can grow well in slightly adverse conditions, wouldn't the end user have more success with it? How about the store owner who takes it in and it grows well in-house? He or she will be back for more.--J

 

[rick rottet]

Hmmm... I had thought of coiling the incoming tap to cool the tanks before running into the RO, and thought of coiling the RO waste water to cool the tanks before going down the drain, but I could coil some tubing in my live rock vat just to warm up the incoming tap for the RO. The vat runs a few degrees above what the first prop tank is running anyway. I really like some of the ideas you are using with your RO.


I disagree (but not in whole) with trying to prop coral in slightly adverse conditions just to make sure someone else can keep them. It would be like saying it's ok to have poor husbandry practices. Let the other people keep their tanks in a manner that they should be, it wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't want to risk the chance that I might start to grow a tankful of frags with hair algae... or worse, what would the end user think about that. IMHO, the healthier the coral is that I pass along, the better their survival rate is going to be. If the end user/shop owner has less than ideal conditions, the coral is most likely going to stagnate/decline anyway, but will decline slower/last longer if it is healthier to begin with. I would say that some corals would for sure benefit from some extra nutrients ("contamination") in the water, but with live rock, those nutrients are provided, no need to intentionally add extra stuff.

Keep me/us posted on your progress with your reef.

 

[jnarowe]

good points on the frags. I guess it's always wise to turn out the very best product you can anyway. That's what I always try to do.

The extra tubing costs very little and it really helps the RO system.--Jonathan

 

[rick rottet]

Wish we would have had this discussion more than a few days ago. I had ordered 130 feet of RO tubing to plumb the float valves for the evap pads, could have ordered a bunch more for the loop to warm up the RO water. Oh well, I'm sure there will be another order right around the corner.

Good luck with your venture(s).

 

[Covey]

Good lord hats off to you man. I have read this monster thread I am very impressed. We need to figure out how to vote you for "Tank of the month" . Okay maybe system of the month. Were is Roberts? I am form Moline Il.

 

[rick rottet]

Thank you and I appreciate you spending your time to read through the thread.
Roberts is about 45 miles south from Kankakee.
Also about 45 miles north from Champaign.
Also about 45 miles east from Bloomington.

 

[Covey]

Cool there isn't crap for local fish stores in the Quad cities. Once you got ever thing up and running I might have to come and buy frags from you. Good Luck.

 

[boxer85]

I had thought that one of those blue barrels might last three days for ten tanks (which was all calculated from the amount of top off of my 40 gallon private tank), but now that I have a better idea of exactly how much water is getting evaporated, it looks like one barrel wouldn't even last two days for ten tanks.


1.When you add more tanks, the humidity in the GH will rise
2. You've added the evap pads
3. your overall temp in the GH has been reduced.

one barrel MAY last longer than two days for ten tanks once they are all set up...