Let's all break the rules!

[robthorn]

Wondering what or who is the driving force behind this?
I get store owners having issues with this because it creates competition for them but thats the only reason I can see. Why as hobbiests would we have a problem with this when one day we should all hope to have the problem of overgrown corals needing to be trimmed. At least I do. And at the rate my corals are finally growing I will have this problem soon. I will be registered as a hobbiest and I hope to be able to unload my trimmings here.

 

[oldsaint]

Would you want us to base a decision based on the last 20 days of activity?

Of course not. But, It should throw up a red flag. Further investigation would expose 2 years of threads that consist 80%+ coral for sale threads. I don't see how this reflects the goal stated in RC's Mission Statement.

Our goal is to help educate people about the saltwater aquarium hobby and enhance awareness of the fragility of coral reefs around the world. We hope you will join us and that you find this site useful.

IMO, RC has a place for posting mass coral for sale threads and a club forum or across multiple club forums is not the place.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[Ted_C]

Rob - I have no motivation other than following the rules and making it fair for everyone. If we are not supposed to profit here - then those people who wish to profit should go the same route as others: become licensed, start up a website - or sell on other less stringent channels.

If it's a matter of answering a few questions here and there - allowing that person to sell whenever and however they want - then that should be allowed too.

Edit: I dont want anyone banned. I think everyone here contributes to other threads and offers advice and answers.

 

[janes_mw]

I would venture to say almost none of us make any money at this and do it to help offset the high cost of running a reef tank capable of this type of fragging environment. There are some that do it as a hobby business, but the couple I know, are licensed and actually are a business but don't advertise on this forum. Are there a few that do, yup, pretty sure of it, but it isn't the norm based on the frags I have bought from various folks on this forum.

Most of the little bit of money I take in from selling a few frags does indeed go right back into the LFSs for supplies and equipment, so there are two sides to this as a hobbyist. If I couldn't afford the hobby, I would not be able to purchase items (from LFS), so policing these sales may just drive some of the folks out of the hobby (zero sum game).

Just my 2 cents, not worth much as usual ........ but they are my very own 2 cents

 

[Travis1787]

I would venture to say almost none of us make any money at this and do it to help offset the high cost of running a reef tank capable of this type of fragging environment. There are some that do it as a hobby business, but the couple I know, are licensed and actually are a business but don't advertise on this forum. Are there a few that do, yup, pretty sure of it, but it isn't the norm based on the frags I have bought from various folks on this forum.

Most of the little bit of money I take in from selling a few frags does indeed go right back into the LFSs for supplies and equipment, so there are two sides to this as a hobbyist. If I couldn't afford the hobby, I would not be able to purchase items (from LFS), so policing these sales may just drive some of the folks out of the hobby (zero sum game).

Just my 2 cents, not worth much as usual ........ but they are my very own 2 cents

You took the words right out of my mouth Mike.... I doubt anyone makes money on their coral selling to consider it a real profit. If I'm ever selling anything its usually to take that money into a store and get something else. Funding my own addiction haha

 

[Worleyxxx]

I don't think the occasional sales are the issue here, it's the people who "break their tank down" every weekend and unload massive amounts of corals. How many times do you have to break your tank down? It is so blatant at that point that they're selling corals that they're growing week after week but nobody does anything. There's been threads from members who sell corals about their elaborate frag and growing systems with pictures. Some of these systems rival those of lfs in size and complexity. Those are the "for sale" ads that need to be policed. There is nothing wrong with growing lots of coral because you enjoy it, but it's hard to argue some people aren't growing it simply to sell with how frequent they post and the systems they brag about running. At the end of the day you have members concerned as well as LFS concerned, without the LFS I would not be in this hobby. The knowledge I've gained from physically walking into the store with pictures and talking far outweighs a coral I can get here from some Joe Schmo who has no licenses and sells for a dollar a polyp.

 

[acro-ed]

I have a solution that keeps everything impartial and just: No coral "For Sale" threads.

We could publicly allow trades and "free pick up" threads, and allow "sales" between members privately via PM, but shut it all down publicly.

People could solicit PM's for coral for sale via "want to buy" ads, and they could PM people directly who had posted pics of the corals they are looking for. This would encourage relationship building between members instead of seeing the same people "breaking the rules" publicly. This would also encourage people to take a more active role in posting pics and joining in, as prospective buyers would seek out people near them who had impressive pics.

This would also reduce FWC's presence here and would also assuage the concerns of the fish store owners. There would be no need to "interpret" or "police" anything, and it would save the Mods a LOT of time and reduce needless headaches. There would also be no argument that RC is "complicit" in "allowing people to break the law;" they could say "see, we discontinued coral sale threads; what our members do privately is their problem."

I don't like it, but this would make it fair.... it is not practical for anyone to go on a fact-finding mission to distinguish the line between "sell" and "profit."

-Ed

 

[nitr8]

I have a small tank with large SPS colonies that I grew out from small frags. I post sale thread after sale thread because constant pruning is necessary to limit aggression between them. If local shops are upset because they cant maintain a system that allows them to grow out desirable corals or sell any given coral at a reasonable price than I say that's their problem. Same as acro-ed, I have a creek that runs the length of my property and have thrown many frags or even small colonies in there because the coral grows faster than I can sell it and I simply do not have room for it. Coming down on me or anyone like me for distributing what we have to the community at a better price than the stores can offer is ridiculous and frankly not my problem. Instead of the stores complaining that I sell more coral than they do maybe they should rethink their business plan. Also dont just look at recently started threads, look at posts. I agree that 99% of my threads are FS threads but I regularly post opinions and answer questions to the best of my ability. I am an active member of this community. Like Cuzz said, if you dont want to see my threads than ignore me. If you stores are losing customers because I or anyone sells coral for a better price than adapt or close your doors.

 

[ganjero]

Elaborate frags system do not mean anything, many in this hobby enjoy the propagation part of it, and I bet they do not even break even when selling their frags. Running this "elaborate" frag system also means higher costs.
The reefing "community" in this area is the most divided I have seen, and for the most ridiculous reasons such as this one or being crazy loyal to a LFS. I bet they have not seen seen the tank or even met they person being accused...

 

[Worleyxxx]

There is nothing wrong with these systems and enjoying the growth of coral, that's what I said in my comment. The problem is the people who set those up with the sole purpose of selling everything they grow and don't get the required licenses and permits to do so. I've had abundance amounts of coral that grows and starts taking over, instead of selling it I just bring mine to lfs for trade or just give it away to local members. I get my enjoyment out of watching it grow and interacting with it. I agree with Acro-Ed, ban coral for sale ads all together and this wouldn't even be an issue. People will still sell through pm's as most people know who the heavy hitters are on here for collector pieces.

 

[BrianD]

This thread demonstrates how difficult it is to make everyone happy

 

[robthorn]

Amen Brian. It is not possible. Only thing this thread will do is make more coral end up in ditches. This crap is the same reason I am about to throw at least a soccer ball size patch of xenia in the garbage. Not worth store owners talking behind my back saying I opened a business and I am making them close their doors.

 

[bwhit1406]

I have personally seen the system that this thread seems to be about and can tell you it is not a frag for profit operation. It is a very mature tank with healthy coral and not much room to grow. I can see that if you only see the forsale threads you may get the wrong idea. I try to support the LFS's in our area whenever i can but can not afford to get certain corals from them that may be priced out of my price range.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk

 

[IrishTang]

If the end result of this thread is more people throwing corals in ditches or woods then we have failed as hobbyists and caretakers of the animals we keep and proclaim to love. I would also submit that unless you work for the FWC, deciding who is licensed is out of your purview. I can certainly understand the LFS side to this and hate to see the infighting among members of this great local forum, one of the biggest and best in the country.

 

[BrianD]

I feel that if we can "respectfully" discuss this fact then it furthers the board.

That is your perception, not a "fact".

I don't know why it is, but the vast majority of people who are warned for something on this board will respond that they are being "singled out" and that the mods are "protecting" someone.

You can believe that there are conspiracies or ulterior motives, but the simple fact is that most moderators have no idea who the sponsors are. There are no "objective" black and white determinants for a commercial post. By definition, our rules are subjective. I would submit that the rules are enforced as objectively as possible (limited by the subjective nature). I think the issue is more one of consistency. I would not (and could not) state that the rules are always enforced consistently. However, it isn't from lack of effort.

Have I mentioned how ironic it is that I am TRBC forum defending the moderators for NOT shutting down a selling thread?

 

[BrianD]

By the way, I appreciate the discussion. Tone is difficult to convey over the computer screen, but I take no offense at anything that has been written. As I said before, we can have a mature discussion without devolving into a fight.

 

[MrHarvard]

Everyone really needs to take a step back and just breath for a second......this forum along with the majority of all other forum based sites has turned into drama ridden, my opinion vs your opinion battle ground. This thread for the most part has remained civil but like always there are a few encrypted jabs being thrown by certain individuals who have personal issues with other members or sponsors in this community. It seems like anytime a thread involving conflict is posted, regardless of the topic, these same people always manage to involve people or issues that have nothing to do with the intended topic of discussion. Personal "beefs" and the "pick a side" mentality always cause any productive discussion to be derailed or put to an end. In regards to the rules and the policing the moderators do, that is for the owners of the website to determine. At the end of the day no one is forced to log into this site or to continue frequenting it if you don't agree with the way it's ran. As a hobbiest I personally see both sides of the argument but this is my hobby and not the way I make my living. I'm sure that if anyone of us owned a sales based business and a bunch of individuals started breaking rules/laws and selling the same product affecting sales we would all be more concerned. Follow the rules and respect one another......cheers!

 

[acro-ed]

By the way, I appreciate the discussion. Tone is difficult to convey over the computer screen, but I take no offense at anything that has been written. As I said before, we can have a mature discussion without devolving into a fight.

I would hope everyone agrees that you are being reasonable here, and I would expect you to defend your own actions and the actions of your Mod-teammates. I agree that rules can only be objective to a certain degree, especially these rules as written. I absolutely agree that the "issue" is not from lack of effort. My perception is that you guys have a massive uphill battle with this, and that no matter what happens someone is going to be upset.

The "problem" that Ted originally raised, and which I am championing here, is, as you said, "consistency in enforcement." I stated it as a matter of subjective "choice to enforce" when two people doing two "very" similar things are treated differently, but I will defer to your explanation that this is a "consistency" issue due to the overwhelming volume of potential violations of the rules that must be examined.

From my perspective, I don't know if I am risking being banned if I list something for sale or not. I have a 16 ft.2 frag system; it was necessary to jump to this years ago because, like Nitr8 and others, the display corals were growing that fast. Of course this would give the impression that it is a "for profit" move, when in reality I would have to dedicate more time than I ever reasonably could if I wanted to "profit" from it.

I don't think there is a grand conspiracy either, but I have definitely heard "xyz LFS owner complained and that is why his/her account was banned." This is hearsay, but I've heard it repeatedly over the years. I have also known directly of "xyz person/LFS called FWC to complain...". I have also been privy to conversations of "Yes, I did PM the mods to "get" such and such off of there." It HAS happened. I know of people who have had FWC destroy coral on site because of their (FWC's) fundamental ignorance of what is protected by law and what isn't. It is all getting out of hand.

As much as I hate it, I think the best solution is to stop sales threads and make sales private. It eliminates your burden in this mess, and it shields "good" hobbyists from retaliatory action by bitter LFS's and ignorant FWC officers (not that they all are). I hope the business owners don't take that as a "slight" to them; there are several "great" business owners here that may have felt threatened in the past, but who honestly have nothing to worry about. Simply put, it would cut down on all the infighting between the different segments of the industry.

Thanks for your candor and your continued efforts to further this board and the hobby,

Ed

 

[BrianD]

I would hope everyone agrees that you are being reasonable here, and I would expect you to defend your own actions and the actions of your Mod-teammates. I agree that rules can only be objective to a certain degree, especially these rules as written. I absolutely agree that the "issue" is not from lack of effort. My perception is that you guys have a massive uphill battle with this, and that no matter what happens someone is going to be upset.

Yep!

The "problem" that Ted originally raised, and which I am championing here, is, as you said, "consistency in enforcement." I stated it as a matter of subjective "choice to enforce" when two people doing two "very" similar things are treated differently, but I will defer to your explanation that this is a "consistency" issue due to the overwhelming volume of potential violations of the rules that must be examined.

Yep, again. There is a perception that we are singling people out at times. The reality is that not every moderator will look at a situation and handle it the same way.[/quote]

From my perspective, I don't know if I am risking being banned if I list something for sale or not. I have a 16 ft.2 frag system; it was necessary to jump to this years ago because, like Nitr8 and others, the display corals were growing that fast. Of course this would give the impression that it is a "for profit" move, when in reality I would have to dedicate more time than I ever reasonably could if I wanted to "profit" from it.

Remember, people aren't banned for "selling". People are removed if they violate a forum rule, and, after being warned, continue to break that rule.

I don't think there is a grand conspiracy either, but I have definitely heard "xyz LFS owner complained and that is why his/her account was banned." This is hearsay, but I've heard it repeatedly over the years. I have also known directly of "xyz person/LFS called FWC to complain...". I have also been privy to conversations of "Yes, I did PM the mods to "get" such and such off of there." It HAS happened. I know of people who have had FWC destroy coral on site because of their (FWC's) fundamental ignorance of what is protected by law and what isn't. It is all getting out of hand.

Sometimes people hear something other than what was actually said, or the story changes through the retelling. However, as Paul Harvey would have said, there was probably more to the story. Consider this: what motive would any moderator have to protect or defend a LFS? We do our best to stay out of moderation-type activities in club forums local to each of us. That removes the appearance of conflicts of interest. Can I guarantee nothing ever happened? No, but I truly believe that RC has had a tremendous group of moderators over the years, and I would bet any incidents would be isolated.

As much as I hate it, I think the best solution is to stop sales threads and make sales private. It eliminates your burden in this mess, and it shields "good" hobbyists from retaliatory action by bitter LFS's and ignorant FWC officers (not that they all are). I hope the business owners don't take that as a "slight" to them; there are several "great" business owners here that may have felt threatened in the past, but who honestly have nothing to worry about. Simply put, it would cut down on all the infighting between the different segments of the industry.

Certainly that has been considered, but the #1 rebuttal would be that RC has turned its back on the attempts to save the reefs from over harvesting. We must do our best to support local sharing and fragging, not stifle it.

Thanks for your candor and your continued efforts to further this board and the hobby,

Ed

You're welcome, and thank you for the civil tone.

 

[Birtikidis]

Amen Brian. It is not possible. Only thing this thread will do is make more coral end up in ditches. This crap is the same reason I am about to throw at least a soccer ball size patch of xenia in the garbage. Not worth store owners talking behind my back saying I opened a business and I am making them close their doors.

My wife loves xenia.. you can throw it in my ditch if you'd like.