143gadgets
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Quick Question:
Should one not use ozone while dosing alcohol?
Should one not use ozone while dosing alcohol?
Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing
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glassbox-design
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that is correct. ozone is a no go.
that is correct. ozone is a no go.
stony_corals
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Riiiigggghhhhtt... good to have you back mesocosm!
stony_corals
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I think, as usual, that mesocosm points out a misconception about denitrification, this is absolutely key, that a source of P (required for bacteria growth) is required for a zeolite-based system to work, and to a lesser extent, an organic carbon dosing regime. All living things require P to live, N as well. Where I believe the thinking to have gone astray is the function of denitrification. So many time, I hear that denitrifying bacteria eat NO3... this is hardly the case. The O is a source for the bacteria to respire. Bacteria can do the same with PO4, I can not speak to preferences or strengths of molecular bonds or anything such.... A limited P environment, where you are twice daily shaking the zeolites results in bacteria mulm that is either exported (consumed, skimmed etc) or may be it simply takes a stroll into the tank and continues to grow there. If these bacteria are consumed/exported, bacteria need a source of P to continue growth/reproduction etc... if there is no P, there won't be any bacteria to cultivate.
I'm not saying with any confidence that our systems are P limited by any stretch... A nice Hach colormeter would be nice to test this out though....
Ozone and bacteria... this is one of those things that keeps coming up in probiotic threads..... In looking back to the original Iwan thread, were he stated no on ozone, Mesocosm posted a link to one of Randy's articles stating that the amount of ozone that we use in aquaria are not high enough to kill the bacteria off. Again, I'm sure this will be construed as heresy.... Randy further posited that ozone, at the levels we employ, isn't a good use to kill off the bacteria and microorganisms.... Now UV on the other hand....
btw, e&f, love how the tank is coming along! (still never answered my question about those fixtures?!?!)
I'm not saying with any confidence that our systems are P limited by any stretch... A nice Hach colormeter would be nice to test this out though....
Ozone and bacteria... this is one of those things that keeps coming up in probiotic threads..... In looking back to the original Iwan thread, were he stated no on ozone, Mesocosm posted a link to one of Randy's articles stating that the amount of ozone that we use in aquaria are not high enough to kill the bacteria off. Again, I'm sure this will be construed as heresy.... Randy further posited that ozone, at the levels we employ, isn't a good use to kill off the bacteria and microorganisms.... Now UV on the other hand....
btw, e&f, love how the tank is coming along! (still never answered my question about those fixtures?!?!)
stony_corals
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Peter, your memory serves you well.... yes, Jorg and Jens indicated that ozone should be employed with vodka dosing to combat the lowered dissolved oxygen levels that the bacteria can cause...
Also, what does it matter if the ozone does kill the bacteria once it's in the skimmer, since aren't we trying to remove said bacteria with the skimmer anyway? I see no reason why ozone, in a reactor or skimmer, would have any affect on the bacteria in the tank....
If this is true I believe my tank should be dead at this point.
Ozone should not react in an negative way with introduction of CS.Ozone at the levels we use and our poor judgement of running it through a skimmer gives little time to effect bacteria; let alone kill them. Though ozone may have benefits for reduction of C=C double bonds in organic molecules within the water column. Think toxin breakdown...
I don't think Randy mentioned UV as an effective method to kill bacteria. UV is used to sterilize bacteria essentially destroying their ability to reproduce.
Skimmers don't remove bacteria from the water column. I believe the current data supports that it is mostly mucus being removed from the water column. Think of it as a lipid moiety removal method.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12288344#post12288344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
If this is true I believe my tank should be dead at this point.
Ditto
That's really my only expectation from its use.
Hmmm, not sure on that one....I've seen my beckett pull out some mightly large pieces of stuff from the water column. And my skimmate can certainly smell like my cultures at work :eek2: when I overdid the vodka a while back. If your skimmer isn't removing the bacteria, what's the point of making them multiply to consume N and P?
143gadgets
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Thanks everyone. I am gonna try it out and see if it makes any difference in coral coloration. I don't have any problems with nitrates or phosphates. i would like to get better colors out of my corals though.
glassbox-design
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Which fixtures?
Send me a PM, I honestly don't recall the question 
Genetics,
I apologize if that's not the case. I spoke with a few people at IMAC the previous year who had some issues using prodibio and ozone (and UV), after that conversation and the Zeoheads tisk tisk on the subject I assumed it was legit.
Question for you all,
Recently I have found 1 drop of any carbon source creates a small bloom. For a few years now we've dosed regularly with good results. This is a new tank that all livestock was transfered to and was established with Prodibio BioDigest. Any insight on this?
Have you ever grown liquid suspension cultures such as E. coli? If you spin those down and remove the supernatant and resuspend in the same amount of liquid ask yourself which one smells better
. The supe is going to smell way worse than the actual bacteria. This lends to the argument that it would be waste biproducts of the bacteria and not the bacteria itself. In addition, I believe halitosis is caused by the sulfur compounds excreted by the bacteria harboring themselves in your mouth.
I don't think skimmers will really remove bacteria. The lipids from when they lyse/die the bacterium falls apart and those organic molecules could be skimmed. As for N and P reduction. Organic molecules often contain C,N,P,O, and S (to an extent). These molecules complexed together could be skimmed whereas inorganic molecules, such as NO3 and PO4, cannot.
No need for apologizing.
It may be the case with these tanks. I'm not terribly familiar with this system.
I believe they've also reported potassium deficiencies. Which I haven't seen any concrete evidence for either.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12290204#post12290204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Have you ever grown liquid suspension cultures such as E. coli? If you spin those down and remove the supernatant and resuspend in the same amount of liquid ask yourself which one smells better
Ah excellent point :thumbsup:
However, and someone else can chime in on this, but I've been going through this whole process/thread under the impression that the whole point to vodka dosing is that the bacteria consume the N and P, and are then removed by the skimmer. Did I miss a whole point somewhere along the way that in fact we are actually allowing the bacteria to convert the N and P into a more "skimmable" form and then killing/lysing the bacteria, and removing the N and P that way? I thought that's the reason vodka dosing needs to be done with a large skimmer. I'm confused....
Well i think what genetics is saying is, the skimmer still needs to be efficient for carbon dosing to work, but its the bacterial waste and dead bacteria thats being skimmed, not the bacs themselves.
In response to potassium..
I have a pink cap that was very pale. Lets just say it wasnt long for this world.
I dosed 1 1/2 bottles of KCL and its now showing much improved color and PE. Seems to be a need by certain corals " in a carbon dosed system" for K.
I'll add, I dont use Zeovit. I use seachem matrix in a phosban reactor, and i dose glassbox-designs v/s/v mix.
The reason i bring this up is there has been speculation that the zeolites adsorb K
Most likely the increased bacteria in a carbon dosed system is responsible.
In response to potassium..
I have a pink cap that was very pale. Lets just say it wasnt long for this world.
I dosed 1 1/2 bottles of KCL and its now showing much improved color and PE. Seems to be a need by certain corals " in a carbon dosed system" for K.
I'll add, I dont use Zeovit. I use seachem matrix in a phosban reactor, and i dose glassbox-designs v/s/v mix.
The reason i bring this up is there has been speculation that the zeolites adsorb K
Most likely the increased bacteria in a carbon dosed system is responsible.
Canarygirl
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I had understood before, rightly or wrongly, that it is the bacs themselves that get skimmed out, not just their waste products. It does seem logical that it could be only their waste products however, and I'm willing to buy into that theory. I just find that it's difficult if not near impossible to find written descriptions of what is happening that are both clear and complete. The nuance in a single word can skew the entire meaning and then throw in a bunch of people's theoretical interpretations from scientific abstracts etc., and I'm like, "OK, whatever!"
Greetings All !
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
The Red Queen (Alice in Wonderland)
I thought I'd let the 'skimmers don't remove bacteria' thing germinate for awhile because, like the Red Queen, I too like to believe impossible things before breakfast. Impossible things like ... skimmers don't remove bacteria. I also waited because what has been suggested touches on one of the almost never discussed ... but functionally critical ... topics characterizing the "probiotic" strand of CS dosing strategies.
Bacterial Leakage.
I would respectfully submit that, even in CS strategies that do not actively detach bacterial biomass into the water column, skimmers do indeed export bacterial biomass that has become suspended in the water column ... both as free-living cells and/or colonies, and as cells attached to a variety of particulates (including inorganic particulates such as mineral precipitates, and organic particulates such as algal remnants, polymucosaccaride fragments, and detrital macro-aggregates).
Bacterial leakage is a fundamentally different dynamic.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
The Red Queen (Alice in Wonderland)
I thought I'd let the 'skimmers don't remove bacteria' thing germinate for awhile because, like the Red Queen, I too like to believe impossible things before breakfast. Impossible things like ... skimmers don't remove bacteria. I also waited because what has been suggested touches on one of the almost never discussed ... but functionally critical ... topics characterizing the "probiotic" strand of CS dosing strategies.
Bacterial Leakage.
I would respectfully submit that, even in CS strategies that do not actively detach bacterial biomass into the water column, skimmers do indeed export bacterial biomass that has become suspended in the water column ... both as free-living cells and/or colonies, and as cells attached to a variety of particulates (including inorganic particulates such as mineral precipitates, and organic particulates such as algal remnants, polymucosaccaride fragments, and detrital macro-aggregates).
Bacterial leakage is a fundamentally different dynamic.
JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:
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