Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[SDguy]

Letting us fester in our own bacterial quandaries...shame on you!!

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12292051#post12292051 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm

I thought I'd let the 'skimmers don't remove bacteria' thing germinate for awhile because, like the Red Queen, I too like to believe impossible things before breakfast. Impossible things like ... skimmers don't remove bacteria. I also waited because what has been suggested touches on one of the almost never discussed ... but functionally critical ... topics characterizing the "probiotic" strand of CS dosing strategies.

I'm curious if you could point me to a study that shows bacterial skimming as an efficient method to remove free-living bacterium. I see many people talk about the bacteria being skimmed but I see no concrete evidence of such. Can it be done? Sure. Any sort of bacteria producing a biofilm may be skimmed out but that does not mean in any such way that this is the main export of organics from the water.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12292233#post12292233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
I'm curious if you could point me to a study that shows bacterial skimming as an efficient method to remove free-living bacterium. ...

J.D. van der Toorn (1987), A biological approach to water purification: I. Theoretical aspects, Aquatic Mammals 13(3): 83-92
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jaap/WtTheory/WtTh_3.htm


Can't find the source document (Conway & Ross, 1980) right now, but the critical bit regarding your question is referenced here ...

"The materials that can be removed by foam fractionation include of course many organic substances such as proteins, fatty acids, polysaccharides and phospholipids (Kinne, 1976; Conway and Ross, 1980). Also larger biological material can be removed that way: flocs, bacteria and algae (Conway and Ross, 1980)."

Specific Anchor:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jaap/WtTheory/WtTh_3.htm#Fractionation

The paragraph that the previous bit is extracted from is perhaps also worth a few moments ...

The materials that can be removed by foam fractionation include of course many organic substances such as proteins, fatty acids, polysaccharides and phospholipids (Kinne, 1976; Conway and Ross, 1980). Also larger biological material can be removed that way: flocs, bacteria and algae (Conway and Ross, 1980). Although the paper does not deal with foam fractionation as such, but with the behaviour of air bubbles in water, it can be derived from Johnson et al (1986) that also viruses can be removed with foam, since they can be trapped in the film, surrounding air bubbles. Also inorganic material can be removed by foam fractionation, if it forms some kind of bond with organic matter. This can happen in 2 different ways. Calcium carbonate (Degens and Ittekkot, 1986) and calcium phosphate complexes (Tri, 1975) can collect organic material around them, while also other materials can do so. So-called micro-flocs are often a combination of organic and mineral matter (Eisma, 1986). The flocs thus formed can be removed as already mentioned above. The other way inorganic matter can be removed in by the formation of ligands of organic molecules with metal ions. Certain surfactants, especially glycoproteins, have a high affinity for trace metals (Liss et al, 1975) so that several metal ion species can be removed by foam fractionation. (See Eichhorn (1975) for an overview of the organic molecules that can act as ligands for trace metals)

The van der Toorn article is WELL worth the time to at least ... hmmm ... skim through ... hehe ... :lol:
(Sorry. Had to be done. )


:thumbsup:



With regards to larger micro-beasties ...

An integrated photobioreactor and foam fractionation unit for the growth and harvest of Chaetoceros spp. in open systems
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=5ffab952bda1e0cae5ceb1f86ca395aa

:thumbsup:



You asked about efficiency ... foam fractionation is to dissolved organics & small particulates what solvents are to hydrocarbons. Industry has been taking advantage of this for quite some time. A few examples:

A suggestive patent description for using foam fractionation to remove bacterial contamination from a fermentation process ...
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4189538.html


A more detailed description of a foam fractionation wastewater management device patent ...

"The present invention provides a continuous or batch treatment process for the treatment of water that comprises a foam fractionation system, also termed a particulates air separation system, and can be used for but is not limited to: (i) the removal of manganese or iron compounds; (ii) the removal of leachates (inclusive of metal ions and soil contaminants); (iii) the production of class"A"or"B"irrigation water from wastewater obtained from raw sewage mining; (iv) the production of class"A"irrigation water from class"B" irrigation water (as defined in the South Australian Reclaimed Water Guidelines and the Queensland Guidelines for the safe use of recycled water); (v) the removal or partial removal of nitrates, proteins, fatty acids, polysaccharides and phospholipids; (vi) the removal or partial removal of biological material inclusive of bacteria, viruses and algae; (vii) the removal or partial removal of colloidal material; and (viii) the removal or partial removal of inorganic matter."

From:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2005058760&IA=WO2005058760&DISPLAY=DESC

Granted ... these last patent links are weak indeed in terms of the kind of reference you asked for, but I would submit that industrial types wouldn't even be looking at foam fractionation if it didn't have application efficiencies.

JMO ... :thumbsup:




Aquaculture suggests that protein skimming can remove bacteria ...

The removal of dissolved proteins has always been a problem in high-density breeding situations. Carbon dioxide, ammonia, and excrement are not the only waste products. Other substances are present from decomposing feed, urine, lime, and metabolic by-products. In addition, there may be algae, phenol, and a number of saprophytic bacteria that damage the gills, limit growth and promote disease. These dissolved substances and the suspended solids increase B.O.D., nitrates, colour, odour, flavour, and turbidness. BRIO thus ensures the efficient removal of proteins, suspended solids, organic substances, including amino acids, fatty acids, enzymes, fats, many inorganic compounds, phosphorus, protozoans, and bacteria.

Absolute Aquaculture Africa
http://absoluteaa.camarahost.co.za/index.php

:thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12292233#post12292233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... I see many people talk about the bacteria being skimmed but I see no concrete evidence of such. Can it be done? ...

Hehe ... I'm chuckling in familiar recognition because this is one of the questions I asked myself when I first became exposed to these kinds of systems. Skepticism is a good thing.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12292233#post12292233 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... but that does not mean in any such way that this is the main export of organics from the water.

Your point is very ... very ... well taken.




Anyway ... I'm intensely interested with what's going on with "organics" in the water column these days, but not the kinds that have been discussed so far. I'm focused right now on (A) refractory organic compounds; and (B) isoprenes, more specifically ... terpenoids (aka isoprenoids). So what's actually going on with foam fractionation is of interest ... also ozonation.

Not meaning to leave anyone "festering" ... hehe, that was a good one ... but if folks want to suggest alternatives to bacterial export via protein skimming with regards to bacterioplankton strategies, I would very much like to read what they have to say.




JMO ... out.
:thumbsup:

 

[isseym328]

Hey guys,

Just found this thread today and been reading most of the posts. I'm starting a new tank and I will prob be using a skimmer for waste removal. From what I have experienced with skimming I've always wondered why I still have algae growth/blooms and you guys seem to be discussing that topic at the moment.

My question is if I set up a new tank with new livestock (including rocks/sand/etc) do you think it's prudent to start this vodka treatment at the beginning? Or should i wait until the tank matures and the cycles are more stable? I really want to find a way to get rid of the access algae that I always seem to have with a tank.

 

[fishfanatic06]

Mesocosm, I have a few questions for you regarding carbon dosing.
I was wondering if distilled vinegar and white wine vinegar are the same thing? Do they both provide the same bacteria with a fuel source? Also what is your opinion on dosing mixed carbon sources (vinegar, sugar, vodka). I am underage for the vodka part so, I can only dose vinegar and sugar. Will I obtain good results dosing vinegar and sugar? If I mix the two together, do I have to mix them in a certain ratio so there is not an imbalance in the bacteria strains in my reef? ie. there is more vinegar than sugar so the bacteria that benefit from vinegar become the dominant bacteria in my reef environment. That is quite a mouthfull. Hopefully you can answer it. Thanks!

 

[Genetics]

Thanks for setting me straight there. I have always seen the online reefing community talking about skimming removing bacteria but they have failed to reference a publication. I will give this one and the Conway, if I can find it, a read tomorrow.

Patents are filed if someone sees a potential to make money from it. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with efficiency. Just meant someone realised it happens and wants to make sure if a decent application ever came out for this reason that they could collect on it.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12295029#post12295029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Thanks for setting me straight there. ...

Not a bit of it, my friend ... if we're not going to think outside the box every now and again, we all might as well setup BB Berlin systems, spend our time online arguing incessantly & mindlessly about deep sand beds, and start drinking heavily.

:lol:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12295029#post12295029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
... I have always seen the online reefing community talking about skimming removing bacteria but they have failed to reference a publication. ....

It's unfortunate that most cyber-reefkeepers don't recognize the emergent synergy that's taking place ... for the first time in history ... between marine researchers and marine aquarium practioners. If it's not documented, I take everything I read in reefkeeping cyberspaces with large doses of salt ... and the whole "ZEOvit thing" was no different. This whole CS "thing" is no different. But once I started looking at the arguably relevant research (... "arguably" because virtually NONE of the research utilizes what we would consider to be reef aquaria ... this remains a significant gap in terms of utility & applicability ...) I realized that there was a vast realm of bacteriology and environmental microbiology information that is typically never communicated to marine aquarists.

Go figure ... :rollface:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12295029#post12295029 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Patents are filed if someone sees a potential to make money from it. Doesn't mean it has anything to do with efficiency. ...

Agreed, but the brewer/fermentation stuff can be fascinating ... VERY cool culturing & distillation toys ... a history and knowledge base that extends back centuries ... and brewers can be just as twisted & obsessive about what they do as we are with our reefs.

Thank the Gods ... :lol:






JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12295898#post12295898 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm
Greetings All !


Not a bit of it, my friend ... if we're not going to think outside the box every now and again, we all might as well setup BB Berlin systems, spend our time online arguing incessantly & mindlessly about deep sand beds, and start drinking heavily.

:rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface: :rollface:

 

[miwoodar]

I'm trying to think outside the box...but you guys have been outpacing my meager brain. I'm lucky just to have it above water while trying to follow this thread!

 

[143gadgets]

Question:

If a tank already has zero nitrates, close to zero phosphates, and no algae problems what benefits would there be from dosing a carbon source?

 

[dvanacker]

^^Good question. I'm not sure this is an answer but like zeo users say is that you may think you have low nutrients but do you have ultra low nutrients. And what this may do is allow you to feed more which is essentially all that systems like zeo accomplish. Ultra low nutrients and then feeding with aminos, minerals and god knows what else.

 

[Zedar]

Being able to keep more fish and feed them healthy amounts of food is one i can think of off the top of my head.

 

[143gadgets]

I dosed awhile back and I noticed a film on the rocks and glass that I was unhappy about. I couldn't get rid of it. Would you all say that s normal with carbon dosing?

 

[SDguy]

I would say it's normal with carbon over-dosing.

 

[azgard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&posted=12298395#post12298395 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 143gadgets
I dosed awhile back and I noticed a film on the rocks and glass that I was unhappy about. I couldn't get rid of it. Would you all say that s normal with carbon dosing?

I have observed this also. In-fact a type of syrup like film on tank walls rock and substrate. I wonder if this film is coating the gravel substrate and sealing off the flow to lower layers of the substrate and creating anaerobic bacteria?

 

[fishfanatic06]

I am starting to dose vinegar on my tank because it is illegal for me to get vodka. How much ml should I dose per day on a system that altogether has about 40 gallons?
Thanks!

 

[Genetics]

Edit: Misread post.

 

[fishfanatic06]

I meant ml of vinegar. Sorry

 

[Genetics]

Start small. Try something like 0.1mL and work up from there. Stay at 0.1mL for 3-4 days and see if skimmer output increases. If it doesn't then increase to 0.2mL for another 3-4 days and see if there is any result. To find a level to stay with you should measure your NO3 and PO4 levels every few days. If they are decreasing then you just need to add that amount you were at without the need to increase.

 

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12301599#post12301599 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Start small. Try something like 0.1mL and work up from there. Stay at 0.1mL for 3-4 days and see if skimmer output increases. If it doesn't then increase to 0.2mL for another 3-4 days and see if there is any result. To find a level to stay with you should measure your NO3 and PO4 levels every few days. If they are decreasing then you just need to add that amount you were at without the need to increase.

I agree, .1ml for that size system is a great place to start. Keep your eye on white film, it seems more common with vinegar.