Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[OnlyCrimson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12411534#post12411534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jk5
I think some diatoms can be heterotrophycs, and could be rised by sugar...
In zeoland... it cuold be called overdosing...
mesocosm... are you here? je,je,je...

WHO ARE YOU?

My dosing is good, getting some diatoms, but im gonna hold steady. 1.5ml of the GBD vsv on an 80g system with probably 60g actual water. I started at 1ml for three days, but no drop in trates. However the water became very clear.

 

[Genetics]

Sorry, weeks been busy. I'll try to elaborate a bit more on my comment and see if anyone has to add to it. I still haven't gotten through all the papers listed in this thread and other threads linked through here.

I was stating sugar may feed diatoms, among other things. I've noticed that diatoms seem to be present with sugar addition in general but may be a result of a high silicate levels in the water. If the silicates disappear the change in organism growth from sugar may also change. So you would not see diatoms anymore but would get another organism to grow in its place.

Personal observation from sugar addition is that the skimmate comes off more of a milky yellow substance than the dark brown I get with vodka. Not that that's anything scientific but just a personal note.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

I also believe the diatoms could be fed by my addition of warner marine AA's. They were prevent before i started the vsv so i cut back on the dosage of AA's. Although it seems they are back, not in force.

 

[melev]

This stuff tastes so vile, I don't know if I want to pour it in my reef. Apparently bacteria, No3 and Po4 have little-to-no tastebuds.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Do they even have a tongue?

Taste best when frozen, by the way. And maybe a jalpeno swimming in it with a bottle of dry vermouth open in the general area.

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12422887#post12422887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral
Do they even have a tongue?

Taste best when frozen, by the way. And maybe a jalpeno swimming in it with a bottle of dry vermouth open in the general area.

Agreed, but replace the smirnoff with grey goose, kettle one or belvedere.

 

[Kolognekoral]

I wanted to read a bit more of this thread before commenting. More info than one really wants!

In any case, as I do use the zeo method and this involves carbon dosing and K+ depletion, I wanted to share my experience (once again ).

The Start2 supplement I use is a mutli-carbon source, which supports various strains of bacteria. IMO superior to simply trying vodka, (regarless of palatability), sugar, vinegar, etc. as it is not onesided and will prevent ODing, which may lead to a specific bacteria blooming and depleteing the water column of O2, thus crashing the system.

Now, one can try to find there own formula, that is not really the discussion. I found mine.

The K+ deficit found in bacterially driven systems and rarely seen as a problem in previous non-zeolith systems, is relatively easy to explain. Bacteria, as well as ALL other life forms, require K+ for cell function. It catalyses the ATP > ADP energy equation. I think most have understood this basic implication, but the question remains, where is the potassium dissappearing to after the cells die. Well, into the skimmer! With such a pushed bacterial system, the rate of use is much higher and, as skimming is the main export of these dead bacteria, K+ is removed in larger quantities. In a more traditional system, the bacteria population are not in such a rapid reproduction mode and thus the depletion is considerably less, although I am convinced that it does slowly occur in many systems.

Bacterial driven eco-systems were at the forefront of reef-keeping some years ago, but they were not well understood, although we thought we knew a lot. Further than DSBs was carbon dosing and that lead to many crashes. Currently, we are experiencing a silent (not always) refinement of the principles. The answer was there all the time, that spark, the secret...to life...itself! (let's do the Time Warp, again)

OK, off to the LFS to see if there are some new frags to be had.....

 

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12422937#post12422937 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
Agreed, but replace the smirnoff with grey goose, kettle one or belvedere.

....grey goose is just as bad as smirnoff if not worse. serve it in a plastic flask
I'll stick with my belvedere


Jamie,

Thanks for stopping in :thumbsup: Just a few questions...

Why then do you believe Prodibio users and heavy Carbon dosing users are not experiencing the same K issues as Zeovit?

And how do we know Start2 is a multi carbon source? Are you implying, that you cannot OD with Start2?

 

[Jk5]

The protocol asked by melev...

C must run about initial N.
If initial N (no3) are not so high doses must be minor.

The doses calpable make dangerous bacterial bloom is 1/3 teaspoon for 20 gallons, daily...
maxium secure doses 1/10 ts 20 gallons daily...
In only fish aqurium no problem runing this doses from first day...

Here (important), write undiserable posisible effects in corals aquarium and explain if it is caused by runnig very quickly, changing so fast nutrients levels or causing undiserable bacterial bloom?

protocol?????

Begin
day 1-7: 1/10 ts for 20 gallons every3 days?
day 7-14: 1/10 ts for 20 gallons every 2 days?
from day 15: 1/10 ts for 20 gallons daily?

Benefical effects would be reduction of high no3-po4 and run a bacterial system fighting against undiserable algae.

Any more????

 

[Kolognekoral]

I know about Start2 because I was told what it was. I'm a mod on the forum and need to know what I'm talking about, althoug anyone following the forum would find the info. Of course, you could OD on anything, but, if you follow the recommended dosage and keep your eyes open (one will notice a film on the glass, if saturated. This is not an OD, rather a warning sign that more is not required) , this is hardly likely.

As to other zeolith systems, they do have trouble with K+, but it is often not noted as such. FaunaMarin has since brought out a potassium test kit to support their program. I think single carbon source dosing doesn't support the intense populations of bacteria and we don't reach a real deficiency state, if there are occaisional water changes. Also, although this is totally anecdotal, different strains of bacteria may be resonsible for the depletion at different rates. The Zeo products, as well as the other lines, are designed as a system and therefore should not be mixed with each other. They each work with different groupings of bacteria and the supplements work best with these bacteria. Others will work, but not necessarily as desired or expected. For the record, I've played with them all and it was a great learning process. What finally brought me to stay with Zeovit is the constant work being done to push the envelope.

Something I have been trying to put together is an understanding of all the various parameters that are connected to zeolith-bacteria driven filtration systems. There is a synergy built-up in the aquarium, which can be quite delicate at first. We not only have various bacteria directly associated with the zeoliths, but other sub-cultures seem to develope, as well. I find my asymbiotic corals doing much better, but they are often a bit more sensitive to me experimenting around, than, say, the Acroporas. I have hypothesized that Montiporas tend to suffer under a K+ deficit due to their very high metabolisms, which is quickly limited. All of the faster-growing corals seem to be quickly effected by a low K+ level.

Minor organisms, such as sponges, have really taken off in my reef. Before, they were there, but never really an interesting feature. This additional biosphere onan almost cellular level seems to generally support the aquarium. We have been exploring this area for a few decades, but not most of us are seeing it take off in ULNS.

For those that know of the Redfield Ratios, it is clear that carbon is the top limiting factor for general metabolism. The basic reef ratio is 106C : 16N : 1P, which shows just how much more carbon is required to metabolize a single atom of phosphate.

We must, also, consider that nitrogen limiting will often occur as well, if we keep too few fish in an aquarium. What vodka dosing does not do is support phosphate assimilating bacteria, as it does denitrifiing bacteria. These will lead to a nitrate deficiency and thus a rise in the PO4 levels. (this is also a player in phosban oriented systems which have sufficient denitrifiing bacteria, but the PO4 just builds up and must be chemically adsorbed)

The equation looks simple, but we really lack the ability to measure these ratios in an aquarium. At this point in time we are using what test kits we have, plus our observation skills.

Many people moan about not knowing exactly what is in any particular supplement or salt, regardless of manufacturer. I must ask myself, what would we do with this knowledge? It may help us understand the system better, but it won't actually help us keep a better reef. Yes, I would like to know more about the chemistry, but it goes quickly over my head and I have studied biology. I can read an essay of contents on most supplements, but it doesn't tell me what is actually in there, just what the final analysis is. As reef aquarists, we really are on the cutting edge, which means many things are not yet clear, but we are always learning.

 

[jamesdawson]

Thanks Jamie,

Great explanation!


James

 

[Canarygirl]

Jamie,

For myself, I do experience OD symptoms when I try to use Start2 at the level prescribed for my water volume. I tried multiple times but could not get beyond .2ml twice daily of Start2 on my 140g net water volume. (My water volume should be able to support .4ml of Start2 twice daily.) After a few months I tried an experiment; in the evenings I use .2ml Start2 plus .2ml vodka. In the mornings, just Start2 (.2-.3ml). With this combination I do not experience the OD symptoms--slime with small bubbles on the rocks and substrate. Do you have a theory on why this works so much better for me than the full dose of Start2? My understanding from Bob is that Start2 does not contain ethanol, FWIW....

Thanks

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12424261#post12424261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kolognekoral
As to other zeolith systems, they do have trouble with K+, but it is often not noted as such. FaunaMarin has since brought out a potassium test kit to support their program. I think single carbon source dosing doesn't support the intense populations of bacteria and we don't reach a real deficiency state, if there are occaisional water changes. Also, although this is totally anecdotal, different strains of bacteria may be resonsible for the depletion at different rates.

What is the makeup of Zeolith? Can this product exchange potassium for ??? I'm going to have to seek out a zeovit forum and read up on this subject in more detail.

Is there any evidence for the zeovit method producing broader bacterial diversity?

 

[Zedar]

I can only speak for myself, but i have achieved low P04 using Glassbox designs v/s/v. vodka sugar vinegar.

I posted pics of my corals. They where washed out from too low a nutrient level.

Ive since dosed zeovit AA's , Iron, iodide and feed more and the corals have responded well.
I even dosed some Potassium nitrate to help the corals along. i think that may have been a little excessive, cause i now have a minor algae bloom.

Also my orange capricornis was almost white. It took two bottles of Potassium chloride to bring it back from the dead. So Ive been harvesting bacteria that use K+ just like a zeo system.

I'm not trying to knock Zeo. I think its a great way to control nutrients.

But the price was high so i found a cheaper method. But with the new price drop its now price competitive. I would recommend it.

 

[Big E]

This was good thread until it turned into a commercial for Zeovit.

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431071#post12431071 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
This was good thread until it turned into a commercial for Zeovit.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Zedar]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I guess that did sound pretty lame. I overemphasized because I wanted to stress that I'm not a zeovit basher, even though i dont use it.

I also dont think theres anything that special about the zeovit rocks. I think they just provide a large surface area for bacteria. And i think ive proven that.
If you skim this post you'll see what ive done to make a poor mans zeovit.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1348770

 

[Zoom]

After a week i notice the HA start to get lighter in color.
most of SPS start to loose there color so i'm going to stop the sugar dosing again and go back to basics i will restart my refuge and start to feed a little more .

 

[Kolognekoral]

Hey, Canarygirl, that is interesting! I wonder what causes that? Did you start your current tank with Zeo or was it a change over? I ask as I did a change over with a DSB and there were issues of slowness in stabilizing. I think if I had dosed vodka without a DSB, I would have had the same problems. I get the feeling that my tank was biased to certain denitrifying bacteria and this needed time to adjust.

Certainly, I did a bit of ODing certain products, part out of curiosity, part because I though I knew what I was doing! I never killed anything, so I don't see it as the same thing that happens with a tank crash from OD carbon sources. For me, that would be a total wipeout.

Genetics: Zeoliths are a group of minerals, 40 of which are found in nature, plus 100s of man-made version for special purposes. What makes them interesting in general is their crystaline structure. They contain holes on the molecular level and act as ion-exchangers. Each specific zeolith has certain ion-exchange preferences. Those used in marine tanks adsorb ammonia and ammonium, while those used for fresh water will only do this in fresh water. In marine environments they have a preference for calcium, which doesn't work for marine tanks, which is why the choice of a zeolith is critical. Most can funtion as multipe ion-exchangers, but they do show preferences to specific ions.

In addition to their microscopic holes, they also contain large holes which may harbour bacteria. Thus their success in aquariums. What I find superior to glass matrix filter materials is their ion-exchange properties. They are considerably more efficient at creating biological filters. They all work, under slightly different conditions to maximize them, as Zedar has shown. There are multiple methods to an ULNS.

Ed, sorry you think this is too biased. The idea is to exchange method and information. I think there is still a great deal to be discussed on carbon dosing. What the GlassBox Boys are doing is pretty bloody cool. (but, I must admit, I was laughing with you!:mixed: :mixed: :mixed: :rollface: )

 

[Canarygirl]

Hey, Canarygirl, that is interesting! I wonder what causes that? Did you start your current tank with Zeo or was it a change over? I ask as I did a change over with a DSB and there were issues of slowness in stabilizing. I think if I had dosed vodka without a DSB, I would have had the same problems. I get the feeling that my tank was biased to certain denitrifying bacteria and this needed time to adjust.

My tank is 13 months old and I've been using Zeovit for almost 7 months, the past month with the hybrid vodka/Start2 carbon source. When I set up my tank, I re-used some sugar sand and crushed coral from another reefer's tank and I don't know how old it was. Some of my rock also came from other tanks; a little of it was 8 yrs old.

I figured that my sandbed and rocks were leaching PO4 and that I needed to ride it out, but I wanted to speed up the process and couldn't ever get up to the full level of Start2 I was supposed to be able to use (per the Zeo guide). Then I read this thread and decided to do the experiment with vodka + Start2. I stopped having the OD symptoms so I'm on my way to getting rid of the stored PO4 in my system. My personal opinion is that there are some "nourishing" ingredients in the Start2 that are responsible for the OD symptoms, and vodka doesn't have these ingredients. I think that's why I can dose higher amounts now.