Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[Znut Reefer]

Following this thread. Sounds pretty interesting. I was wondering why some of you decided to use this method?

Were you having any algae issues? And has this helped? I ask about algae issues because I have a few patches of the Bryopsis that I'd like to get rid of if this vodka dosing will help with that.

TIA

 

[Big E]

I am very interested in this aspect. I am having pretty bad STN at the bases of many corals, from my tricolors, to a mille, to even a verrucosa monti chunk. Other bases, while not STNing, are definitely not growing. I suspect your theory, or my alk too high at 9.6 dKH (I always keep it here...but that idea that zeo users have to keep it much lower keeps creeping into my head). Any other thoughts/experiences?

In my experiences alk burn or high alk will cause burned tips & receding from the top.

When a coral recedes from the base & doesn't grow it's starving.
In an attempt to save itself it allows the base or bottom to die to save the rest of the coral, especially the branches that have the most chance to grow & capture food & light for survival.

If the tips are growing & the base is receding the coral still has a chance for a turnaorund. If it's receding & not growing it's in major survival mode & will likely die if conditions don't change.

 

[eckrynock]

znut,

Vodka dosing has seemed to help my algae problems. I started 3 weeks agao and am only at 2 ml. in my 110 gal. (total) system. If you are sure it's bryopsis, another method is to raise your magnesium levels to 1500ppm. I have done that as well and within days of upping my mag., all of my algae has turned white and is receding. I only suggest the magnesium because it seems to be a quick fix for Bryopsis, so if you're sure that's what you have, give it a try. I will probably continue dosing vodka in small amounts (I like my chaeto) and supplement my tank with bacteria and aminos. If you dose vodka, remember to start SLOWLY and follow the dosing regimen in this thread as it can be a huge shock to the system.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11140397#post11140397 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Big E
In my experiences alk burn or high alk will cause burned tips & receding from the top.

When a coral recedes from the base & doesn't grow it's starving.
In an attempt to save itself it allows the base or bottom to die to save the rest of the coral, especially the branches that have the most chance to grow & capture food & light for survival.

If the tips are growing & the base is receding the coral still has a chance for a turnaorund. If it's receding & not growing it's in major survival mode & will likely die if conditions don't change.

I like the theory. I've thought of it myself even. But I've never heard that. I've always heard the zooxanthallae are the first things to go, not actual tissue loss.

 

[143gadgets]

Any updates?

 

[jessezm]

Back to the briopsis question--Znut, I also found elavated magnesium levels to be a quick fix. Virtually 3 days and it was all gone. With your system, I'd use mag chloride (driveway heat) over mag sulfate (epsom salts) to raise it, or a mix of the two, as you will literally be dumping fistfulls in to get enough of a mag increase, and in doing so, will raise your sulfate levels as well...

As for the sugar/vodka question, I've been dosing sugar with the pappone method for about 5 or 6 weeks now. Problem is, until today, I've been adding sugar (about a teaspoon to 240g total) at night with the pappone, and maybe I need to do the opposite after reading some of the above posts (dosing during the day...)

I add reef plus aminos 1hr before lights out, then pappone after dark, with a little sugar added to the mix. I've never noticed a bacterial bloom, but I do have a significant amount of GHA on many of the more shaded rocks, and some light diatoms on the sandbed in a few places. Other than that, I've had no detectible levels of N (salifert) or P (Hach). I do run GFO in a reactor and have a refugium with chaeto on a reverse light cycle. Lighting on the tank is 8XT5s overdriven with 2X48" VHO actinic supplementation.

My corals have been on a real growth spirt (despite having to treat for redbugs), and the colors are really coming out. I have a blue stag of some kind that was sort of brownish blue and now it is brillant blue with aquamarine coralites--truly stunning!

My levels are as follows:
CA: 480ppm
Mag: 1400ppm
Alk: 12 dKh
N: 0 (salifert)
P: 0 (Hach)
pH: 8.16-8.32 (lows/highs over the past 4 weeks)
temp: 78.5-79.5 (daily swing)

I would like to start with Vodka as well, but I need to go buy some first...

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11164904#post11164904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 143gadgets
Any updates?

I personally have stopped dosing. Colors were getting better, but several colonies have really bad basal STN. Related to the dosing? No idea....but I need to get it under control. Also, even though I recently turned my ca reactor down, my alk went up (yes the kit is accurate ) which tells me either something caused alk to no longer be taken up by the various organisms in the tank, or somehow chemically the dosing produced more available alk in the water column?? No idea....

 

[Dawn II]

Is STN like RTN??

 

[jessezm]

uh-huh--just slower

 

[stony_corals]

I think the bacteria add more CO2 to the water via respiration now whether that reacts and add more alk, I have no idea...

 

[SDguy]

I posted in the chem forum thread to maybe get some of the chem experts take on the situation with the alk increase...

 

[SDguy]

Good news....with my alk lowered (below 9 dKH), recession seems to have stopped. Burnt tips are growing back. All anecdotal, I know. I only stopped dosing for 2 days. I"m at a constant 6.5 mL per day now. Colors are really startin gto show....

Burnt tips healing:

These corals were SOLID brown just days ago....

 

[kirstenk]

Good news....with my alk lowered (below 9 dKH), recession seems to have stopped.

Good news! Keeping ALK stable and closer to 8dKH is very important with Bac driven methods.

 

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11220578#post11220578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
Good news....with my alk lowered (below 9 dKH), recession seems to have stopped.

Good news! Keeping ALK stable and closer to 8dKH is very important with Bac driven methods.

My bad for not doing enough research as well as simply putting two and two together (ie zeo = bac method)...

 

[jessezm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11220578#post11220578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kirstenk
Good news....with my alk lowered (below 9 dKH), recession seems to have stopped.

Good news! Keeping ALK stable and closer to 8dKH is very important with Bac driven methods.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have a question related to the above statement--

I've been using the pappone method, which introduces samll amounts of sugar as a carbon source in the food mix. According to that method, you are supposed to keep elavated Alk, CA, and Mg levels. On top of that, I have actually been dosing extra sugar during the day.

So my alk levels are 12, CA 480, and Mg 1400 or therabouts (very easy to keep things here with a schuran ca reactor...). And so far, I haven't seen any bleaching or burn't tips (been going at it for a few months, with additional sugar the past 10 days or so).

So basically, I'm a bit confused as to what impact high alk would have in this situation, and why bacteria-based methods rely on low alk in general... Thanks!

 

[kirstenk]

hmmmm........well, I can't tell ya why lower ALK is more ideal with Bac systems but from my experience, my reading here and on the ZEO Forums, it has me convinced that it is the way to go.

My tank has been Bac driven for over 2 years.

There is always an exception to the rule and since you have only recently started dosing more carbon, I would watch your corals carefully over the next few weeks.

 

[SDguy]

Perhaps the methods are different. From what I gathered, dosing vodka is simply a way of growing lots of planktonic bacteria, which uses up C, N, P, and is then skimmed out.

Pappone uses sugar mixed with food. I haven't researched the method, but I'd assume the bacterial growth promoted by the sugar is somehow tied into the feeding of the corals, no?

 

[SDguy]

Also, if you try to wade through that thread mbbuna posted a link to, you'll see that even the brainy people didn't really come up with an accepted theory about high alk causing burning tips in bac driven systems.

 

[kirstenk]

Pappone method also uses a hormone which I am pretty sure is not available in the US. The use of this hormone may have some effect on the Pappone tanks which in turn allows for the ALK to be maintained at higher levels........???.....

 

[jessezm]

Oh, yes, I just starting looking at that and WOW, I'm still confused! Anyhow, the timing of my post is pretty funny, since my lights came on just now and I am noticing that the purple tips of my Valida (which is the highest coral in my tank) are lightening considerably along the top edges...