Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12385289#post12385289 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar

1. The bacteria are consuming K+ driving it down to a level below acceptable levels by the corals. In other words, non carbon based tanks are low in K+ (lower the NSW) but now so low that the corals are affected.

or

2. Carbon based systems have lower P04 and N03 levels.
In more traditional systems, slightly higher p04 and N03 levels counter the need for K+ levels to be at NSW.
In other words, the corals adapt in traditional systems by utilizing the available nutrients. In this case, P04 and N03. But once these levels become lowered, then the need for K+, Iron, Iodide and maybe others, increases?

1. Potassium, even though taken up readily from membrane transport proteins, would still be left behind when the bacteria undergo lysis. If whole bacteria are efficiently skimmed through a skimmer then you would expect to see a decrease over time. This issue shows levels of ions in aquarium versus NSW.

Skimmate Composition - Ions

Down towards the bottom I like the data showing 33.2 pounds of skimmate needs to be removed in order to remove potassium down to NSW levels. That's a lot of skimmate.

2. PO4 and NO3 are being utilized for organic compound synthesis. Potassium, Iron, and Iodine act as cofactors that potential interact with some of these organic compounds to perform functions. These ions though are not covalently bound and would go back into the water when the bacterium dies.

 

[Zedar]

Certainly contradictory info in his article to this discussion.

So where/ how does K+ buildup in our tanks as he suggests? If most salt mixes have been shown to be deficient in K+ how would an excess occur?

 

[miwoodar]

G, Z - I need to read that article. Thus far, I have only skimmed it. I didn't see a discussion on the husbandry methods in the study group though. Being that the article was written in 2002, I would be surprised if any of the tanks were being carbon dosed (who knows - the entire study group could have been receiving regular carbon dosing for all we know). I'm not saying the article has no merit, I'm just saying that I would not rule this out as a dead end. If our planktonic bacterias are indeed being skimmed out, then we could be especially prone to low K for that reason.

The article did mention that skimmate sludge is very high in bacteria.

 

[Zedar]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12386789#post12386789 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by miwoodar

The article did mention that skimmate sludge is very high in bacteria.

Which could explain the increase in skimmer production when carbon dosing.

 

[PSam]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12386695#post12386695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zedar
If most salt mixes have been shown to be deficient in K+ how would an excess occur?

Not to detract from vodka/sugar dosing info, but I keep seeing this - is there a study somewhere that most salts are lacking in K? Can you link me up? There was the one AWT PDF I saw... which...

 

[azgard]

I've done this for 3 months now and I'm giving up on this sugar method. Although I can see some benefit of nitrate reduction, there are many other ways to accomplish this.

The reaction of my anemones and green star polyps have convinced me something is not right.

Strangely this whole process is like a drug addiction. I can see the fish initial hyper metabolic reaction.

If anything at all, I may continue just a very small amount for the benefit of not having to clean the glass as often. I just don't know, I'll have to wait and see how you all do with the continued research .

 

[glassbox-design]

L, here's the inland results.. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1/view

Scroll down about half way and there is a graph for K

 

[PSam]

Sweet. Thanks.

Though my freshly mixed RC tests +350 mg/L. I also don't see any salts I'd consider using there. Wish they'd re-test with RC, Seachem, etc...

 

[glassbox-design]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12393955#post12393955 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PSam
Sweet. Thanks.

Though my freshly mixed RC tests +350 mg/L.

:lol: hey, i never said those #'s were accurate. Perhaps Randy or some of the chemistry guys can chime in on their testing methods? I remember there was plenty of fuss when those articles were published...

 

[MiddletonMark]

You're right - there was a bit of fuss when those articles were published [due to some significant issues with testing, sampling, etc].

Frankly, like most salt studies, that one got thrown out the window [IMO] within a month or two of publication :lmao:

I don't know if I'd trust any of those #'s, I recall a good bit of discussion of folks who have never go results anything like AA did off the same salt. After a few years of testing buckets - while I appreciate their work - I tend to trust my #'s more, and when they don't jive at all with the study's #'s [and many others also find the same thing] ... I let it go by.

 

[MiddletonMark]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12386069#post12386069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
1. Potassium, even though taken up readily from membrane transport proteins, would still be left behind when the bacteria undergo lysis. If whole bacteria are efficiently skimmed through a skimmer then you would expect to see a decrease over time. This issue shows levels of ions in aquarium versus NSW.

Skimmate Composition - Ions

Down towards the bottom I like the data showing 33.2 pounds of skimmate needs to be removed in order to remove potassium down to NSW levels. That's a lot of skimmate.

Great post, thank for the info.

33# of skimmate is a lot of skimmate!

 

[Zoom]

Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Back to low dose of sugar dosing

I start to dose sugar again i stop for few weeks to see the out come of my tank and the small patch of hair algae i had .
Well after i stop all type of algae start to grow again on the rocks in very short time .
I start to dose 1/4 TSP a day again and today is about seven days and the tank getting clear already .
I 'm going to stay with low dose of sugar every day for now on and this time longer than before to see if i can eliminate the algae completely.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12396021#post12396021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom
I start to dose sugar again i stop for few weeks to see the out come of my tank and the small patch of hair algae i had .
Well after i stop all type of algae start to grow again on the rocks in very short time .
I start to dose 1/4 TSP a day again and today is about seven days and the tank getting clear already .
I 'm going to stay with low dose of sugar every day for now on and this time longer than before to see if i can eliminate the algae completely.

Did you slowly reduce the does or just stop all together?

 

[Genetics]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12394581#post12394581 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MiddletonMark
Great post, thank for the info.

33# of skimmate is a lot of skimmate!

One problem I see consistently in aquarium tests is the lack of detail in experimental design.

Here's a few flaws in the study I would like to point out. First, there was no mention on potassium levels from the salt they were adding to the tank. So you don't know if the salt was in excess or if it builds up over time from feeding the tank. Actually, there is no posting on the setups of the four tanks that were used in the study, which sadly makes this study less useful. I would have liked to see equipment, how long the tank has been setup, and feeding/maintenance schedule. Second, there is no mention of what was grown in these four experimental tanks. I see some basic softies but really didn't address whether there may be a greater necessity for potassium in sps tanks. Third, the standard error bars on potassium are so large it would be difficult to draw an accurate conclusion on potassium export in skimmate. Along with this, the amount of sodium seen in the skimmate (wetter skimmate would have more sodium since you're taking out more saltwater than drier) is also incredibly variable.

 

[Zoom]

Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12398798#post12398798 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OnlyCrimson
Did you slowly reduce the does or just stop all together?

I just stop all together.

 

[OnlyCrimson]

Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12404253#post12404253 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom
I just stop all together.

I would guess this is the reason you had such a terrible algae bloom. No more carbon to keep the bacteria active and the nutrients built up.

 

[Zoom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12405862#post12405862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OnlyCrimson
I would guess this is the reason you had such a terrible algae bloom. No more carbon to keep the bacteria active and the nutrients built up.

I should have mention that i change my skimmer to a bigger twin pump Deltec AP902 and start using 1Lt of rowa in my deltec rowa reactor when i stop the sugar dosing .
I did all this to try to offset some of the nutrients built up from not using the sugar any longer , even so i only use 1/4 TSP on a 250 gallon tank.
I took most of the precautions, but i think the algae come from going up on my lighting period from 6 hour to 10hr , even so i took about three weeks to jack the period up, that i think had mostly something to do with my algae growth.
One more thing i notice when i was dosing sugar is that i had more diatoms on the bottom of my tank that ever.
Maybe some silicates in the sugar ?.

 

[Genetics]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12406146#post12406146 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zoom

One more thing i notice when i was dosing sugar is that i had more diatoms on the bottom of my tank that ever.
Maybe some silicates in the sugar ?.

Maybe diatoms can feed directly off of sugar?

 

[Zoom]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Back to low dose of sugar dosing

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12407835#post12407835 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Genetics
Maybe diatoms can feed directly off of sugar?

I don't know maybe.
I need to do some silicate test next to see if the tank water has elevated silicates..

 

[Jk5]

I think some diatoms can be heterotrophycs, and could be rised by sugar...
In zeoland... it cuold be called overdosing...
mesocosm... are you here? je,je,je...