Lets Talk Stability - Are these numbers stable enough for SPS?

[jimrawr]

So I've been really trying to work on tank stability in the last month. I have some coral that aren't exactly happy, and other that seem to be doing ok. Nothing is THRIVING. I am trying to pin point my issues. Take a look at the following graphs and let me know what you think. Is this stable enough for SPS, or is this NOT stable enough for sps? I always hear people talking about stability, but not so much on what is defined as stable? How much movement in the number is acceptable?

I would love to hear some thoughts from experienced SPS keepers on if this is stable or not. I understand this is only a one month period, and SPS need stability over long terms. Just trying to figure out is this stable, or is this un-stable..

Some Info on the tank:
75g tank with a 40g sump
ATI 8x54w lighting with bulbs on max 60% during the day (more and corals bleach).
SG :1.025 using a Tunze Osmolator to keep stable
2 Tunze6095's plus decent flow from return pump.
AquaMaxx Cone-2 Skimmer
Santa Monica UAS
Bubble Magus Dosing Pump for ALK/CA

Now onto the parameters:

Alkalinity - from 9.5 I slowly lowered over the month to 8.3 and its been steady there now for a week. Should be able to keep it there without swinging much now.

Calcium - Low of 390 to a high of 425. Pretty steady throughout the month otherwise I think..?

Mag - Stayed in the mid 1400's for the last 30 days

Nitrates - Started a bit high, reduced feeding to get it down to 10 PPM

Phosphates - .05 to .00 using a Hanna checker.

Temp & PH - Not much swings here.

 

[Jeremy B.]

Are you running any chemical filtration on this system?

 

[SaltyWalter]

They are more stablen than mine are half the time and I have great looks sps and broth lol there's gotta be something else going on.

I might look into the temperature. 2 degree swings daily is a lot.

 

[jimrawr]

I do run Carbon but not all the time. Thats it for Chemical filtration. As far as temperatures, I have a fan connected to my apex that I could adjust to come on sooner, but I dont think a two degree swing is a lot..? I imagine most halide users have more than that but I could likely keep it within half a degree on a daily basis with a small adjustment

 

[Jeremy B.]

Are the corals very light and "pekid" (is that a word?), or deep and rich towards brown? My guess from what you're describing is the more light and faint look, and not thriving. If so, my suggestion would be to take the carbon offline completely, and focus on getting a little heavier nutrients in the tank (I know this won't help with your NO3). Generally for a lack of organics and that look with sps a lower alk seems to work best, as well as dosing of amino acids (I prefer the TLF AcroPower).

 

[jimrawr]

Well, the acros that I have seem to be doing OK, but not showing much if any growth. The colors look just fine, but no growth to the point of not even encrusting on the rock after a month. I am thinking maybe my flame angel picking at them could be hindering their growth as I get no polyp extension. Then I have a few montis that are doing ok, and a few that are dying. I have a plate coral which looks very pale and hungry, but other LPS (torch, rics, duncan) that look totally healthy.

So its kind of a weird situation where not everything is displaying the same signs so that I can say that they need more nutrients in the water, etc. Thats what I am thinking it may be connected to the stability of the water parameters.

I wasnt running carbon until I almost lost a monti (about 10 days ago or so). Just started running carbon since then, and the plate corals seem to have lost color in this time frame. The monti which was dying is coming back to life in the meantime.

Jeremy, what do you think about the stability? Based on the graphs provided above, can we eliminate stability being a culprit?

 

[Jeremy B.]

I think your stability is fine, although the consistency could get just a little better. Having said that, I don't think the very minor swings in calcium you've had would be enough to create much of an issue, if any at all. Personally, I target 9.5 / 430 / 1350, with no carbon or GFO until colors become too deep / rich, almost to showing some brown.

You should be able to blast your sps with your T5's at 100% with no bleaching. If you're bleaching at 100% intensity with 8 x54 on that tank then it almost sounds to me like a lack of nutrient. Generally speaking = more nutrient / more light the corals can handle, less nutrient / less light the corals can handle. Of course there are many other factors that can go into this, but from my experiences over the years the more dirty the water is the light the SPS can take, and vice versa.

Are you doing any ramp up and ramp down with your lights? If so, what are you doing specifically?

 

[jimrawr]

Yeah that might be the case. Dont have much algae growing in the system, cant even get a santa monica scrubber to grow algae so it SEEMS like its a low nutrient system, but then I have pretty high nitrates... So not sure whats going on there. Heres my light schedule (light is about 8 inches off the tank)

Channel 1 - Blue+ Actinic
10am ON
12pm 40%
2pm-4pm 90%
10pm - 80%
10:30pm - 10%
11pm - OFF

Channel 2 - Four Blue+, 1 Coral+, 1 Purple Plus
11am ON
12pm - 5pm: 50%
6pm OFF

It does not seem to me that anything is lacking light with these settings but I could be wrong. I know when it was ramping higher (channel two) my scoly on the sandbed was becoming transparent, and my setosa was VERY light pink. Colors corrected when I adjusted the light down.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

 

[markalot]

So you are running T5's at less than 100%? My impression was the dimming was good for effects but you should really run them at 100% most of the time and adjust the height if PAR is too high. Am I wrong?

 

[Peter Eichler]

They are more stablen than mine are half the time and I have great looks sps and broth lol there's gotta be something else going on.

I might look into the temperature. 2 degree swings daily is a lot.

Disagree here, a 2 degree daily swing isn't anything that will cause any issues and I don't see it as anything worth making an effort to "fix".

 

[rovster]

Pictures of your corals will help. Even though your nitrates have been stable recently at an acceptable level, at one point they were way too high (IMHO). I've found that corals that have been affected by any kind of spike whether a mineral or nutrient can take some time to recover, sometimes months. I think from a stability standpoint you are good now. I think keeping it there for another month or 2 should help in figuring out the problem.

 

[Jeremy B.]

Yeah that might be the case. Dont have much algae growing in the system, cant even get a santa monica scrubber to grow algae so it SEEMS like its a low nutrient system, but then I have pretty high nitrates... So not sure whats going on there. Heres my light schedule (light is about 8 inches off the tank)

Channel 1 - Blue+ Actinic
10am ON
12pm 40%
2pm-4pm 90%
10pm - 80%
10:30pm - 10%
11pm - OFF

Channel 2 - Four Blue+, 1 Coral+, 1 Purple Plus
11am ON
12pm - 5pm: 50%
6pm OFF

It does not seem to me that anything is lacking light with these settings but I could be wrong. I know when it was ramping higher (channel two) my scoly on the sandbed was becoming transparent, and my setosa was VERY light pink. Colors corrected when I adjusted the light down.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

I might some consider an adjustment to the lighting schedule as well. I'd try to keep the intensity, no matter where you run it at, more consistent throughout the day. I would try and do your morning ramp up at most an hour, then have a good 5-6hr constant of your max intense lights with everything on, and then a half hour to hour ramp down at the end of the day. Constantly doing this gradual change throughout the day - be it LED's or dimmable T5's, doesn't ever let the corals get used to one type of lighting spectrum, as it's constantly changing on them.

 

[lynchmob3000]

+1 on turning carbon off. Your trace elements and iodide might be getting depleted by the carbon if your running it all the time. I would also rule out bugs, redbugs will create problems like slow growth, maybe some stn here and there and eventually starve them out.

I run a 8x54 sun power over my 60 gallon coral flat and I can't dim it. Just sayin

 

[Peter Eichler]

+1 on turning carbon off. Your trace elements and iodide might be getting depleted by the carbon if your running it all the time. I would also rule out bugs, redbugs will create problems like slow growth, maybe some stn here and there and eventually starve them out.

I run a 8x54 sun power over my 60 gallon coral flat and I can't dim it. Just sayin

Despite people bringing this up fairly regularly, I haven't seen much to support GAC depleting trace elements to any significant level. That said, I do only like to use GAC as a water polisher every month or two for a couple days at a time. This is mainly because I struggle to keep nutrients up as it is and I've seen negative reactions from SPS when running GAC as a result of that.

 

[ajcanale]

Despite people bringing this up fairly regularly, I haven't seen much to support GAC depleting trace elements to any significant level. That said, I do only like to use GAC as a water polisher every month or two for a couple days at a time. This is mainly because I struggle to keep nutrients up as it is and I've seen negative reactions from SPS when running GAC as a result of that.

+1 on effect on trace elements, though I have them supplemented through CA reactor media.

Also, in regards to original graph comparisons... I think stability in terms of keeping SPS is more in regards to short term, not over the course of months. More like stability throughout the hours of a day.

 

[radobahn]

I know you said your salinity is at 1.025.. unless I missed it somewhere what are you using to check it with? Refractometer? If so when was the last time you calibrated it, and with what?

Only reason I ask is because not long ago I had a similar problem. Corals weren't thriving or growing at all and colors were pale. Water changes were done at least every two weeks, N03 and P04 were both low, PH/Temp monitored via Apex and hardly moved at all, and a Tunze Osmolater and Bubble magus doser helped keep things stable.

I was calibrating with RO/DI and my refractometer was off by .004.
Once I used calibration solution and raised salinity all corals made huge improvements within a few days and everything is still doing very well.

Just a guess.. hope this helps

 

[jimrawr]

Hey guys here are some pictures I just took. I will try to describe each image and kind of how I feel the coral is doing.. You can see some stuff is OK and others not so hot.

Tyree Undata. Got this in Feb and it was only on the plug. Its growing, and the color actually looks better in real life than it does in this image. I think this piece is doing just fine.

This plate coral looked VERY happy up until about a week ago. Right around the same time that I put 1 cup of carbon in a reactor. Now its lost its color and the polyps(?) arent extending

Got this Favia at reefapolooza about a month ago and it seems to be doing just fine.

This setosa started to die when I went on a 2 week vacation so ignore the dead parts for this conversation as its been like that for awhile. Its recovering now, but growing next to nothing over the last 4 months

Have had this staghorn for about 3 months. Colors are ok (blue base with greenish tips) but it hasnt even encrusted a tiny bit yet. After 1 month it should have by now I feel like...

Also had this acro for 3 months (same time as staghorn) and also has not encrusted. In fact it started to STN a few weeks ago at the base but that has stopped. Color looks ok but tip doesnt look so great...

Got this monti in February.. was doing OK then all of a sudden started to die. The areas that look like its dying is actually coming back to life (it was mostly bone white). So it seems to be recovering, I think what helped it recover was running carbon.

 

[jimrawr]

So you are running T5's at less than 100%? My impression was the dimming was good for effects but you should really run them at 100% most of the time and adjust the height if PAR is too high. Am I wrong?

Not sure. I know when I ran mine at 100% things were bleaching

Pictures of your corals will help. Even though your nitrates have been stable recently at an acceptable level, at one point they were way too high (IMHO). I've found that corals that have been affected by any kind of spike whether a mineral or nutrient can take some time to recover, sometimes months. I think from a stability standpoint you are good now. I think keeping it there for another month or 2 should help in figuring out the problem.

Pics added. I hope you are right!

I might some consider an adjustment to the lighting schedule as well. I'd try to keep the intensity, no matter where you run it at, more consistent throughout the day. I would try and do your morning ramp up at most an hour, then have a good 5-6hr constant of your max intense lights with everything on, and then a half hour to hour ramp down at the end of the day. Constantly doing this gradual change throughout the day - be it LED's or dimmable T5's, doesn't ever let the corals get used to one type of lighting spectrum, as it's constantly changing on them.

Yeah this makes sense. I will change the schedule to go up to 60% on Channel 2, and also only ramp up and down for one hour.

+1 on turning carbon off. Your trace elements and iodide might be getting depleted by the carbon if your running it all the time. I would also rule out bugs, redbugs will create problems like slow growth, maybe some stn here and there and eventually starve them out.

I run a 8x54 sun power over my 60 gallon coral flat and I can't dim it. Just sayin

Yep, I took the carbon offline today. I dont think redbugs are the issue. I've had them before in another tank and know how to spot 'em.

I know you said your salinity is at 1.025.. unless I missed it somewhere what are you using to check it with? Refractometer? If so when was the last time you calibrated it, and with what?

I used calibration fluid, and tested it today as well. It was calibrated properly. Also just to note, it was pretty spot on when calibrating tap water. I couldnt notice a difference.

 

[mcfa2403]

I noticed on your graph that you had a pretty high nitrate spike only a month ago (I run my nutrient levels high but anything above 20ppm hits sps hard in my tank, especially montis) you might consider that while your tank has been stable for a month now that recovering corals expend energy on recovery at the expense of growth. In another month if corals that look healthy now haven't grown then I would be more concerned.

As for the algae scrubber not growing, you do have high nitrates but no phosphates to speak of and this imbalance would likely affect algae growth. This is just my opinion and I don't really claim to understand the redfield ratio. Also, there are many who believe that elevated magnesium levels interfere with algae growth.

Personally I would try to feed zooplankton (I like reef nutrition roti feast) along with an amino acid supplement (I like acropower) of some sort more heavily and add some sort of denitrification to offset the increase in feeding even if its just more frequent water changes

 

[hurley009]

Just a question of curiosity... what are you using to get the graph readings? Do you have something that measures all that for you and posts it for you and shows you trends??