Lets talk UG filters

[wildman926]

Do you believe that it is an equipment issue or husbandry one?

I see what you are insinuating, and it is not a "husbandry" issue. Reverse flow powerheads have filters, and run app. 150gph. Even with flow and siphoning gravel, you will still get detritus build up over time.

In order to remove the detritus from under the plates, you would have to break down your tank, as seen in the pics of this thread. Why, in a sw setup, would you want to break your tank down just to clean out detritus? Why stress out the inhabitants of the tank by doing so? Why induce the nitrates from the build up of detritus? Why not just do a small, 1" or less sand bed and have a wet/dry or fuge? That is why the wet/dry and fuge came out, so you wont have to do all of the above questions I just posted.

 

[Paul B]

I think southdown is too fine for this application.
I use an old powerhead that pushes about 400 gph into a manifold where it splits to 3 different tubes going under the gravel.
My gravel is about 2" deep.
You can see my gravel here. That fish is about 2" long.
If you look close you can see old sea urchin spines, pieces of shell and black bits of asphalt

 

[Paul B]

That rock suport on the above picture is under here behind the large bottle. It was not built to be seen directly but to raise the reef structure

 

[stanlalee]

A)I have had tanks since at least the 80's and saltwater tanks since the early 90's
B) From 94' to 05' I had several saltwater tanks with under gravel filters.

C) ) 05' I moved into a new home and brought over my aquarium. I saw by then hardly anyone starting or with newer saltwater and reef tanks used them and while putting the set up back together a great epiphany came to me. It went "I dont need this sh*t". UGF were popular because in 1995 when you started a tank LFS help told you you had to have one and back then you got what they told you was needed, you didn't get on reef central first. this is obviously a whole different world in regards to information and sales.

1.Underground filters dont work with fine sand which most saltwater tanks have now because it goes right thru it (certainly wont do much for bare bottom which I'm running now). It works with crushed coral which again was what pet stores told you was REQUIRED for saltwater tanks all thru the 90's.

2. UGF need to be taken out periodically due to detritus build up no matter what you do to prevent it. Otherwise sooner or later there will be detritus build up resulting in poor flow which then makes it less and less effective. The this is downright unreasonable for maintenance as far as most are concerned (and nobody ever did).

3. Surface area with good water flow...rocks in the sump and tank do this, why do I want that contraption still?

 

[Paul B]

why do I want that contraption still?

If you don't want it, don't put one in. No one is telling you to install one.
As for removing it occasionally, I did remove the plates to check out what was under them. That was after about 20 years of continous operation. There was detritus under there to be sure but not that great amount that it could not go another 5 or 6 years.
That was the only time I saw under them. Even this last cleaning, I did not lift the plates, there is no need but in 2031, I may have to do it again.
This maintenance is killing me. :uhoh2:

 

[dzfish17]

I find this thread interesting. Im an old-school FW guy going back to the 80s and I dont see a problem with whatever system people want to use as long as it works. I do some things that some people think are wrong (like not using a sump) but if it works I dont have a problem with it. Paul, I dont drink much anymore but if I did I think we would definitely have some fun discussing all the things related to this hobby. Keep stirring the pot.

 

[Paul B]

Hey Dave, I'll buy.
(I don't have a sump either, thats a new invention)

 

[KafudaFish]

I see what you are insinuating, and it is not a "husbandry" issue. Reverse flow powerheads have filters, and run app. 150gph. Even with flow and siphoning gravel, you will still get detritus build up over time.

In order to remove the detritus from under the plates, you would have to break down your tank, as seen in the pics of this thread. Why, in a sw setup, would you want to break your tank down just to clean out detritus? Why stress out the inhabitants of the tank by doing so? Why induce the nitrates from the build up of detritus? Why not just do a small, 1" or less sand bed and have a wet/dry or fuge? That is why the wet/dry and fuge came out, so you wont have to do all of the above questions I just posted.

I wasn't insinuating anything. I was asking why you thought this would not work and suggested the two most likely reasons behind it. Your answer was equipment.

I ran a UGF with an eheim canister in one of the lift tubes for more than 10 years. My stand was open on the bottom and I could see how much detritus was building up. When the bottom got covered I simply moved some gravel, opened a cap and did a water change to remove 95% of it.


I guess my next question and this is for anyone but why do FW systems have the build up but SW systems do not?

Detritivores? Other ideas?

 

[wildman926]

I wasn't insinuating anything. I was asking why you thought this would not work and suggested the two most likely reasons behind it. Your answer was equipment.

I ran a UGF with an eheim canister in one of the lift tubes for more than 10 years. My stand was open on the bottom and I could see how much detritus was building up. When the bottom got covered I simply moved some gravel, opened a cap and did a water change to remove 95% of it.


I guess my next question and this is for anyone but why do FW systems have the build up but SW systems do not?

Detritivores? Other ideas?

Thanks for the clarification. :thumbsup::beer:

I bet with a heavily stocked FOWLR you would see it just the same. Corals will not create as much detritus as fish will.

To the OP - Not trying to rain on your parade, it just doesnt make good sense to have an ugf in a sw setup. I mean, some run a bare bottom, just to keep detritus out of the dt. :wavehand::beer:

 

[KafudaFish]

No problem. Glad you understood my question and take care.

 

[tgunn]

Hey Paul,

Do you find that the reverse under gravel filter helps to keep the gravel cleaner? I can understand the need to stir/clean it periodically on top of that of course.

What are your thoughts of using a system something like this with a coarse sand rather than gravel? I've always liked the look of a substrate and would like to use Caribsea Reefloor special sand (http://www.caribsea.com/pages/buy_it/dryaragonite/buy_specialreefsand.html). It has 1-2mm grains on average. I'd likely be keeping maybe 2" depth throughout.

My reasons are twofold:
- I like the look of sand and want to keep cucumbers and other burrowing creatiures
- I don't want a fine sand that will blow around a lot

My thought was to build acrylic UGF-like plates and wrap them in filter cloth of some sort so the sand can't get in. My thought was the upflow would help keep detritus suspended where my skimmer can pull it out better.

Thanks!
Tyler

 

[Paul B]

I don't know if a RUGF would keep the gravel cleaner, probably not. The finer the gravel or sand, the sooner it will need maintenance. I started the tank with driveway gravel but that was much too course, each grain was like a half an inch.
I don't know what Caribsea reeffloor looks like but it sounds fine. I think if youwant to use that, just use that with no RUGF. It took me many years to engineer a RUGF that would run almost forever with the least amount of maintenance and I found that slow flow and gravel about as large as rice works the best.

You can see my gravel here.

And here

And under the grass shrimp

 

[tgunn]

I don't know if a RUGF would keep the gravel cleaner, probably not. The finer the gravel or sand, the sooner it will need maintenance. I started the tank with driveway gravel but that was much too course, each grain was like a half an inch.
I don't know what Caribsea reeffloor looks like but it sounds fine. I think if youwant to use that, just use that with no RUGF. It took me many years to engineer a RUGF that would run almost forever with the least amount of maintenance and I found that slow flow and gravel about as large as rice works the best.

I guess nothing will replace manual maintenance of the sand bed. I suppose I could always prototype something like this in a smaller tank and see if I can get the detritus cleaning capability I'm hoping for.

I haven't seen the caribsea reefloor sand but it sounds smaller than rice from what I've read. I guess I shouldn't try and re-invent this method in my own strange manner.

Thanks!
Tyler

 

[andycook]

Does it make any difference to UGF-ing (for FW or SW) if the UGF system uses tubing with holes instead of the plates?

 

[moondoggy4]

I used to run a 60 gallon tank back in the 80's with a UGF and two Eheim canisters and my stand was also open on the bottom PS I still have the stand. I had a huge bio load and I did not have any problems with nitrates, I did not have any live rock just dead corals for decorations my tank was very aggressive triggers, ells, puffers and lion fish and I feed gold fish and on the docile side I had french angles imperator angles and a Moorish Idol. I did vacuum out the sand a lot.

 

[Gold3nku5h]

im glad this thread is still pretty recent, i had the same question as andy cook.
i am building a paludarium, from a 45 gallon tank with half land and half freshwater.
The water feature will be shaped like an L with a 24"x8"x8" long side and 8"x8"x8" short side making the total volume about 8.8 gallons.
I have a 1-1/2 hole drilled and am thinking about an under-gravel filter, or just having coarse enough gravel to let everything be taken care of by the sump.
Do you guys have any ideas what might work best?
I was thinking possibly a bulkhead with a strainer, an under-gravel filter that drains through to the sump tank to be filtered more, or a basically DIY under-gravel filter that acts pretty much just like a mechanical filter to be pre-filtered before the sump.