daveandcole
In Memoriam
I wonder if these guys have voltage gated sodium channels.
Apparently they dont have gaba receptors.
Apparently they dont have gaba receptors.
Life cycle of the montipora eating nudi
- Thread starter BlueCorn
- Start date
Here is the abstract from the paper I was talking about. If you want to see the whole thing, I would have to fax it to you. The abstract pretty much sums up the whole thing.
Here is the publication: Gochfeld, D.J. and G.S. Aeby, 1997. Control of
populations of the
coral-feeding nudibranch Phestilla sibogae by fish and crustacean
predators.. Mar. Biol. 130(1):63-69.
Abstract The aeolid nudibranch Phestilla sibogae (Bergh) is a specialist
predator on corals of the genus Porites. Predation by this gregarious
nudibranch causes extensive damage, ultimately mortal, to colonies of
Porites compressa (Dana) kept in laboratory tanks at the Hawaii Institute
of Marine Biology. In contrast, individuals of Phestilla sibogae are seldom
found on Hawaiian reefs, even in areas of high coral cover by Porites spp.,
and evidence of predation by Phestilla sibogae, such as feeding scars on
corals, is rarely encountered. We tested the hypothesis that predation by
coral reef fishes and crustaceans on P. sibogae is an important factor
controlling populations of this nudibranch under natural reef conditions.
Survival of nudibranchs was determined in the presence and absence of two
species of reef fishes, a carnivorous wrasse, Thalassoma duperrey (Quoy and
Gaimard), and an omnivorous butterflyfish, Chaetodon auriga (Forsskål).
Both species significantly reduced survival of P. sibogae. T. duperrey was
a more efficient predator on large (1.5 to 3.0 cm length) than on small
(0.7 to 1.4 cm length) nudibranchs, while C. auriga fed equally effectively
on both size classes. These differences may be related to foraging behavior
of the fish. Four species of crustaceans were found in abundance within
colonies of Porites compressa, and fed readily on small nudibranchs. The
largest and most abundant of these species, the xanthid crab Phymodius
monticulosus, also consumed large nudibranchs. This combination of
predation by fishes outside the coral colony and by crustaceans inside the
coral colony may control populations of Phestilla sibogae. At low
population densities, P. sibogae does not inflict excessive damage on its
coral prey. In the absence of predators, P. sibogae populations have the
potential to explode, resulting in extensive damage and mortality of coral
colonies.
Here is the publication: Gochfeld, D.J. and G.S. Aeby, 1997. Control of
populations of the
coral-feeding nudibranch Phestilla sibogae by fish and crustacean
predators.. Mar. Biol. 130(1):63-69.
Abstract The aeolid nudibranch Phestilla sibogae (Bergh) is a specialist
predator on corals of the genus Porites. Predation by this gregarious
nudibranch causes extensive damage, ultimately mortal, to colonies of
Porites compressa (Dana) kept in laboratory tanks at the Hawaii Institute
of Marine Biology. In contrast, individuals of Phestilla sibogae are seldom
found on Hawaiian reefs, even in areas of high coral cover by Porites spp.,
and evidence of predation by Phestilla sibogae, such as feeding scars on
corals, is rarely encountered. We tested the hypothesis that predation by
coral reef fishes and crustaceans on P. sibogae is an important factor
controlling populations of this nudibranch under natural reef conditions.
Survival of nudibranchs was determined in the presence and absence of two
species of reef fishes, a carnivorous wrasse, Thalassoma duperrey (Quoy and
Gaimard), and an omnivorous butterflyfish, Chaetodon auriga (Forsskål).
Both species significantly reduced survival of P. sibogae. T. duperrey was
a more efficient predator on large (1.5 to 3.0 cm length) than on small
(0.7 to 1.4 cm length) nudibranchs, while C. auriga fed equally effectively
on both size classes. These differences may be related to foraging behavior
of the fish. Four species of crustaceans were found in abundance within
colonies of Porites compressa, and fed readily on small nudibranchs. The
largest and most abundant of these species, the xanthid crab Phymodius
monticulosus, also consumed large nudibranchs. This combination of
predation by fishes outside the coral colony and by crustaceans inside the
coral colony may control populations of Phestilla sibogae. At low
population densities, P. sibogae does not inflict excessive damage on its
coral prey. In the absence of predators, P. sibogae populations have the
potential to explode, resulting in extensive damage and mortality of coral
colonies.
I have some experience with nudibranch's eating my zoo's, but not montipora, so not sure if this will help.
I'm dealing with a nudibranch infestation on my zoo's. I found another thread here that said to fresh water dip the zoos for about 5 minutes and then shake moderately (and dip up and down) for about 1 - 1.5 minutes. Tons of nudibranch's fall of the zoo. I've so far done this twice, as well as picked off every nudibranch that I saw. I haven't seen any more, but I'm going to continue this process every 2 days for about another 1 - 2 weeks. My zoo's look fine and are all open again.
I'm dealing with a nudibranch infestation on my zoo's. I found another thread here that said to fresh water dip the zoos for about 5 minutes and then shake moderately (and dip up and down) for about 1 - 1.5 minutes. Tons of nudibranch's fall of the zoo. I've so far done this twice, as well as picked off every nudibranch that I saw. I haven't seen any more, but I'm going to continue this process every 2 days for about another 1 - 2 weeks. My zoo's look fine and are all open again.
Montipora eating nudi elimination
Montipora eating nudi elimination
step 1 remove all monti's from your display tank to dip them in the following solutions
dip #1 -
.75 ml copper sulphate/liter of saltwater (tank water) - 10 minute dip
dip #2-
10 drops lugols solution per liter of saltwater (tank water) - 10 minute dip - shake and rinse dead and injured nudi's from all areas of coral following dip. Inspect and remove eggs from undersides of corals.
dip #3
saltwater - 10 minute dip - to remove traces of previous dips
following these dips the monti's should be placed in a quaranteen tank until the nudi's have been eliminated from the display tank.
This dip sequence should be done every other day for about 2 weeks, and you should be rid of the nudi's on your monti's
During the dipping process, all saltwater should be removed from the QT tank and the QT should be freshwater rinsed for at least 20 minutes. This will kill any lingering nudi's in the QT tank that may re-infect your corals (the little scumbags like to run around the tank on the rocks and such). Until I started this step, I would kill the nudi's and they would come back within a few days.
As far as the display tank goes, I'm not sure how long it takes for them to die without their host, It has been 4 weeks since they had any food, a week since I killed the last one.
Mine came in from a LFS that knew they had a problem, but kept on selling stock from the tank. Nice, I spent my last dollar there when I learned they knew they had 'em and didn't warn customers or QT the tanks.
All corals, frags, live rock, inverts and fish are now quarenteened prior to entry into my display.
Montipora eating nudi elimination
step 1 remove all monti's from your display tank to dip them in the following solutions
dip #1 -
.75 ml copper sulphate/liter of saltwater (tank water) - 10 minute dip
dip #2-
10 drops lugols solution per liter of saltwater (tank water) - 10 minute dip - shake and rinse dead and injured nudi's from all areas of coral following dip. Inspect and remove eggs from undersides of corals.
dip #3
saltwater - 10 minute dip - to remove traces of previous dips
following these dips the monti's should be placed in a quaranteen tank until the nudi's have been eliminated from the display tank.
This dip sequence should be done every other day for about 2 weeks, and you should be rid of the nudi's on your monti's
During the dipping process, all saltwater should be removed from the QT tank and the QT should be freshwater rinsed for at least 20 minutes. This will kill any lingering nudi's in the QT tank that may re-infect your corals (the little scumbags like to run around the tank on the rocks and such). Until I started this step, I would kill the nudi's and they would come back within a few days.
As far as the display tank goes, I'm not sure how long it takes for them to die without their host, It has been 4 weeks since they had any food, a week since I killed the last one.
Mine came in from a LFS that knew they had a problem, but kept on selling stock from the tank. Nice, I spent my last dollar there when I learned they knew they had 'em and didn't warn customers or QT the tanks.
All corals, frags, live rock, inverts and fish are now quarenteened prior to entry into my display.
HOC
Premium Member
I just tried that last method with no success. Even at double the amount. I first tried coppersafe for ten min, then 10 drops lugols per liter for ten min, then 20 drops lugols for five min, then diluted that solution with fresh water by 50% for 5 min. I watched the nudi's become more irritated with each addition. They finally died with the freshwater dillution. We'll see if the coral makes it. It was an encrusting monty. Those things can move faster than I thought.
Don't use Coppersafe
Don't use Coppersafe
Coppersafe is a chelated copper solution, it is not copper sulphate. I don't believe coppersafe is as toxic to inverts (short term) as copper sulphate. This may lead to having to dose at higher levels to kill the nudi's.
I also recall from my fish only days that Coppersafe is a much more dilute solution than copper sulphate. I have used both in the past for fish illnesses and coppersafe was generally added in teaspoon measures, while copper sulphate was added by the drop. I have not used any coppersafe in many years (15 plus) so this is all from my feable memory.
I would guess that the use of the wrong copper solution is why the Nudi's didn't start showing signs of stress right away.
Copper sulphate is a dark blue-green color and is found in many Ich/Oodinium treatments. Copper sulphate is the main ingredient in many of these treatments.
The brand name of the one I use is "Super Ich Plus"
Copper Sulphate is also sometimes called Malachite Green.
The Super Ich Plus is labelled for fresh water use only and like all copper containing solutions should never be added to a reef tank. You all probably knew that, but, I wanted to state it anyway.
The solutions I recommended above in this string are very toxic to the nudi's and to the corals, but they do not make the nudi's drop dead on the spot. Most of them move slower and are easier to rinse/shake off the coral. It also turns them a blue/green color due to the strong coloring of the copper sulphate. The copper sulphate poisons them, and they will likely die anyway.
I also fresh water rinse all of my equipment between treatments to insure no Nudi's remain alive in the containers/buckets etc.
I also guarantee that multiple treatments will be needed.
In future treatments (which you will need to do) I suggest you get something that specifically says it has copper sulphate or malachite green in it.
Note: this "cure" was adapted from an article by Tracy Gray on the coralfarmers.com site. At the end of the article, Coral Farmers added a note about the treatment dips and solution strengths using "Tetra Oomed" solution (which is no longer available). I did a little research and found that Copper Sulphate was the main ingredient in Tetra Oomed and adapted what I had available.
The every other day dips and the freshwater rinses of the QT Tank are adaptations I made to the treatment based on what was happening with the nudi's.
If you try this treatment without a quaranteen tank I think you will find that the nudi's reinfest the corals due to their propensity to wonder the tank. You won't get them all.
Don't use Coppersafe
Coppersafe is a chelated copper solution, it is not copper sulphate. I don't believe coppersafe is as toxic to inverts (short term) as copper sulphate. This may lead to having to dose at higher levels to kill the nudi's.
I also recall from my fish only days that Coppersafe is a much more dilute solution than copper sulphate. I have used both in the past for fish illnesses and coppersafe was generally added in teaspoon measures, while copper sulphate was added by the drop. I have not used any coppersafe in many years (15 plus) so this is all from my feable memory.
I would guess that the use of the wrong copper solution is why the Nudi's didn't start showing signs of stress right away.
Copper sulphate is a dark blue-green color and is found in many Ich/Oodinium treatments. Copper sulphate is the main ingredient in many of these treatments.
The brand name of the one I use is "Super Ich Plus"
Copper Sulphate is also sometimes called Malachite Green.
The Super Ich Plus is labelled for fresh water use only and like all copper containing solutions should never be added to a reef tank. You all probably knew that, but, I wanted to state it anyway.
The solutions I recommended above in this string are very toxic to the nudi's and to the corals, but they do not make the nudi's drop dead on the spot. Most of them move slower and are easier to rinse/shake off the coral. It also turns them a blue/green color due to the strong coloring of the copper sulphate. The copper sulphate poisons them, and they will likely die anyway.
I also fresh water rinse all of my equipment between treatments to insure no Nudi's remain alive in the containers/buckets etc.
I also guarantee that multiple treatments will be needed.
In future treatments (which you will need to do) I suggest you get something that specifically says it has copper sulphate or malachite green in it.
Note: this "cure" was adapted from an article by Tracy Gray on the coralfarmers.com site. At the end of the article, Coral Farmers added a note about the treatment dips and solution strengths using "Tetra Oomed" solution (which is no longer available). I did a little research and found that Copper Sulphate was the main ingredient in Tetra Oomed and adapted what I had available.
The every other day dips and the freshwater rinses of the QT Tank are adaptations I made to the treatment based on what was happening with the nudi's.
If you try this treatment without a quaranteen tank I think you will find that the nudi's reinfest the corals due to their propensity to wonder the tank. You won't get them all.
HOC
Premium Member
Just curious, coppersafe has 1.58% copper sulfate. How Much do the others have?? That stuff didn't even seem to bother the nudi's.
BTW the Monty made it and has polyps out already. Thinking of trying the 20 drops/liter lugols for 15 min again and then change 50% with chlorinated freshwater from the tap for 5 min. The Nudi's pretty much disintegrated.
BTW the Monty made it and has polyps out already. Thinking of trying the 20 drops/liter lugols for 15 min again and then change 50% with chlorinated freshwater from the tap for 5 min. The Nudi's pretty much disintegrated.
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Adjust your PH
Adjust your PH
If you do a freshwater dip, you need to adjust the PH of that freshwater before you dip the coral. Otherwise, you risk killing it.
I would also dechlorinate the freshwater as the killing action for the nudi's comes from osmotic pressure rupturing their cells and the chlorine will only stress the coral further.
Note: I would be really careful with freshwater on any montipora, I have read several posts indicating they tend to die with freshwater dips. As for the copper sulphate dips, I know mine tolerate that rather well, and only slime a little after treatment.
The copper sulphate concentration in other Ich treatments is much higher. It turns the water emerald green, I would guess at more like a 50% solution, although that is merely a guess. It is strong enough to stain buckets and bowls blue/green when mixed at the .75 ml/liter rate. The label does not indicate a concentration.
Good luck with the nudi's.
Adjust your PH
If you do a freshwater dip, you need to adjust the PH of that freshwater before you dip the coral. Otherwise, you risk killing it.
I would also dechlorinate the freshwater as the killing action for the nudi's comes from osmotic pressure rupturing their cells and the chlorine will only stress the coral further.
Note: I would be really careful with freshwater on any montipora, I have read several posts indicating they tend to die with freshwater dips. As for the copper sulphate dips, I know mine tolerate that rather well, and only slime a little after treatment.
The copper sulphate concentration in other Ich treatments is much higher. It turns the water emerald green, I would guess at more like a 50% solution, although that is merely a guess. It is strong enough to stain buckets and bowls blue/green when mixed at the .75 ml/liter rate. The label does not indicate a concentration.
Good luck with the nudi's.
HOC
Premium Member
To be honest i was supprised the coral made it through the 50% tap water dip. It was an encrusting though, I doubt a plating would have done as well. I have fresh water dipped sps before with no success which is why i tried it at 50%.
Hey Mitch have you tried that levamisol treatment in a reef system or just as a dip??
Hey Mitch have you tried that levamisol treatment in a reef system or just as a dip??
"Have you tried that levamisole treatment in a reef system or just a dip"
I have used it in a reef system, but only in low doses (4ppm) to get rid of flatworms. The doses needed to actually kill the nudibranchs are much higher (75ppm). At this dosage the levamisole will kill off alot of other creatures. The dosage I ended up using was 40ppm for 5 hours in a separate tank. At this dosage the nudi's become paralyzed and fall off the coral. It's a nice drug to use since you aren't constrained to a short period of time if you want to treat multiple corals at once. Like everything else it doesn't harm the eggs, so multiple dips are necessary.
Mitch
I have used it in a reef system, but only in low doses (4ppm) to get rid of flatworms. The doses needed to actually kill the nudibranchs are much higher (75ppm). At this dosage the levamisole will kill off alot of other creatures. The dosage I ended up using was 40ppm for 5 hours in a separate tank. At this dosage the nudi's become paralyzed and fall off the coral. It's a nice drug to use since you aren't constrained to a short period of time if you want to treat multiple corals at once. Like everything else it doesn't harm the eggs, so multiple dips are necessary.
Mitch
OOPS - My mistake
OOPS - My mistake
Mitch,
It sems you are right, malachite green and copper sulphate are different things. I stand corrected.
However, the Super Ich Plus does kill the nudibranch's in the solution concentrations I listed above.
Possible reasons for this: either
Malachite green is toxic to the nudi's or
The quinine in the mixture is toxic to the nudi's
Either way, the mix has worked so far and without the corals showing significant signs of stress.
I have treated the corals with this solutions 7 times, and they still look fine and they appear to be nudibranch free so far.
OOPS - My mistake
Mitch,
It sems you are right, malachite green and copper sulphate are different things. I stand corrected.
However, the Super Ich Plus does kill the nudibranch's in the solution concentrations I listed above.
Possible reasons for this: either
Malachite green is toxic to the nudi's or
The quinine in the mixture is toxic to the nudi's
Either way, the mix has worked so far and without the corals showing significant signs of stress.
I have treated the corals with this solutions 7 times, and they still look fine and they appear to be nudibranch free so far.
must be luck of the draw! The damage done before I found out that this fish can help was immense though.
JoeMack
Premium Member
I used an herbal ich cure and just tossed some in my frag bag for 10 minutes. The water was DARK brown I swished it around for a while. I put the frags in my nano and waited a few weeks. Everything looked great and added the caps to my tank.
The pieces were infected and I seen the nudis before I treated, after I didn't see any. Did they fall off? dono.
Just my two cents. I was just dealing with frag. The origional colonys were gone in less than a week. Hope I never get them again.
The pieces were infected and I seen the nudis before I treated, after I didn't see any. Did they fall off? dono.
Just my two cents. I was just dealing with frag. The origional colonys were gone in less than a week. Hope I never get them again.
