Lights... hit me...

G

Gweeds

New member
Right... in a few months I'll be buying new lights (I have a wedding to pay for first lol) for my 320g... question is what do I go For?

For reference, this will cost me more than my entire set up so far, so I wanna buy the right thing and something that will last. It HAS to be led for the energy savings over time and has to be fully controllable with sunrise / sunset etc.

Maximum budget is £2,500 (about $3200). They need to cover 8'3 x 26" and 26" depth and be good enough for SPS long term. I won't be upgrading again for a LONG while (10 yrs maybe)...

EVERYTHING for my set up has been bought second hand, but as I need these to last I am buying new... this is a big purchase for me, hence the researching already.

First thought was 4 hydra 52HDs but would love to hear suggestions and your reasons...

Ta muchly.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
I would say go for 7 Kessil A360s. 4 across the back of the tank and 3 across the front. At $400 a piece you're at $2800, leaving you with $400 for the spectral controller link cables and mounting options. You will be able to angle the lights to virtually eliminate any shadowing issues. Slief ran these over his tank for years with very impressive results. My recommendation is based on having the ability to arrange and angle multiple points of light (each pendant) thereby eliminating shadows for SPS.

Also, LEDs are optimistically rated at 50,000 hours, realistically more like 30,000. Expecting 10 years out of your LED fixtures may be a stretch.
 
Gweeds, you don't need to spend $3200 in order to get quality fixtures... unless you really want to!

Are the fixtures going inside a canopy or will the be out in the open over the tank?

How would you like to mount them? Hanging from brackets (or the ceiling), on goose-necks mounted to the back of the cabinet (or tank) or on legs that stand on the tank?

Take a look at Reef Breeders AquaSanrise R120 or Photon V2 48.
Both are 48" long so you'll only need two. The R120's would cost you only $1400. They have all the features you asked for and then some, like leds that are easy to replace with a screwdriver! The V2's would cost only $1170. They both use Cree and other quality leds, They both use aluminum cases, they have multiple channels (6) of color control, they do 24 hour sunrise/sunset control, they have thermally controlled fans (I run my 50" version of the V2 at about 75% and it runs so cool the fan doesn't even come on) and they are both very sleek and modern looking.

A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.

Will they last 10 years... being completely honest, I doubt it very much. But then I'd say the same thing about the very top of the line, most expensive brands like Eco Tech and Pacific Sun. And before 10 years go by, there will be great improvements in lighting, just like there has been over the last 10 years. Heck 10 years ago virtually nobody was using leds over an aquarium! Now 75% of the new fixtures sold are leds.
 
I suppose it depends a bit on how important a full sunrise/sunset is for you. The only lights I have personally used that get close are the ETM Radions, but it's a lot to spend for just that.
 
Post this in the SPS forum and ask for folks who actually light large SPS tanks with LEDs. You are on a different planet than the folks who you might get responses from here that are lighting a cube, 75G or even a 150G... which while getting big is not quite the same as what you have with over 2 feet of breath and depth which is a different problem to solve than 18 or twenty inches. Then ask what kind of SPS and filter out the monti, birdsnest and stylophora folks, unless this is what you are wanting to keep - these are weeds to most Acropora keepers that have super easy requirements.

The nuance in the kind of SPS will be REALLY important, so don't overlook this. The nuance with the coverage and shadows from just a few panels will be just as big if you want to have a nice SPS tank. This is why you need to ask folks solving the same problem as you. The nuance in the climate where you live is huge too since some will get hot, some will not, but heat is a blessing to some folks (I have no idea where you are from, sorry).

There is a guy on there now that has a nice video of his large tank under LED. Hold onto your shorts when you find out how many panels he uses. This is a top 20% tank, IMO, but he does it right. It is not just him, but the ones who do it pretty well will be something like 10-12, or more, Radion Pros (or the equivalent) to cover that kind of area if they are into acropora at a high level and not the easier SPS.

In the end, you might find out that what you have is not all that expensive. Reflectors are still the cheapest way to light large tanks with high light demand corals.

I have some lights that are 10+ years old, but they have needed parts - a starter, socket, end cap or ignitor here or there. I would not count on this with anything that you buy.

I have a big tank like you (almost) - 8x28x24 and I cannot afford to light it with LED either upfront or ongoing. I will leave out that I think that they are an inferior light source for SPS. However, if I did, the Radions provide the best color, but shadow like crazy, so I would need three or four units to replace each MH that I have - 12-16 total. The wide panel units like ReefBreeders, AcroOptics make for better coverage, but still not enough, but the color blend is not as good - I would need twice as many of these as what they recommend. By the time that I added all of these panels, there would be no power savings of any kind. I know that this does not help you very much, but you are seriously looking at a hard problem to solve which you will find out when you get more input from large-tank folks.

I would strongly consider this advice, which I think is well founded for a guy with a large tank and offers a balanced review. He got his panels for free, which is significant. His observations that A. Millepora don't do as well is spot on - this is a coral that high end Acropora folks love. Also, the growth patterns are different where LED acropora can sometimes grow from the bottom up instead of branching out like they do in the ocean or under different lights. Pay special attention to the part about no power savings:
https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/
 
+1 on JDA's advice, which is kind of what I was trying to say on the other forum - you might need more than you think (even if the stated light spread says x) and there might be alternatives which other supersize tank users are running or upsides/downsides you haven't thought of.
 
Ron Reefman said:
A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to a thread on this pendent? I wonder if this is the same person whose thread I had been following last year when I was getting really deep into LEDs, but haven't read in a long time (it was a very technical thread). I can't recall the OP's name, but I wonder if this is the first commercialization of that person's thread.
 
I'd echo that the 'problem' with LED is coverage. Most of the fixtures are point source lights (like MH) but without the large reflectors to mitigate said problem. Even better lenses don't solve the fundamental point source problem. I'm surprised we haven't seen LED fixtures with larger reflectors (with the diodes pointed up), but I suppose that would ruin the aesthetic. The consequence of poor coverage is that you end up with many more fixtures than you thought you would need. I have double the number I thought I would need. I would disagree with the above link in one regard - my green bali slimer has grown like a weed under LED.
 
The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.

I can see that with LEDs, even with no reflectors on them, the coverage is much smaller than people would think. With my small nano tank, using LEDs with no reflectors at all, I still have coverage issues with a distributed array (RapidLED Retrofit).
 
Hence the 7 a360s in my recommendation. The more point sources that you can independently articulate and angle, the better coverage and shadow reduction that you'll achieve.
 
ReefWreak said:
The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.
Click to expand...

They will be the same as other panel-based LEDs. Splash Guard is just like a lens. Diffusing is not the same as reflecting.

A spherical output LED in a reflector would be the next best way to go, but I don't think that they are coming. I think that ca1ore is onto it - the folks want the aesthetic and those who are willing to have reflectors would not likely want a LED and would just put a Radium or Phoenix in there.
 
Ron Reefman said:
Gweeds, you don't need to spend $3200 in order to get quality fixtures... unless you really want to!

Are the fixtures going inside a canopy or will the be out in the open over the tank?

How would you like to mount them? Hanging from brackets (or the ceiling), on goose-necks mounted to the back of the cabinet (or tank) or on legs that stand on the tank?

Take a look at Reef Breeders AquaSanrise R120 or Photon V2 48.
Both are 48" long so you'll only need two. The R120's would cost you only $1400. They have all the features you asked for and then some, like leds that are easy to replace with a screwdriver! The V2's would cost only $1170. They both use Cree and other quality leds, They both use aluminum cases, they have multiple channels (6) of color control, they do 24 hour sunrise/sunset control, they have thermally controlled fans (I run my 50" version of the V2 at about 75% and it runs so cool the fan doesn't even come on) and they are both very sleek and modern looking.

A new one to look at is the ReeFi-Lab pendant.
This is a new outfit and I just bought one to try it out. I'm very impressed with it. It uses 50 Cree leds, and has way more blue than white in the 5 channel color control. It uses a glass lens to adjust light spread from 2'x2' up to 3'x3', even the fan is controllable/adjustable with the software! They are $300 each (+$75 for each mount & goose neck) and I think 3 would be enough, but 4 would be enough to insure you could grow anything! So 4 with mounting hardware would only be $1500.

Will they last 10 years... being completely honest, I doubt it very much. But then I'd say the same thing about the very top of the line, most expensive brands like Eco Tech and Pacific Sun. And before 10 years go by, there will be great improvements in lighting, just like there has been over the last 10 years. Heck 10 years ago virtually nobody was using leds over an aquarium! Now 75% of the new fixtures sold are leds.
Click to expand...
Brilliant Ron, thanks for all the info... haven't even heard of most of these!! Budget was given as the absolute max, so if I can bring it in under half I'll be well pleased!

One question, why are the eco tech / kessil / AI units so much more expensive? I assumed there would be a big difference in performance and or quality of build for the price differential, but there doesn't seem to be... are reefers really paying double for the brand?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
Gweeds said:
One question, why are the eco tech / kessil / AI units so much more expensive? I assumed there would be a big difference in performance and or quality of build for the price differential, but there doesn't seem to be... are reefers really paying double for the brand?
Click to expand...

R&D costs, brand name, marketing, excellent products with consistent high quality. I have 2 vortechs on a nano. Could I have gone cheaper, yes. Am I glad I didn't? Yes. Customer service is excellent with Ecotech. You pay a LOT upfront, but they're great companies with excellent USA support. Can you do just as well without Ecotech, Kessil, AI? Yes, absolutely. I have DIY and have done great, and many others have done fine with Reefbreeders or Chinese LEDs from ebay. Lots of options in the hobby!
 
jda said:
Post this in the SPS forum and ask for folks who actually light large SPS tanks with LEDs. You are on a different planet than the folks who you might get responses from here that are lighting a cube, 75G or even a 150G... which while getting big is not quite the same as what you have with over 2 feet of breath and depth which is a different problem to solve than 18 or twenty inches. Then ask what kind of SPS and filter out the monti, birdsnest and stylophora folks, unless this is what you are wanting to keep - these are weeds to most Acropora keepers that have super easy requirements.

The nuance in the kind of SPS will be REALLY important, so don't overlook this. The nuance with the coverage and shadows from just a few panels will be just as big if you want to have a nice SPS tank. This is why you need to ask folks solving the same problem as you. The nuance in the climate where you live is huge too since some will get hot, some will not, but heat is a blessing to some folks (I have no idea where you are from, sorry).

There is a guy on there now that has a nice video of his large tank under LED. Hold onto your shorts when you find out how many panels he uses. This is a top 20% tank, IMO, but he does it right. It is not just him, but the ones who do it pretty well will be something like 10-12, or more, Radion Pros (or the equivalent) to cover that kind of area if they are into acropora at a high level and not the easier SPS.

In the end, you might find out that what you have is not all that expensive. Reflectors are still the cheapest way to light large tanks with high light demand corals.

I have some lights that are 10+ years old, but they have needed parts - a starter, socket, end cap or ignitor here or there. I would not count on this with anything that you buy.

I have a big tank like you (almost) - 8x28x24 and I cannot afford to light it with LED either upfront or ongoing. I will leave out that I think that they are an inferior light source for SPS. However, if I did, the Radions provide the best color, but shadow like crazy, so I would need three or four units to replace each MH that I have - 12-16 total. The wide panel units like ReefBreeders, AcroOptics make for better coverage, but still not enough, but the color blend is not as good - I would need twice as many of these as what they recommend. By the time that I added all of these panels, there would be no power savings of any kind. I know that this does not help you very much, but you are seriously looking at a hard problem to solve which you will find out when you get more input from large-tank folks.

I would strongly consider this advice, which I think is well founded for a guy with a large tank and offers a balanced review. He got his panels for free, which is significant. His observations that A. Millepora don't do as well is spot on - this is a coral that high end Acropora folks love. Also, the growth patterns are different where LED acropora can sometimes grow from the bottom up instead of branching out like they do in the ocean or under different lights. Pay special attention to the part about no power savings:
https://reefs.com/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/
Click to expand...
Thanks for all this, makes perfect sense. I have a few monti frags already and they are growing under my somewhat dodgy Chinese black boxes... I will be moving onto acros, I'd guess in around 12 months or so (my tank is 14 months old now and I wouldn't consider it fully cycled and matured until it's at least 24 months).

The montis were a bit of a test and once lighting is sorted, they'll be moved down the rock to make space. Flow etc is all set for acros long term as is my maintenance and nutrient control.

My biggest concern with T5s is the near constant swapping out of tubes, with a couple of 8 tube, 48 inch fixtures and assuming tubes are swapped out every 6 months, I'd be looking at 320 new tubes over the ten year period I'm aiming for.

I know the 10 year thing is unlikely, reality is I'll want to upgrade whatever I get after about 5 as tech moves on, but I have to use something as a benchmark for comparison purposes and I like round numbers [emoji2]

Having spoken to a few guys who still run the original hydras, they've averaged one new puk per 3 units over 5 years... the puks themselves aren't a huge cost so over time, even without there being any real difference in energy usage, good leds are still cheaper to run imo.

The shading does concern me with leds, but i still think the shimmer effect more than makes up for that aesthetically vs t5s. I will probably end up with a hybrid of led and t5 lol. MH is a big no no... the heat and energy consumption is just too much.

I'm based in the east of the UK, in Norfolk. So running temperature is not too big a concern, but that also means I don't have to run any cooling, even in the summer. It nearly hit 30c here a couple of weeks ago, my tank never went above 82f which is where I keep it (81/82) and 30c is VERY rare (maybe one day a year). If I got MH I would need some kind of cooling which then bumps cost up further.

Decisions decisions!!



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You answered your own question... not enough people would pay more if they were not better for some reason.

If you are getting advice that they are the same, then ask the folks who are currently doing what you are going to do... not people with mixed reefs, a monti or two or a small tank. You will get a better answers that you can use from large-tank SPS folks.
 
tastyfish said:
+1 on JDA's advice, which is kind of what I was trying to say on the other forum - you might need more than you think (even if the stated light spread says x) and there might be alternatives which other supersize tank users are running or upsides/downsides you haven't thought of.
Click to expand...
Thanks, yes I have posted this across 4 forums I think to get the most responses.

Interestingly the most recommended across all the replies so far have been the radion g4 pro, but cost is just too prohibitive.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
ReefWreak said:
The coverage issue is why I want to see more user experience with the new Philips CoralCare lights. Their splash guard diffuses the LED light which should help with coverage/dispersion, but there just haven't been that many posts on RC yet about these lights since they haven't been released in the US yet.

I can see that with LEDs, even with no reflectors on them, the coverage is much smaller than people would think. With my small nano tank, using LEDs with no reflectors at all, I still have coverage issues with a distributed array (RapidLED Retrofit).
Click to expand...
The CoralCare lights certainly look interesting. I think I'm right in saying the radion g4s also have this light diffuser set up too?

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Gweeds said:
Thanks, yes I have posted this across 4 forums I think to get the most responses.

Interestingly the most recommended across all the replies so far have been the radion g4 pro, but cost is just too prohibitive.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You are not likely asking the right people, unless they recommended at least eight or more of those... and most who know what they are doing with a large tank will probably be more like twelve or more.

Seek out large-tank folks exclusively. Everybody thinks that their 120 or 125 is the same as a 24+ inch deep or wide tank, but it is a different world and the same stuff does not scale. I cannot stress this enough.

You can use T5s for a year unless you want something like a top 1-2% SPS tank in which case you will be seeking MH anyway.

MH don't have to heat your tank up in a cooler climate. With large tanks, the heat will save you more than the cost to run a fan. Good design and a few fans are usually all that are needed.
 
I would think outside the box. Everyone will recommend Radio a etc as they are viewed as the best. People who pay a premium for them won't come out and say their choice was wrong either.

Hence, why other supersize tank owners actual experiences are gold dust.

Personally, I like to follow a different path and am willing to experiment otherwise I would have a set of Radio a or hydras over my (much smaller) tank.

How are you mounting them? Are they going to be in a cabinet, enclosed, or hanging? What about bracing etc?

There's lots of large tanks on here and UR, I'd have a look at some of those build threads too
 
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