liquid calcium reactor

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for coming on to RC to help.

When the product is added to water that is undersaturated with these ions, the micro-fine particles begin to dissolve into the system.

Reef aquaria, even those needing supplementation with calcium and alkalinity (except a few ultra extreme cases) are supersaturated with respect to calcium carbonate.

So are you claiming that the fine calcium carbonate particles do actually dissolve in reef aquaria, or are you claiming that the particulates are not calcium carbonate?

 

[Kent Marine]

Thanks for coming on to RC to help.

My pleasure. Calcium carbonate is indeed among the list of particulates in the product. It has been our experience that they dissolve into the water with time.

 

[nitroxdiver009]

Thanks kent ( i was the one who emailed you btw) and as i said I continue to use your products.

I came on to this fourm and cant belive what i was reading...


( i looked at your other post directfish and seriusly stop acting like you know it all)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Calcium carbonate is indeed among the list of particulates in the product. It has been our experience that they dissolve into the water with time.

OK, I guess that is where we disagree on how the product functions. IME, and in my tests, fine particulates of CaCO3 do not dissolve in seawater or marine aquarium water (and is, in fact, why seawater is described as being supersaturated).

Do you have a hypothesis about how this would happen?

What evidence do you have that they do dissolve?

 

[Kent Marine]

Kent is a large company that can afford to produce stuff like "liquid reactor" at incredibly high mark ups, to sell to people who dont know any better. If you dont want a calcium reactor (which is the cheapest way for me to maitain calcium/alk) then a 2 part is your best route.

Sorry, I felt that I needed to address this. Kent Marine is by no means a large company, and it is certainly not our intention to produce nor sell inferior products to our loyal customers. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and I hope that whatever you base your comments on is a result of actual experience with the full product line and not merely heresay. That said, I wish you luck with your reef aquariums, regardless of which products you prefer. There are a thousand ways to keep an aquarium successfully.

 

[nitroxdiver009]

if I do not have many inverts in my reef should i decrees the dosage?

 

[Kent Marine]

My experience with the dissolution of the particulates is based upon tests we ran in our labs, in which the product was added to tanks with a salinity of 1.022 g/cm^3, and in which concentrations of all major and most minor ions were within 1% of NSW concentrations. After a period of time, the particulates dissolved, and no sediment was seen. There was an increase in the concentration of calcium in these tanks. The time required for cloudiness to subside differed slightly between each system, and this is most likely a result of the slight differences in the water circulation rates.

I suppose that the hypothesis I would pose is that the presence of the other ingredients in the product serves to help break the bonds in the calcium carbonate, enabling the particles to dissolve.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

I guess that I cannot comment directly on your proposed mechanism, not knowing what else you might put into Liquid Reactor, but I do not know of anything that you could add that would have that effect unless it lowered the aquarium pH substantially.

Perhaps the particulates just become hydrated gels that are largely transparent.

In any case, your info provides the basis for an experiment that others can try and see if it dissolves for them.

 

[GSchiemer]

Kent Marine:

So, if I grind coral rock with a mortar and pestle into a powder and create a suspension in freshwater, your contention is that this can be used to supplement calcium and alkalinity in a marine aquarium?

 

[nitroxdiver009]

How often should Liquit reactor be added ( and is stronium still nessicary or will i just add less of it)

 

[Kent Marine]

This product is not ground calcium carbonate per se. Adding the product to an aquarium will increase the concentrations of calcium, magnesium, strontium, and will increase alkalinity. Again, this is a result of the chemistry of the solution. This is not the same as grinding aragonite to dust and adding it to a marine aquarium.

nitroxdiver: The product is designed to be dosed daily, which enables the concentrations of the target ions to increase gradually and steadily. No additional strontium supplementation is required when using this product.

 

[mhurley]

GSchiemer,

Not that I'm agreeing with this just yet but you may have missed this quote.

I suppose that the hypothesis I would pose is that the presence of the other ingredients in the product serves to help break the bonds in the calcium carbonate, enabling the particles to dissolve.

 

[nitroxdiver009]

do i decreese the dose once the calcium is at the leval i want it at

 

[GSchiemer]

If some "proprietary" ingredient causes the dissolution of calcium carbonate, then how does this "ingredient" distinguish between carbonates that originated in the bottle from other carbonates in the aquarium? Can you describe the mechanism for this dissolution? Even if some dissolution does occur, and I'm VERY skeptical of this, how effective is the product versus traditional supplements, such as the various two-parts, kalkwasser, & Ca reactors. My instincts tell me that, at best, it's an inefficient means to supplement Ca and alkalinity; hence it's not worthwhile except for VERY lightly stocked aquariums. Even in these situations, I can't see how the cost can be justified.

Also, might the cloudiness be explained by the fact that CaCO3 fines are in suspension in the aquarium upon first dosing Liquid Reactor, and then the water clears as the particles settle onto the substrate? That would be the most logical explanation. You can re-create the same scenario by dumping fresh powdered sand into an aquarium. Depending upon how much sand is introduced, the water remains cloudy for a period of time and then clears as the sand settles.

BTW, I really get suspicious of products when the case for efficacy is made by stating how much of it is sold. It's the same argument advanced by many makers of questionable human supplements.

IMO, you have to do a better job of explaing this product before I'm convinced it's not a sham.

Greg

 

[MiddletonMark]

There are a thousand ways to keep an aquarium successfully.

I'm happy to hear this statement, and to have you come explain your side, and to have you agreeably disagree
Thanks.

 

[Kent Marine]

Greg, this is exactly the kind of discussion that I didn't want to start by describing the product in my first post. I can't anticipate the feelings of every hobbyist as to whether they'll be upset by a reference to the amount of the product being sold; I made that statement to illustrate that there are a lot of repeat sales of the product, therefore there are a lot of hobbyists who are having good success using it. You will undoubtedly have an opinion about the skill or knowledge of these hobbyists, since you admittedly don't believe that the product is viable.

I believe that I have said all I can regarding the mechanism of calcium release. At the end of the day, we all have our opinions and beliefs regarding the right and wrong ways to maintain a reef, the products that we trust and the ones we feel are bogus; this is what makes all of us hobbyists. If your direct experiences with the product have led you to believe that it "is a sham", I'm sorry to hear it. I will continue to use it in my own reef systems because it works well for me. It provides a strong source of calcium, magnesium, strontium, and carbonates, has no direct affect on pH, contains no chlorides, requires no preparation aside from shaking the bottle, and does not need to be used with an automated or controlled dosing system. For my money, it's simply a better means to help me maintain parameters within desired ranges.

 

[nitroxdiver009]

do i decreese the dose once the calcium is at the leval i want it at

Cause i just reached where i want it to be today!@!!!!

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Kent Marine, Glad to see some of teh well know companies coming here to explain. Thanks.
As for me, I've used both seachem and reef success addatives and they have worked good for me. However, I do not have any SPS corals in this tank so I don't know how it would work using them in a SPS tank. There easy to use and cost effictive. I'm also under the belief of keeping it simple. I have no fancy gadgets running my tank. Just my two cents..

 

[billsreef]

If the so called "inactive" ingredients allow for the increased dissolution of CaCO3, what happens to those ingredients once added to the tank? Why do they not proceed to act on dissolving the CaCO3 that is bound up in the substrate and more importantly the skeletons of our corals?

 

[GSchiemer]

I made that statement to illustrate that there are a lot of repeat sales of the product, therefore there are a lot of hobbyists who are having good success using it.

There you go again. How can you equate repeat sales with efficacy? Why not answer my questions. I didn't ask for the secret ingredient, only a description of the process. This isn't a battle of opinions or beliefs. It's a question of whether your product works as advertised and whether it's a cost-effective approach for maintaining calcium and alkalinity in a marine aquarium. You've haven't stated a single fact or bit of scientific evidence or known theory.

I've been in this hobby since its infancy, and I've seen aquarium companies exploit naive hobbyists for years, so I'm very skeptical of products that lack scientific foundation or ask for our trust that "they work." In fact, that was the basis for the start of Kent Marine. It was an alternative to Albert Theil's company (Theil Aqua-Tech), which at the time sold many questionable products at considerable prices. Go ask your boss about it. I knew Jack when he was selling calcium hydroxide and strontium chloride out of his garage to hobbyists on Compuserve's FishNet forum. Jack debunked many of the mythical products that Theil sold at the time and was a welcome ray of light to the reef aquarium hobby. For me, there's a bit of irony in all this.

Greg