Listing of 20 coral species as threatened under the Endangered Species Act

[gcarroll]

I have about 6 years of dealing with this exact kind of thing, so honestly at this point what you're saying isn't nearly as confusing as the certainty with which you're saying it.

Please cite your experience. I know you owned an online coral business, worked at a popular wholesaler and went to law school. After that I'm in the dark. Just what have you been working on. Enlighten us!

 

[Fibinotchi]

I think a couple of the worlds billionaires need to set up a couple large artificial oceans to keep these and other species going while the problems with ocean pollution and lowering of ph and temp fluctuations are a problem. Like the Bill Gates seed storage thing.

 

[tripdad]

I agree with almost every point brought up here , even JP's. However I have been in the automotive aftermarket for 35 years and have watched as well meaning legislators draft and put up for vote bills with ambiguous or "umbrella" language that could eventually kill a multi-billion dollar industry. It's not that they are aiming at an industry, they are following what they believe or are told to believe, sometimes they just don't know. It is crazy to think that some elected official know's as much about reefkeeping as "we" do. It is silly to sit back and do nothing but hope. The solution is to educate lawmakers about what we do and what we don't do. That's what the eco people are doing. All we need do is respond in kind with enough education and refute the errors and mis information and we have a shot. We also need to play the economic angle as that speaks as much as anything to a lawmaker, they are elected after all, well most.

 

[discocarp]

For anyone interested, I'd suggest you look at a parallel in the reptile world: Geoclemys hamiltonii. I'm going from memory here, so I'd suggest you research more if you're interested.

The turtles are endangered, but there is a breeding population in Florida that was established prior to the listing. The turtles may be sold here in Florida, but they may not cross state lines. So we have a situation where you could buy the turtle, but not bring it to another state.

 

[discocarp]

...

 

[OrionN]

I did not write this but got this over the internet. I have not check for accuracy of this turtle information. I did now that once a species is listed as endanger, any sale of these species if allow is heavy scrutinized and we must provide evidence of cative breedign before selling the specimen involved is alow to proceed. I hope that something like this is possible. b\Becasue of this, I wanted to document that I have these species in my tank prior to the band if any.

The spotted pond turtle received protection from CITES and the Endangered Species Act (ESA) in 1976, and importation was banned. Luckily, a few were in private hands in the United States and in Europe, and under watchful eyes these turtles have thrived. One population in Florida has produced several hundred babies over the last 10 years.

Photo Credit: Russ Gurley
An adult male, left, and an adult female spotted pond turtle.


Sadly, even captive-hatched babies cannot be shipped out of the state where they were produced (as a commercial transaction) without a Captive Born Wildlife Permit. This permit is fairly easy to obtain, but both parties in the transaction – both buyer and seller – must have one or the turtles cannot be shipped across state lines. Babies and adults can be transported across state lines if the transaction is not commercial, such as a gift or breeding loan, but this transaction will be scrutinized heavily by U.S. Fish and Wildlife, and any attempt to skirt the law is usually dealt with harshly.

 

[discocarp]

Hopefully that example holds for us, at a minimum.

 

[JPMagyar]

First to Eric. I am sorry if my anger seemed in any way directed towards you or the thread. The fact is I appreciate your starting the thread, and have the utmost respect for all the work you have done to further the hobby. I am a "Glass Half Full" kind of guy and was merely trying to advocate that position.

Anyways, here is a quote from Ret Talbot's blog quoted by Advanced Aquarist Magazine in support of his opinion:

Here are a few facts to keep in mind:

The listing of a species as threatened (all 20 coral species were listed as threatened and not endangered) does not automatically result in prohibitions on possession or trade.
The listing of a species as threatened does not mean that commercial aquaculture must automatically come to an end.
NMFS has consistently stated it intends to work with trade as it undertakes the additional steps associated with the listings.
The process for NMFS putting additional prohibitions and regulations in place is a fairly straightforward public process that is, at present, not the NMFS's top priority (there are other legally mandated steps that must be undertaken first). In other words, this is the time for aquarists (and for the organizations that represent aquarists and the trade) to gather the data and look to demonstrate with data that the marine aquarium trade does not increase the risks to critical populations of these listed species and does not preclude populations from maintaining viability. Now is the time to show that certain prohibitions, if enacted, may negatively affect coral recovery and restoration efforts. Now is the time to demonstrate that the marine aquarium trade is more interested in working with NMFS in the best interest of the species than defending itself against a largely manufactured, all-or-nothing "œattack" from the federal government on the marine aquarium trade.

Is the Aquarium Trade Under Attack?

 

[rekn]

No I do not post my entire life's bio on every thread I join.


Let me start here . . .

High School Class Valedictorian
Dartmouth College/Tuck School Magna Cum Laude MBA/BE Class of '88
internationally published writer and photographer
worked in Washington for ALPA on the PAC
served on the AMA committee making rules for drones
OWN PROPERTY IN CA THAT HAS OWLS PROTECTED BY THE ESA AND HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH ESA REGS FOR MORE THAN A DECADE . . .
and as a result have spent many hours researching how to "beat" the ESA.

so yes I know a thing or two about ESA . . .

EDIT: oh and in case you want to do some research: I was born the son of a Hungarian Refugee and my birth name was Csizmadia Joszef Andras.

before, you listed things you thought would pertain to the topic. when you said

"Having worked for ALPA-PAC and also having a sister who is a Washington lobbyist for the nuclear energy industry I can assure you I am intimately aware of how Washington politics work. I don't have contacts inside this particular industry"

it was safe to conclude that's all the experience you had...why else bring up a different industry?

I find it odd that you didn't say "HAD TO DEAL WITH ESA REGS FOR MORE THAN A DECADE" in the first post.

 

[rekn]

And yes. . . you bet I am angry because you and everyone else on this thread is trying hard to "put me in my place" when all I was trying to say was the end is not nigh. The ESA is a political structure and as a result you need to follow the rules, but for those who do the loop holes can be huge. The number and diversity and health of acropora world wide is unquestionable. I find it hard to believe that the naming of a few acropora out of hundreds is making folks question the future of this hobby, and frankly I think the concerns will prove to be totally overblown.

The actions of the NOAA do NOT spell the end of our hobby. That is my entire point, and I'm not sure why I am the bad guy in this discussion as I am the singular person willing to stand up and take an opposing view to everyone else in the thread. In our supposedly democratic society I would hope that educated individuals would welcome opposing views.

I don't think any one here is trying to "put you in your place". this thread isn't about you at all and you were only mentioned when another poster gave his opinion on why his perspective might be more in line with what happens to the hobby.


that's it...perspective.

 

[discocarp]

I think I picked the wrong thread to bring up basically the only interesting thing I know about the topic.

Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

 

[GroktheCube]

Unfortunately, it looks like it has begun: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/201...sses-that-importing-listed-corals-is-illegal/

Import of the newly listed species is now illegal, unsurprisingly.

 

[acesq]

Unfortunately, it looks like it has begun: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/201...sses-that-importing-listed-corals-is-illegal/

Import of the newly listed species is now illegal, unsurprisingly.

Not quite yet: http://************.com/2014/09/16/usfws-los-angeles-advising-trade-coming-esa-listings/

********insert that other site about builders of reefs

 

[JPMagyar]

Looks like Ranger Rick jumped the gun . . .

As I reported earlier, USFWS wildlife inspectors at the Port of Los Angeles began notifying aquarium trade import and wholesale businesses today that it would be illegal to import any of the 20 species of corals recently listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). This information appeared to contradict earlier statements by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration‘s (NOAA) National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS), saying there were no prohibitions on any of the listed coral species at this time. After speaking with sources at both USFWS and NMFS, it appears USFWS was, in fact, in error, but the situation has nonetheless elevated fears amongst aquarium trade advocates about the real ramifications of the listings on trade.

USFWS Supervisory Wildlife Inspector Mike Osborn at the Port of Los Angeles (said)

“Once a species has been listed as threatened, you can no longer import them for commercial purposes.” Osborn specifically cited 50 CFR 17.8.

. . .

Marta Nammack, NMFS’ National ESA Listing Coordinator, disagrees with Osborn.

“50 CFR 17.8 authorizes import for FWS’ threatened species without a permit issued under 17.32,” she says, “But, our threatened species are not subject to 50 CFR 17.32.”

God Bless bureaucrats :debi:

 

[Eric Boerner]

See how serious the LE agency takes their jobs? That was a false start. Wait till they get the green light.

 

[sfsuphysics]

A great day for the reef ecosystems in the wild,

How do you figure? Banning the import of corals to a single country (or collection of countries that agree to these lists) is not going to restore reefs, it's not going to de-acidify the oceans, it's not going to stop algae blooms due to fertilizer run off, it's not going to stop the human influence which really is damaging the reefs.

Don't get me wrong, if it is in fact endangered/threatened then I understand the lack of trading. But to claim this is some big win for the environmentalists is a bit silly.

That said, do my corals that are on that list now officially get classified as "RARE" and "Limited Edition"

 

[tripdad]

Please read all of Eric's post before jumping on one line.