Live BlackWorms: Best Fish and LPS Food Ever?

jmaneyapanda said:
Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but I would like to understand what it is your making claims to. And if it is so, why these haven't become WAY more popular as fish feed.
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You would probably have to classify it as anecdotal (much like almost everything else in this hobby) but many many FW breeders swear by them.

Way more popular? Dunno... many LFS don't carry them. They are a PITA to keep nice and fresh at the LFS (I know, I worked in one that carried them). Most LFS don't keep them properly, even if they carry them.
 
SDguy said:
You would probably have to classify it as anecdotal (much like almost everything else in this hobby) but many many FW breeders swear by them.

Way more popular? Dunno... many LFS don't carry them. They are a PITA to keep nice and fresh at the LFS (I know, I worked in one that carried them). Most LFS don't keep them properly, even if they carry them.
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Yeah, I guess thats my point. There are people on this very forum that will swear by the "reef safe" ick meds, as well as the beloved.....
ECO-Aqualizer.jpg


Im poking a little fun here, but my point is, if someone is going to state that they are the "elixir of life" and will put fish into breeding condition, Id like to see some back up to it. I dont doubt they are useful and beneficial, but some bold statements have been made, and I'd like to see and understanding the basis behind the claims.

As for popularity, if, indeed, this food is determined to be so "life giving" and a critical aspect for breeding fish, I do, wholeheartedly feel they woudl be way more popular. They are a mild hassle to maintain (with the rinsing), but they are cheap, readily available, and, if shown to be so, the key to successful fishkeeping (per others statements). Why wouldnt they be WAY more popular?
 
A couple of my fish (flame wrasses and genicanthus angels) spawned after I started feeding LBW. Again, I know, I know...anecdotal.

I dunno...I think maybe you're going a bit far with "key to success" (though for some butterflies and other species, it very well may be, but only becuase it's the only thing they will eat)... Just saying they are used to put FW fish into breeding condition, and it "appears" to hold true for some marines. I'm just relaying info... I'm not telling people they must use them. People are free to draw their own conclusions from the anecdotal evidence provided :)
 
Fair enough. And I agree with your sentiments. I feed them too, and they work very well for me. However, as I stated earlier (and was disputed on), I dont feel as if the are the elixir of life they are being construed to be.
 
Not to be argumentative, but how can you make this claim if, by your own admission, you dont know the nutritional value?
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You are not being argumentitive at all and it is a good question.
I will try to answer it.
As I said I have been keeping fish for over fifty five years and saltwater fish for 40 years.
I have been using those worms for all of those years.
When the hobby started in the US in 1971 I got my first saltwater fish. I am an experimenter and never had a tank just for the beauty but for the learning aspect.
I have bred many fish including clownfish, pipefish, seahorses, cardinals, dominoes and many types of gobies. I could not get any of those fish to spawn without live food. The seahorses eat mysis and the pipefish eat new born brine shrimp but all of the other fish were conditioned on worms. I have wrote numerous posts on this and spoke about it in the two times I was asked to speak at aquarium clubs.
I have also been an avid diver since the late 60s, I have my own boat and equipment so I have spent hundreds of hours underwater observing fish, not as a tourist in a tourist resort but under my own boat and in many tropical destinations where I was able to just lay on the bottom for however long I wished to observe fish.
I come to my own conclusions and do my own research.
There is no one in this hobby who is considered an "expert" that has more time in the hobby as me because I started it when it became a hobby.
I am by no means an expert but I have spent enough time at this.
Thiel, Sprung, Moe and Delbeek are considered experts in this hobby and they are indeed very smart men, but none of them have more time in this hobby as I do. Some of them started the same year as I did.
(No I am not as smart as any of them as this is their business, I am a retired electrician)
I am saying all of this not because I am the God of fish. Far from it. But I have been experimenting with blackworms probably longer than anyone alive.
From observing fish in the sea I have learned that the main food for a fish is fish. Whole fish, guts, liver, scales, bones and all.
We as aquarists usually feed our fish fish fillets, shrimp tails, scallop muscle or some commercially prepared food.
Many members here have problems with diseases and ich.
I think I know why, or partially why.
It's a lack of a nutrient that fish need in large quantities.
Fish oil. All fish have a liver. That liver could be 20% of the fishes weight. Most of that liver is oil. So if a shark eats a 100lb fish, he is getting almost 20lbs of oil. 20lbs.
The food we feed our animals are woefully lacking in this oil. There is very little of it in shrimp tails, scallop muscle or fish fillets. It is only in whole fish
"and" live worms. Live worms, almost any kind are full of oil and although I can't be 100% sure it is a similar oil, through experimentation I have found it puts fish into breeding condition and helps keep them disease free.
For a fish to be in breeding condition it is producing eggs and sperm, both of these things puts a large burden on the animal and eggs are mostly oil.
That oil has to come from somewhere.
When a fish is in this condition, it's immune system is operating at peak capacity.
Again, how do I know that? Because for the last 30 years or so I do not have a hospital tank or quarantine tank. I have not lost a fish to a disease in decades. Most of them die in an accident or of old age. Some of them are 18.
I can take a fish from an ich infected tank and throw it in my tank and it will either die or get cured but never, not once has anything else become infected.
I attribute this to blackworms, so yes, I consider them a majic elixer.:fish2:
My tank is not the greatest tank you have ever seen but it is probably the oldest and it has a reverse UG filter, no additives, no UV sterilizer and no disease.
I add NSW right from the Long Island Sound along with local New York fish, crabs, shrimp, mud, rocks and seaweed. I do nothing different in this tank except feed live food including worms.
Does this answer your question, I hope so because I think I got carpol tunnel syndrome from writing it. :(
PS, I take fish oil myself every day and I spawn and have no ich :eek2:
 
I think more people do not do this because there are no frozen black worms available that I know of, which necessitates getting and keeping a live food. Most/many aquarists won't undertake that much effort.

I am a believer and am building my worm keeper! :)

At the risk of more skepticism, Paul, can you tell us about electrocuting aiptasia? :beer:
 
There are no frozen blackworms available and I don't know why. They can be frozen.
As to why this oil is not incorporated into commercially prepared food (because I know someone is going to ask)
Oil especially fish oil goes bad, thats why it is sold for human consumption in little capsules. Cod Liver Oil used to be sold in bottles. My Mother may she rest in peace, used to give it to me on a spoon. You just want to rip your tongue out.
Many children used to have to swallow it as a punnishment thats how good it tastes.
They don't sell it in bottles anylonger because it goes rancid and becomes useless, and smelly.
But anyway, it goes bad so it is not in dry food and it will not stick to anything wet so it is not in frozen food.
I do sometimes put the oil on pellets if I run out of worms. It sinks in. I then feed it to them before it goes bad which will take a couple of weeks.

At the risk of more skepticism, Paul, can you tell us about electrocuting aiptasia?
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The mojano Zapper works very well and there is a thread about it, just look up Zapper.
If you want more information about it you will have to PM me.
Have a great day.
Paul
 
Paul, Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate and understand your points. However.......(:fun4:) I still cant see the correlation you're jumping to. You make a very good argument for making sure piscivorous fish get necessary "oils" in their diet. However, most, if not all, of the fish you mentioned arent piscivores. They are opportunistic predators taking in crustaceans and similar for their natural diet. So, how would overloading them with an oil, which wouldnt necessarily be a natural intake item, make them "more breeder ready"? Again, I am not disputing your experience or observation, but and just questioning some deductions. Once more over, aside from just saying these blackworms have the same oils that exists in reef fish livers isnt quite conclusive. Do they? Has there been any study? Would other oils suffice?

I would wholeheartedly agree that many hobbyists have issues with disease and failure due to poor diet. However, that being said, there are also hobbyists that have enormous success on the same diets. I dont think its an exclusive phenomenon.

As I mentioned, I feed live blackworms, and my fish are thriving. Do I think it benefits them? yes. Would I suggest them to others? yes. Do I think that blackworms are the key to my success. In no way.

I would like to see more research done into this, though. While I dont believe that inconvenience is a big detractor, as they really arent THAT inconvenient, if these could be shown to be a big positive step, i think they would be used a lot more. How many aquarists have freezers full of frozen shrimp, or grow phyto, or hatch artemia, than a jar of worms is going to be thought of as a "pain".
 
Paul B said:
There are no frozen blackworms available and I don't know why. They can be frozen.
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Really? I'm not so sure... I've frozen them before (accidentally). When they thaw, they are grey and "dehydrated" looking. Not sure if that means any nutritional value is gone, but they sure don't look too good. Maybe they can't be processed like other frozen foods because they are simply too delicate, and it has nothing to do with freezing, per se...
 
jmaneyapanda said:
I would like to see more research done into this, though. While I dont believe that inconvenience is a big detractor, as they really arent THAT inconvenient, if these could be shown to be a big positive step, i think they would be used a lot more. How many aquarists have freezers full of frozen shrimp, or grow phyto, or hatch artemia, than a jar of worms is going to be thought of as a "pain".
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Sounds like the making of a pretty good poll. :reading:
 
Interesting, but anyone who says rinsing a rub of worms in fridge every day is not too much work is more nuts than me! I would like to see a commercially available frozen product (if they freeze well enough).
 
I think they're great for getting difficult fish to start eating, but that's where it ends with me. They're too much work for me as would culturing phyto or pods. The payoff just isn't there.

If it's the worm oil the fish need I'd just a soon chop up earthworms & add them to my frozen homemade mixes. Being a long time fish keeper for 40 years i remember how freshwater fish went crazy for chopped up earthworms.

Back in the day white worms were the trendy live food to get freswater fish in breeding condition. They are a lot easier to maintain feed, & harvest.
 
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Fishamatank said:
Interesting, but anyone who says rinsing a rub of worms in fridge every day is not too much work is more nuts than me! I would like to see a commercially available frozen product (if they freeze well enough).
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Really?! Spending about 20 seconds doing something to better care for your animals is too much work? Maybe Im overcommitted. It this day where hobbyists will dose 45 things, check parameters every day, culture live foods for corals, and breed at home, I felt this is a comparatively simple things. Heck, no more difficult than rinsing frozen foods before use, and I KNOW a lot of hobbyists do this.

Big E said:
I think they're great for getting difficult fish to start eating, but that's where it ends with me. They're too much work for me as would culturing phyto or pods. The payoff just isn't there.

If it's the worm oil the fish need I'd just a soon chop up earthworms & add them to my frozen homemade mixes. Being a long time fish keeper for 40 years i remember how freshwater fish went crazy for chopped up earthworms.

Back in the day white worms were the trendy live food to get freswater fish in breeding condition. They are a lot easier to maintain feed, & harvest.
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I remember using earthworms too, but was always cautioned to not allow the digestive remnants to be added to tank waters. whether taht was an old wives tale or not, Im not sure.

But, see comment above regarding "ease". Sure, not automatic like flake or pellets, but Im not sure I see how these can be considered any harder than most frozen foods.
 
However, most, if not all, of the fish you mentioned arent piscivores. They are opportunistic predators taking in crustaceans and similar for their natural diet. So, how would overloading them with an oil, which wouldnt necessarily be a natural intake item, make them "more breeder ready"?
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Many fish are opportunistic feeders but if you do much diving on a reef you will see that the lower portions of a reef near the sand is loadad with fish fry. 99% of these fry are eaten before they grow. There are of course crustaceans that fish also eat but the main source of food is fish and those fish are loaded with oil.
There are many successful hobbiests with healthy fish, I am not disputing that. I am saying that a fish in breeding condition is a healthy, disease resistant fish and fish will get into that condition with a portion of their diet as oil. I know this from experience.
If your fish are not breeding or making breeding jestures, they are not as healthy as you believe. Healthy fish spawn continousely all year long, they never stop unless their health diminishes.
Fish in that condition have enhanced immune systems and rarely get sick, again, personal experience.
Worms for me are no problem. I throw them in my wormkeeper and when I need them I suck them out and mix them with other foods.
Earthworms have the same oils and also work as I have also used them. But chopping them up may lose some oil.
Whole fish are the best food but they are hard to come by in the size we need. I had a meeting with "Ocean Nutrition" about offering tiny fish and I even told them I know a supplier of tiny makeral about 1/4" long, they seemed interested then forgot about it.
That would be the best food, even better than worms but they are not available.
If you want to use worms, use worms, if it is too much trouble, feed flakes or pellets. But I doubt your fish will be very healthy and spawn or be disease resistant.
I also think my tank not having a disease problem in 35 years without quaranting at least alludes to the fact that feeding worms has something to do with it.
I can't offer any other proof.
 
Paul B said:
Many fish are opportunistic feeders but if you do much diving on a reef you will see that the lower portions of a reef near the sand is loadad with fish fry. 99% of these fry are eaten before they grow. There are of course crustaceans that fish also eat but the main source of food is fish and those fish are loaded with oil.
There are many successful hobbiests with healthy fish, I am not disputing that. I am saying that a fish in breeding condition is a healthy, disease resistant fish and fish will get into that condition with a portion of their diet as oil. I know this from experience.
If your fish are not breeding or making breeding jestures, they are not as healthy as you believe. Healthy fish spawn continousely all year long, they never stop unless their health diminishes.
Fish in that condition have enhanced immune systems and rarely get sick, again, personal experience.
Worms for me are no problem. I throw them in my wormkeeper and when I need them I suck them out and mix them with other foods.
Earthworms have the same oils and also work as I have also used them. But chopping them up may lose some oil.
Whole fish are the best food but they are hard to come by in the size we need. I had a meeting with "Ocean Nutrition" about offering tiny fish and I even told them I know a supplier of tiny makeral about 1/4" long, they seemed interested then forgot about it.
That would be the best food, even better than worms but they are not available.
If you want to use worms, use worms, if it is too much trouble, feed flakes or pellets. But I doubt your fish will be very healthy and spawn or be disease resistant.
I also think my tank not having a disease problem in 35 years without quaranting at least alludes to the fact that feeding worms has something to do with it.
I can't offer any other proof.
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Well, I certainly agree with some of your points, but also respectfully disagree with others.

I do know that there is a plethora of microfauna, much of which contains fish fry. But, are you stating that these fish fry contain the massive livers that adult fish have (as per your shark consumption statement from earlier)? Fish fry are very undeveloped. Furthermore, many fish have natural diet very well known, and I would argue that fish fry dont play a significant role in many of the fish you mentioned. Again, Im not saying that fatty oils dont play an important role, but I dont that it is the "magic bullet" to automatic success that you are stating.

I VERY STRONGLY disagree with you that only healthy fish court and breed. The reproductive drive is an immensely strong drive. The animal world constantly shows this, and fish are no different. There are a HUGE number of reasons a fish WONT spawn, and chalking it up to poor health is flawed, IMO. And assuming that breeding fish are healthy is also flawed, IMO. Just my opinion.
 
But, are you stating that these fish fry contain the massive livers that adult fish have
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Yes I am. In proportion to their body weight, fish have about 20% of their weight as liver. A very young fish will also have a yoke sack that is mostly oil. By the way, the new borm brine shrimp I feed my breeding pipefish also have a yoke sack which is mostly oil. The oil in the liver is also used in buoyancy. I am not sure of the exact weight of a fishes liver but it is close to 20% in most fish. A shark has a liver that accounts for about 25% of it's weight.

I VERY STRONGLY disagree with you that only healthy fish court and breed. The reproductive drive is an immensely strong drive. The animal world constantly shows this, and fish are no different. There are a HUGE number of reasons a fish WONT spawn, and chalking it up to poor health is flawed, IMO. And assuming that breeding fish are healthy is also flawed, IMO. Just my opinion.
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Jmaneyapanda, it is fine if you disagree with me on this. I could debate this with you but there is no need. There are thousands of us here and most of us will disagree with each other most of the time.
It is a pleasure discussing this with you and I am happy you brought up an interesting discussion.
Have a great day.
Paul
 
Paul B said:
Yes I am. In proportion to their body weight, fish have about 20% of their weight as liver. A very young fish will also have a yoke sack that is mostly oil. By the way, the new borm brine shrimp I feed my breeding pipefish also have a yoke sack which is mostly oil. The oil in the liver is also used in buoyancy. I am not sure of the exact weight of a fishes liver but it is close to 20% in most fish. A shark has a liver that accounts for about 25% of it's weight.


Jmaneyapanda, it is fine if you disagree with me on this. I could debate this with you but there is no need. There are thousands of us here and most of us will disagree with each other most of the time.
It is a pleasure discussing this with you and I am happy you brought up an interesting discussion.
Have a great day.
Paul
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Agreed. I appreciate your experience and your input, and it has made me think and evaluate my own practices, and just because we dont agree, doesnt mean we still cant learn.
 
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