Live BlackWorms: Best Fish and LPS Food Ever?

[1DeR9_3Hy]

I feed them every day to my reef and have been for about 30 years, I don't know if that is long enough for a liver to get fatty.

lol, thank you for the laugh again paul.

 

[dancbw]

Where Blackworms come from.

Where Blackworms come from.

So I ordered a pound of blackworms from aquatic foods on Thursday, it got here on Friday, they are all dead Saturday! Half went in the fridge and half went into an aquarium to try and culture them. Neither option worked, and I was a little concerned when I was rinsing them on Friday after I got them because they water would not clear up. I rinsed and rinsed and rinsed them, and they were alive on Friday, but maybe they were on their way out of something because the water would not clear up and after a while I said screw it and left them in the lab. Checked them on Saturday.. one of the worst smells ever! Hopefully they will work with me to fix this, but it doesn't sound like it.

Tim,
it doesn't look like the whole story is being told.

Dan
http://aquaticfoods.com/Blackworms.html

Where Blackworms come from.
In the last few years the Blackworm Farms have dwindled down to two. All Blackworms are farmed by either Aquatic Foods or another California supplier.
Contrary to what is being told out there, there are only two Blackworm farms and both are in California

Here are some pics of the Blackworm Farm.


The first pic is of our three production ponds


http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/foods_nutritions/images/cbw.jpg


The 2nd is our main harvesting pond. Worms
from the production ponds are moved to the
harvesting pond for 30 days.

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/foods_nutritions/images/cbw2.jpg

This photo is of our guys harvesting the Blackworms.

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/foods_nutritions/images/cbw3.jpg


This photo is of our cement purging pond.
Here we leave them for 5-7 days in a bare bottom
cement pond. ( no food allowed)

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/foods_nutritions/images/cbw4.jpg

This photo is of our indoor falicity. Here we clean a 2nd and 3rd
time. What you see in this pic are 30 100-120 lb holding
tanks. We hold the cleaned worms here for 7-10 days.
Then transport them to our Airport wharehouse where they
are held and chilled down to 40-45 degrees and then shipped
via Fed Ex or out of Los Angeles airport.

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/foods_nutritions/images/cbw5.jpg


Anyone with any questions about our Blackworms or ordering
feel free to email to blkworm@aol.com

Dan
http://aquaticfoods.com/Blackworms.html

 

[tcmfish]

Hey Dan,

I thank you for sending a second pound free, but those didn't make it either. I put the whole pound in the fridge like you suggested even though you can see here that people keep them at room temp.

Also the only worms I have alive are a small portion of that pound that I put in a ten gallon to culture at room temp. (76F).

I am not trying to bad mouth you guys, just saying the two pounds I received didn't make it. Only a handful that are at room temp, despite what you suggested.

Also, Dan you may want to make sure your site is secure because I know of at least one person who didn't order because of that.

-Tim.

 

[AuroraDrvr]

Hey Dan,

I thank you for sending a second pound free, but those didn't make it either. I put the whole pound in the fridge like you suggested even though you can see here that people keep them at room temp.

Also the only worms I have alive are a small portion of that pound that I put in a ten gallon to culture at room temp. (76F).

I am not trying to bad mouth you guys, just saying the two pounds I received didn't make it. Only a handful that are at room temp, despite what you suggested.

Also, Dan you may want to make sure your site is secure because I know of at least one person who didn't order because of that.

-Tim.

Tim,

I have similar experiences. I bought a pound of worms (when I was trying a C. meyeri) and I split the batch in half. Half went into a 10 gal cooler w/ gravel and an air stone, half went into the fridge. The ones that went into the fridge lasted 2-3 days. The ones in the make-shift cooler lived for 3-4 months until I finally dumped them last week.

Blackworms are a tropical species. Storing them in the fridge just slows their metabolism and thus prevents them from spoiling as fast as if they were left room temperature.

The problem with storing them in the fridge, is that its usually a small amount of water (relatively) and after one dies, it becomes a chain reaction and the water fouls very quickly.

 

[Jacob D]

A pound of worms is a lot. Maybe shipping long distance is the problem.

I don't pretend to know the key to keeping large numbers alive but personally if I end up with more than a handful (what my LFS calls an ounce) they start to foul quickly. It seems that keeping them spread in a thin layer is the best bet, so more surface area is needed for more worms.

My LFS has his bathroom sink rigged up (yeah it's pretty sweet) to be a worm keeper. Basically he just stuck a piece of PVC into the drain and drilled a series of holes near the top of it so the water maintains a fixed depth. The water is left on a slow flow constantly... he has a ton of worms in there.

 

[1DeR9_3Hy]

A pound of worms is a lot. Maybe shipping long distance is the problem.

I don't pretend to know the key to keeping large numbers alive but personally if I end up with more than a handful (what my LFS calls an ounce) they start to foul quickly. It seems that keeping them spread in a thin layer is the best bet, so more surface area is needed for more worms.

My LFS has his bathroom sink rigged up (yeah it's pretty sweet) to be a worm keeper. Basically he just stuck a piece of PVC into the drain and drilled a series of holes near the top of it so the water maintains a fixed depth. The water is left on a slow flow constantly... he has a ton of worms in there.

i have worked for a wholesaler in FW trops, and to put thing in perspective when they were busy they went through MAYBE 2 lbs a week supplying 25 or so stores in the area.

1 lbs is a ton for one person unless you have a lot of fish and this is their primary food source.

Are black worms not available in local markets, is that why people are ordering online?

 

[Jacob D]

i have worked for a wholesaler in FW trops, and to put thing in perspective when they were busy they went through MAYBE 2 lbs a week supplying 25 or so stores in the area.

1 lbs is a ton for one person unless you have a lot of fish and this is their primary food source.

Are black worms not available in local markets, is that why people are ordering online?

That's what I was thinking too. 1 lb is about 16 weeks worth of worms for me... and I feed with them about 4-5x week. I believe they aren't available locally for a lot of people.

 

[Jacob D]

Regarding fat content...

Black Worms are ~ 14% fat, mysis are ~8% fat, cyclop-eeze are 34% fat. For those who have raised this point, do you feel that cyclops are a terrible food for fish? I had always considered them an exceptional food, especially considering the high protein content. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about cyclop-eeze before which is why I ask. Just looking for some perspective on the fat issue with LBW.

 

[sanchoy]

tried the LBW. I can attest from personal experience my fish just are way more lively compared to the old pe mysis routine.

I will chime in more after several weeks. But at first my CBB did not do anything, but once he tasted those worms, he was hooked.

 

[Ycore]

So, going on two months of feeding live blackworms. They have now become the primary food source for all my fish.. I don't know what the long term nutritional value is, nor whether they offer a balanced diet, but considering all the pros this food has exhibited, I don't really care.. I feed LBW exclusively 5 days a week, and PE mysis for the other two. For me, LBW has offered the following advantages:

1) Improved fish color and feeding aggressiveness.
2) Does not impact skimmer performance at all. When I feed PE misys it knocks my skimmer offline for 2-3 hours.
3) Doesn't cloud my tank nor float mysis particles all around. Even if I wash and strain the mysis, these small particles remain. LBW are consumed whole and leave no mess. Result, lower phosphate levels and a cleaner sandbed.
4) My Scolys, Dendro, and Hammer coral love them. My scoly practically turns inside out after feeding it LBW.

If you keep a CBB, blackworms in my opinion turn it from an "advanced" level fish to one that is easy to care for. Once a shy, difficult to feed fish that would only nibble at Mysis has now become a feeding monster that will terrorize any fish that dares take his share of blackworms. He will now happily eat mysis, but if I compare the amount he will eat vs the quantity of worms he will consume, there is no doubt he his a far happier, fatter copperband being fed worms.

My only complaint? NOT ENOUGH LFS carry them! I have no use for ordering a pound overnight fedex, so I'm forced to drive an hour to a the only remote LFS that carry them to buy 8tbsp that last me about a month .

If you are an employee of a LFS in the Dallas area, I implore you to carry Blackworms.. Please

 

[Stuart60611]

LBW are consumed whole and leave no mess. Result, lower phosphate levels and a cleaner sandbed.

You raise perhaps one of the best benefits of feeding LBW which has not been discussed much in this thread. The fact that fish consume them whole and with such vigor, thereby leaving no mess of food particles in the tank, greatly helps reduce the nutrient load of your system. For those with high nitrate/phosphate and/or nuisance algae problems, IMO the single biggest contributor is the dead food we feed. Unavoidably, feeding dead food leads to quite a bit of dead food geting traped in various areas of the system and roting in the system ultimately being the biggest cause of elivated nitrate and phosphate levels. Feeding dead food IMO has a much greater impact on the nutrient load of a system than fish poop or coral waste products. LBW pretty much eliminate this problem and can go a long way to reducing the nutrient load of the system.

 

[Ycore]

Yes, this is really huge.. Like a lot of people, I used to struggle (and still do to an extent) with phosphate levels, detritus, nitrates, etc. LBW has helped immensely in getting these levels down..

One thought for a possible great invention.. Everybody would love an automatic frozen fish feeder as there are many of us out there with tanks that harbor fish that simply won't touch pellets. However, the presense of such a device does not exist because of the obvious complexities of defrosting, refrigeration, the inconsistency of mysis size and density within a suspension, and how it could be fed in an automated matter than ensured a consistent feeding size, etc...

Now, blackworms can easily survive for days at room temp. Blackworms (at least in my experience) are happily eaten by any fish that rejects pellets and depends on frozen mysis. Blackworms are somewhat motile so don't have to be pumped through a tube. Could an "automated blackworm dispenser" be the final solution and worthy subsitute to the long coveted automatic frozen fish food feeder? Could something as simple as a box with a shutter door that peeked open to allow some to crawl out the crack and into the tank work?

You raise perhaps one of the best benefits of feeding LBW which has not been discussed much in this thread. The fact that fish consume them whole and with such vigor, thereby leaving no mess of food particles in the tank, greatly helps reduce the nutrient load of your system. For those with high nitrate/phosphate and/or nuisance algae problems, IMO the single biggest contributor is the dead food we feed. Unavoidably, feeding dead food leads to quite a bit of dead food geting traped in various areas of the system and roting in the system ultimately being the biggest cause of elivated nitrate and phosphate levels. Feeding dead food IMO has a much greater impact on the nutrient load of a system than fish poop or coral waste products. LBW pretty much eliminate this problem and can go a long way to reducing the nutrient load of the system.

 

[SDguy]

i have worked for a wholesaler in FW trops, and to put thing in perspective when they were busy they went through MAYBE 2 lbs a week supplying 25 or so stores in the area.

1 lbs is a ton for one person unless you have a lot of fish and this is their primary food source.

Are black worms not available in local markets, is that why people are ordering online?

While I agree 1 lb is a lot for one person, it's manageable. Too bad it's neceaasy for some people in certain areas. Split it with a friend, and you are golden But 2lbs for 2 weeks for 25 stores is beyond minuscule. (Did I read your comment correctly?) The LFS's I've ever dealt with get them in, per store, in significant sizes. I mean, I buy 10 portions at a time, which looks to be about 1/3lb.

 

[MikeandNicole]

I have added LBW as a treat once a week for my fish. Paul B had posted about this over on my local board a while back so I have been doing it on and off for about 6 months or so. They tear throw them, even my mandarins will pick them off. My corals love them and my cleaner shrimp go crazy over them.

I am lucky my local LFS sells a cup for like 1.50 and 3 for 4 dollars.

 

[snorvich]

For me, one pound is the right amount. I have multiple tanks, keep the worms in a worm keeper where I feed them, wash them, and tuck them in for the night. And do a water change to their sump once per week. I suspect I will go through one pound in about 4 weeks. But since there are no sellers near me, online ordering is the only/best way.

 

[tcmfish]

The store I work on and off for back home, gets in 4lbs a week. We had a very large freshwater customer base and also fed some of the finicky fish them too.

 

[snorvich]

By the way, leopard wrasses go NUTS for live blackworms

 

[Thales]

Regarding fat content...

Black Worms are ~ 14% fat, mysis are ~8% fat, cyclop-eeze are 34% fat. For those who have raised this point, do you feel that cyclops are a terrible food for fish? I had always considered them an exceptional food, especially considering the high protein content. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about cyclop-eeze before which is why I ask. Just looking for some perspective on the fat issue with LBW.

Jacob,

Yes and no and we're not sure. Here at work we feed a lot of cyclops to the big reef tank, mostly to make sure the garden eels get enough food, and there are many fish that are 'fat' looking. Not the full body fat, but with fat guts. On necropsy, many fish, fat or thin, have fatty livers. It is suspected that CE may be responsible if its over consumed. I think it comes down to basic well rounded diets - eating anything too much can produce bad effects, and its easy to think that a food with 34% fat could have bad effects if it was the only food eaten long term. As mentioned earlier, marine tropicals readily eat brine shrimp, but its not a good long term food source - specially if not gut loaded correctly/well.

Earlier in the thread people were asking about the nutritional value of goldfish, so here is a link to a two part article by Rob Toonen that goes into it. This was posted earlier, but seems to have been missed:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/invert.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/invert.htm

I think there is a lot to consider regarding CBW as a 'fantastic' food source. It seems to me that fish oil is different between cold water fish and tropical fish (human fish oil supplements come from cold water fish), so generically saying that oil in worms is good for fish seems difficult to support without further study. People have been feeding marine tropicals CBW since I started in the hobby in the 80's, so this idea is not new, but it has never really gained traction because there is a lack of data, and I suppose because of the idea, right or wrong, that terrestrial/freshwater foods aren't the best for saltwater animals. I am not sure how I stand on looking at spawning as an indication that CBW are a great food. I would suspect that CBW are a good sometimes food or good for getting difficult eaters to eat (if they will take it). As an all the time food, I would urge caution, just like I would for any other food.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Regarding fat content...

Black Worms are ~ 14% fat, mysis are ~8% fat, cyclop-eeze are 34% fat. For those who have raised this point, do you feel that cyclops are a terrible food for fish? I had always considered them an exceptional food, especially considering the high protein content. I have never heard anyone say anything negative about cyclop-eeze before which is why I ask. Just looking for some perspective on the fat issue with LBW.

Hey Jacob, I'll try and answer your question as best I can with the caveat that I am not a fish nutritionist (as you know!). In short, all fat is not created equal.

I'll take your word for it that that's an accurate number for Cyclops-eeze. I think what is just as important to consider as the total fat content is the percentage of the fat that is saturated vs. polyunsaturated. I don't have any numbers sitting in front of me for these ratios in blackworms, but I would bet a stack of money that the amount of saturated fat content in blackworms is very high, and that they are very low in polyunsaturated fat.

Here's a quote from Rob Toonen's article on nutrition from Advanced Aquarist.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/invert.htm

A buddy of mine is a fish parasitologist who used to volunteer with a couple of veterinarians at public aquaria to do autopsies on dead fish. He was telling me that the single most common cause of death he's seen among marine fishes at public aquaria is "fatty liver disease." Although not really a disease, fatty liver is a serious condition in which the liver becomes enlarged, often to the point that it interferes with, or even crushes, the other internal organs and is apparently the cause of death. This condition seems most commonly to be the result of poor diet, and the consensus of several well-known fish pathologists is that the single most common cause of fatty liver disease is a diet high in saturated fats, although biotin and/or choline deficiencies, toxemia and "unknown nonspecific causes" are also possible factors. My buddy said that he also sees the same fatty liver disorder in a variety of marine fishes (most commonly groupers and lionfishes) from pet shops and hobbyists who fed these predators on a diet of primarily live goldfish. Although bacterial diseases and parasitic infections claim many more fish than nutritional deficiencies(Francis-Floyd and Klinger 2003), fatty liver disease is probably one of the most common of fatal nutritional problems.

I would not suggest feeding large amounts of Cyclop-eeze or mysis as a staple part of the diet either. Both are pretty fatty, and of course mysis has issues with shutting down your skimmer. I consider both to be a concentrated source of HUFAs, and for Cyclop-eeze a good source of astaxanthin, and both of these are of course good to get into your fish on a sparse but regular basis. Fish fed solely PE mysis can get obese and get fatty liver too. If you're going to feed these foods, I'd suggest also including a large amount of foods very low in fat like squid, shrimp, and clam in your fish's diet.

 

[snorvich]

I am confused. HUFA is highly unsaturated fatty acids which are supposed to be good for a fishes immune system?