Live rock and dry rock providers

[Cheeselady]

I'm researching my rock options from on-line providers because my LFS is quite pricey in terms of "cured" rock. I can get cheaper "sort of live" rock but I'm not well set up to do an extensive cure in my own home.


I like the bio-diversity of quality live rock but of course it's pricey - I'm thinking of doing 30lbs of 50/50 live/dry to set up my 46 gallon. I'll also be adding the 10lbs of rock from my existing tank.

I'm looking at the following providers (a lean strongly towards aquacultured rock)

ARCreef
Tampa Bay Saltwater (looking at "the package")
Florida Live Rock
Reef systems coral farm (they offer live pukani)

Does any one have experience with these providers? Am I really going to regret the number of bad hitchhikers? (I do love finding new critters, I saw a limpet I didn't know I had yesterday!)

 

[scooter31707]

TBS is the best source for live rock. I got some dry rock for Bulk Reef Supply.

 

[earwicker7]

TBS is amazing stuff.

 

[alton]

TBS has great reviews on RC, if you want another source try KPAquatics with there overnight 60lb package and forget about the dry rock.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Live rock and dry rock providers

I have first hand experience with tbs rock and am selling it all off if that tells you anything. I know I'm in the minority but still wanted to give you my honest opinion.... It's overpriced and not worth it.

I bought 200# of it and paid a fortune. The shipping is substantial so if you are already on the fence based on the prices listed just know hat you will be spending a few hundred more just for shipping.

I got the rock and set up a brand new tank. Rock came in fine and full of life as expected. Looked great at first but that quickly faded. There are going to be tons of pests on there and just about everything is in fact a pest in one way or another. It was packed with limpets which are harmless to everything really but tunicates! The tunicates are what you are seeing on the rock when you are describing all of the "life" all over the rock. Richard told me they were harmless. I know for a fact that those things devour all of the tunicates. I would see them right on top of patches and they just bulldoze through them.

The stone and gorilla crabs are there and lots of them but for the most part they are so small they won't kill anything but maybe snails or some other tiny crabs. They won't be an issue until they grow larger. But you will spend a long time getting them all out eventually.

The biggest pest of all are the damn mantis shrimp! Sure they look cool and don't harm your corals or probably fish but they are another thing that will ruin the "life" on your rocks that you paid for. They will decimate your crab population. I lost hundreds of porcelains in months and I know it's from them. I would see crab shell pieces all over and it's from them hunting and killing them. They killed a ton of my cleanup crew snails, Ive even seen them worth my own eyes breaking all of the barnacle clusters from the rocks to get to the barnacles inside. When they do that it exposes some of the core of the Walt smith rock which is that ugly cement. It's been 7 months and I have nothing to show for it. All of the uniqueness is gone and it looks like a bunch of dry rock sitting there that I paid 6x as much for.

That's not even the worst part. I knew those things would fade eventually. The worst part is I haven't been able to get my nitrates down below 25. They started in the 70s. My tank is a 225g system with a tiny bioload of (2) small clown fish, (1) medium yellow tang, (1) royal gramma, (1) tiny anthias, (2) small wrasses.

I put the rock in on day one and fell for the "instant reef" notion. I also started with carrib sea live sand. My tank as a fuge full of chaeto, 5 filter socks cleaned and changed 2 times per week, and a large skimmer. I run GFO and carbon as needed. I cousins get my nitrates down from day one. I have changed hundreds of gallons of water. I sold the tang thinking if I get rid of the largest bioload contributor it would help... Nothing. I have dosed prodibio Biodigiest for several months... Nothing. I carbon dosed for several months and nothing.... I dosed several very large doses of dr Tims waste away.... Nothing. Lately I've been using the aquaforest np pro and pro bio s... Nothing.

I know it's the rock because I had a QT tank with no life in it that tested nitrates at 0 when I set it up and cycled it. I put some of the left over rock I had into that for more filtration and in days it tested 25 nitrates. I removed the rock and did nothing else and it was back at 0 in less than 48hrs.

I've emailed Richard and he basically told me I'm SOL. I'll never buy another thing from him as long as I'm in the hobby.


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[Dealseer]

I must echo Clownsrcoo comments above. Reading his write up felt like I was literally reliving my experience all over again.

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Live rock and dry rock providers

I wish more people would relay that info to Richard. He thinks I'm lying about all of it. He says Im the only one that's ever complained about the problems I'm having which is obviously BS.


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[ClownsRCoo]

I feel that it's gotten this great reputation spread and again I hope my experience isn't the norm but I feel like more than half of the people that comment on it are going strictly by what they have heard and haven't had first had experience with it at all.

Here is what you get on day 1


And here is what you are left with a month or two later




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[Cheeselady]

Ugh, almost 50/50 split. Seems like folks either love it or hate it. The mantis shrimp are what scare me the most, I've heard they can be beasts to catch and can leave a nasty mark if your not careful.

ClownsRCoo, what about other critters (good and bad) how did they hold up?

 

[Dealseer]

I believe folks shy away from speaking out about TBS because of ridicule from some folks. TBS is a sponsor here.

 

[Fiver]

I'm a newbie to the hobby and started with a TBS package in October 2015. I really enjoyed and continue to enjoy it myself. I ordered a smaller package (I believe the 20 or 25 gallon package) for my 33 long. I can see how dealing with 200 pounds of live rock could be challenging in terms of hitchhiker control.

Bad hitchhikers for me were mostly gorilla crabs, which were easy enough to remove over time. I lost a small zoa frag to them, and I know they cut off the very end of my serpent star's arms. There are none today, as far as I can tell. I removed several whelks, too.

I count all other hitchhikers I've seen as good: many porcelain crabs, serpent stars, pistol shrimp, worms, snails, etc.

I did experience die-off, but I figured that was to be expected, and I know that it took me a long time to get in the hang of caring for my tank. I still see some tunicates, and some of my barnacles are still alive.

The package includes sponges that I just don't think we are equipped to care for in aquariums, but all other creatures have fared well.

Here's a pic. Top is recent and bottom is soon after the arrival of the full package:

 

[ClownsRCoo]

Ugh, almost 50/50 split. Seems like folks either love it or hate it. The mantis shrimp are what scare me the most, I've heard they can be beasts to catch and can leave a nasty mark if your not careful.

ClownsRCoo, what about other critters (good and bad) how did they hold up?

Whelks will kill your cleanup crew so they have to go and I had tons of them. Probably pulled out 60 or so and I'm still seeing them. Gorilla and stone crabs are fairly easy to get out. Mantis shrimp are tough man! They are so smart and knew exactly where I could get my forceps or not. I had a total of 9 of them too. I just got the last one out about 3 weeks ago. So it's taken me over 7 months to get them all.

I have nothing critter wise left but a handful of pistol shrimp which are cool but they never come out so you can't see them. I hear clicking which is how I know they are there. All of the porcelains are gone. I have 2 serpent stars. My sponges slowly withered away.

Don't get me wrong. Again I expected to lose the sponges and tunicates eventually but I lost all but 2 sponges in under 2 months. It's all the other crap that lives in the rocks that really contribute to the loss of what's appealing about the rock like I've already outlined.


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[Cheeselady]

That's a lovely tanks Fiver, thanks for the Pic! In the bottom pic, is that the gorgonian that comes with "the package"? How did it fair? It looks you might have moved it in the more recent pic but maybe that's a different piece?

 

[alton]

Sorry about your bad experience, the KP rock comes from the Atlantic side, I got it in the winter with less growth It still looks great with no Nitrate issues, since the rock was shipped over night, the tank never cycled, I added rock one week and then corals the next. When I saw my Mantis I made a coke bottle trap, placed a small piece of table shrimp inside and had him the next morning. I would never use anything else.(Picture from August the jawfish were mating and making a mess)


When I first added it


Good luck on your tank, whatever route you decide

 

[d2mini]

I've used TBS 4 or 5 times now and every time it's an awesome experience.
Start here to see my most recent TBS shipment.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24560186#post24560186

As far as ClownsRcool's experience above, that still baffles me.
We tried just about everything and I have no idea where his nitrates were coming from. I didn't get any Pukani (just the walt smith rock) though. Mine were high in the very beginning but after several days the denitrification kicked in and they started dropping dramatically. Who knows. That was some amazing, cherry picked rock, too. It's a shame and a shock that there were such bad nitrate issues. I've heard complaints about hitchhikers before but the nitrate issue was a first for me.

What critters hitch hike in is just a crapshoot. I didn't get a single mantis this time which is odd and frankly I was almost a tiny bit disappointed. haha
You are going to see some little gorilla crabs, whelks, pistols, etc. Mostly not a big deal and easy to remove as you see them. I like the pistols, personally. I don't think I've ever seen limpets come in on my rock. IMO, as far as critters go, all the cool stuff you do get makes the slight hassle of the bad guys worth it. Not everyone agrees with this though. Mantis may go after clean up crew if they are hungry. So what... hermits and snails from reefcleaners.org are so dirt cheap, not a big deal to replenish every 6 months or so.

As far as tunicates and sponges go, that stuff just isn't going to last regardless. You enjoy the extra colors and textures while they last. There is no easy way to provide them with the necessary nutrients in our closed systems to keep them alive long term. As coral are getting added, that stuff is slowly disappearing. It is what it is. Some hang around much longer than others. I still have some orange tunicates after 6 months now. Some sponges are still going strong, others have died.

TBS may not be for everybody, but I still believe if you get "The Package" with the sand, rock, and cuc, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a healthy, thriving tank with little to no cycle, ready to start adding coral. And it's an amazing experience to witness all that life in your tank, even if some of it dwindles over time. That's been my experience over the years with several tanks. Of course I can't speak for everybody.

 

[Fiver]

That's a lovely tanks Fiver, thanks for the Pic! In the bottom pic, is that the gorgonian that comes with "the package"? How did it fair? It looks you might have moved it in the more recent pic but maybe that's a different piece?

Thank you. That is a photosynthetic gorgonian that is part of the package. It's doing very well. I've noticed a new, small branch developing from an established arm. It used to lean against a rock, and I recently noticed that some of that rock is being encrusted by the gorgonian. I posted a recent thread about that (with a picture) in the "reef discussion" section.

Knowing what I know now, I would have set up a short term quarantine tank for the rock where I could observe and collect as many bad hitchhikers as I could before placing the rock in my display.

I'd also consider a special request that TBS include other things in place of those sponges (maybe more gorgonians, good inverts, macro algae, etc.).

Good luck.

 

[Grayhead]

My experience with TBS has been positive so far. Had a few stone crabs. No whelks, mantis so far. Also, my phosphates are low and no nitrates at all. My tank has been super stable from day one. My sponges and goes still look good as new. The ball sponge has reduced some. I am dosing sponge power to help keep them.
OP, there is good and bad in any choice you make. Do your research and know what to expect. I went with TBS for the stability and near instant reef. I feel you cut months off a new tank cycle with true live rock. To me, it's one area you can exploit to move faster than normal.

 

[neiltus]

I bought three boxes from tbs and setup with special grade sand.

There is die off, if you don't address this you will get sky high NO3/PO4. Water changes, carbon, physically removing some of the larger sponges, GFO and a skimmer all work to address this. My NO3 got up to about 50/PO4 to 1. As of tonight my NO3 is 12 and my PO4 is .04 (set up in August).

I did not get a 'cycle', no NH4, some NO2.

I got a Large Pistol, a small mantis and several small pistols, and crabs. The large pistol and mantis have helped me remove the crabs. I manually removed the bad ones when I can catch them. The remaining few are pretty fast.

I just added a Potter's and Yellow prawn goby (I hope to pair the pistol), last sunday, these are my first fish. I also have two BTA and a hammer coral, a peppermint shrimp and a cleaner shrimp. None of the pests have bothered the inverts or fish.

I had a couple quarter sized flatworms of some type. They creeped me out so they were removed.

It's above average rock IMO. It's quite a value vs other alternatives out there. You will have to do more than a 10% water change every 2 weeks while you manage die off...if your expectations are the lowest possible maintenance vs live rock, there are other alternatives out there.

The whelks do nothing other than clean-up uneaten food...and they do a great job of it.

I have not lost any of my CUC.

 

[d2mini]

One other thing which may or may not be true, but I have definitely seen a pattern...

Those who report issues have not ordered the complete "Package" which includes his sand.
As far as the cycle is concerned and "die-off", I think the sand is a key component. It's filled with TONS of good bacteria and tiny critters. The rock comes straight from the ocean. Putting it in a sterile tank will probably lead to more die off than if you use the TBS sand.

For me, once Part II was in, after about a week the tank usually goes on cruise control with just normal maintenance. Nitrates are usually a little high but they drop fairly quickly. On the current tank, I put LPS and SPS in the tank (some mature stuff from my old tank and some new frags) within the first two weeks and everything is still alive today except maybe a couple small frags that didn't make it.

 

[Cheeselady]

This has been great folks, lots of interesting stories, both good and bad.

Does anyone know if I can do a more "custom" version of the package at TBS? I already have caribesea live sand (it was a gift) and a partial cuc in my existing tank.