BeanAnimal
Premium Member
29special, it only takes a small piece of rock or trading frags with others to introduce the extra "stuff".
Bean
Bean
Live Rocks really needed?
- Thread starter ozadars
- Start date
There are multiple ways to establish a successful system, one of the great things about this hobby!
I suppose one reason most reef tanks have live rock, it well, because all natural reefs are built on live rock....
One thing to consider to save some money, make things easier logistically since you are in Turkey is the "black foam" method to create artifical "rocks."
Here is a link to a local reefer who has a nice looking foam/live rock mix:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...rpage=25&highlight=sidewinder770&pagenumber=2
I suppose one reason most reef tanks have live rock, it well, because all natural reefs are built on live rock....
One thing to consider to save some money, make things easier logistically since you are in Turkey is the "black foam" method to create artifical "rocks."
Here is a link to a local reefer who has a nice looking foam/live rock mix:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...rpage=25&highlight=sidewinder770&pagenumber=2
Several places sell "dry base rock" which was once live, but no longer is. I've been looking at using that. Several companies sell detrivore kits, bacteria cultures, coralline cultures, and so on. I was thinking about going about setting my tank up with those items to give me more control over what critters are in my tank.
My only concern has been whether or not the rock would become "true" live rock for the purpose of filtration, and about how long I should expect it to take to do so.
My only concern has been whether or not the rock would become "true" live rock for the purpose of filtration, and about how long I should expect it to take to do so.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
What is "true" live rock?
Of course the base rock will become "live" rock. The life in the rock will grow as the bioload in the tank grows.
Of course the base rock will become "live" rock. The life in the rock will grow as the bioload in the tank grows.
Heh, exactly. I'm pretty new. I understand filtration to be the primarly role of live rock. I'm looking to create live rock and sand, but with considerably more control over what visible life exists on it. It's unclear to me if that rock will filter eventually, but not as good as the stuff ripped fresh out of the water ... or how much longer it will take to become live.
I'm in agreement with you Fredfish. I think there is not near enough open water in a lot of tanks I see. Sometimes we just go along with the crowd to make sure we don't screw up, but if you don't think outside the box, then what's the point? Nitrifying bacteria live on any and all surfaces inside the acquarium so there is really no need for all that live rock in the tank except to have something to anchor corals and such to. Any structure used as a base for a reef will harbor bacteria, and as long as it doesn't leech anything bad into the water, why not use it.
What kind of life are we talking about here? bacteria? Diatoms? micro crustacians? ...
I doubt that most people understand what the possible range of beneficial life is and what the range of beneficial filtration is.
To get live rock, all you need is rock, any rock, and salt water. It will become bacterially active givne time. This could be considered live rock, but IMO it is not particularly good because it contains a limited range of organisms.
To me, good quality live rock contains a full complement of bacteria detritovours, filter feeders algaes and grazers. It will then be a much more effective processor of excess nutrients in the various forms they take in our aquariums.
Fred
I doubt that most people understand what the possible range of beneficial life is and what the range of beneficial filtration is.
To get live rock, all you need is rock, any rock, and salt water. It will become bacterially active givne time. This could be considered live rock, but IMO it is not particularly good because it contains a limited range of organisms.
To me, good quality live rock contains a full complement of bacteria detritovours, filter feeders algaes and grazers. It will then be a much more effective processor of excess nutrients in the various forms they take in our aquariums.
Fred
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
By importing corals, fish, sand, rock and water from other systems, we get a full complement of bacteria detritovours, filter feeders, algaes and grazers 
chris wright
In Memoriam
I agree.
I think the main decision to be made is what you want to do in the way of aquascaping. If you like and can afford the live rock, use it. Many benefits as previously stated. On the other hand if you have alternatives and different ideas, why not give it a go. Take your time to let the tank cycle, then go for it and have some fun.
Personally Id use a little live rock and play around from there.
Im lucky living in Australia because from the right sources, live rock is not expensive, so Im more inclined to use it.
I think the main decision to be made is what you want to do in the way of aquascaping. If you like and can afford the live rock, use it. Many benefits as previously stated. On the other hand if you have alternatives and different ideas, why not give it a go. Take your time to let the tank cycle, then go for it and have some fun.
Personally Id use a little live rock and play around from there.
Im lucky living in Australia because from the right sources, live rock is not expensive, so Im more inclined to use it.
I'm had the same thoughts regarding the importance of "real" live rock. My dream is to have a large reef in my new home, so at the start of this year I started out with some smaller tanks to experiment what works and what doesn't. Thus far, I've had extremely good rock using massive amounts of "real" live rock for filtration. I also have to admit that my coralline algae growth has been amazing; I am not sure if this is the good live rock seed, my water, both, or neither.
That said, I plan to setup a new small tank soon with 95% dead base rock and a few rocks for live rock seed. This will be to test how the base rock to live rock conversion is. If this works I can save myself a few thousand for live rock costs in a bigger tank not to mention have a cleaner conscious regarding the harvesting. Currently good live rock is $4.99/lb, if I anticipate a large system, that is 300lbs in the display, perhaps 200 in the sumps, for 500 * $4.99 for $2,495. I recently bought base rock that average $1.40/lb shipped, that is $700 for the same setup.
Experience is limited here, but I'm finding that live rubble in my sump is giving me great water chemistry results. After doing all my research I am somewhat obsessed with an over amount of live rock filtration, but time will tell if this works.
I'm sure you have, but you might want to look into the DIY live rock threads here and perhaps have someone in the EU/nearby send you some live rock seeds via a fast shipping method. If it doesn't work, you've only lost time.
That said, I plan to setup a new small tank soon with 95% dead base rock and a few rocks for live rock seed. This will be to test how the base rock to live rock conversion is. If this works I can save myself a few thousand for live rock costs in a bigger tank not to mention have a cleaner conscious regarding the harvesting. Currently good live rock is $4.99/lb, if I anticipate a large system, that is 300lbs in the display, perhaps 200 in the sumps, for 500 * $4.99 for $2,495. I recently bought base rock that average $1.40/lb shipped, that is $700 for the same setup.
Experience is limited here, but I'm finding that live rubble in my sump is giving me great water chemistry results. After doing all my research I am somewhat obsessed with an over amount of live rock filtration, but time will tell if this works.
I'm sure you have, but you might want to look into the DIY live rock threads here and perhaps have someone in the EU/nearby send you some live rock seeds via a fast shipping method. If it doesn't work, you've only lost time.
Forgot to mention in my post - if you're considering live rock for the activity on the rock and not the shape/size of it itself, you probably are better off ordering smaller rocks that have a higher surface area to weight ratio than larger ones. Live rubble and nano-rock has much more of these things we like than a 80lb live rock, at least in my understanding. So - it might be good to order a lot of base rock combined with some rubble live rock to seed.
ozadars
New member
Well, no doubt bioballs or other artificial biological filter items are unnecessary for a tank with live rocks and many people advice not to use bioballs because they keep detritus on them. However, IMO "real liverocks" keep MUCH more detritus in their holes and under them compared to bioballs.
IMO, the best filtration might be;
- Rocks, which should not be porious and not too much, as less as possible. Home made rocks can also be used.
- Algae eaters to keep the algae cycle in balance
- Detrivores to eat the detritus before they decompose
- A simple but big refugium for nitrate and phospate reduction
I believe this biologic filtration together will give the best results. But this guess is made logically. It should be experimented to say something certain.
IMO, the best filtration might be;
- Rocks, which should not be porious and not too much, as less as possible. Home made rocks can also be used.
- Algae eaters to keep the algae cycle in balance
- Detrivores to eat the detritus before they decompose
- A simple but big refugium for nitrate and phospate reduction
I believe this biologic filtration together will give the best results. But this guess is made logically. It should be experimented to say something certain.
elegance coral
They call me EC
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with ozadars on two points.
First, the main problem with bioballs is that they are very efficient at what they were designed to do. Turn amonia into nitrate. They do this in a very 02 rich environment void of any denitrofacation. Rock and sand are capable of doing both resulting in an overall lower nitrate level. Detritus isn't that big a problem because most people use machanical filters before the bioballs. It could be said that detritus is more of a problem with sand and rock.
second, why would you use rock with no pores? Nothing could hide in it, denitrifiction could not take place, and it would just take up valuable water valume. A rock with no pores would act more like bioballs than good quality live rock.
I don't want to offend anyone, just respectfully disagreeing.
First, the main problem with bioballs is that they are very efficient at what they were designed to do. Turn amonia into nitrate. They do this in a very 02 rich environment void of any denitrofacation. Rock and sand are capable of doing both resulting in an overall lower nitrate level. Detritus isn't that big a problem because most people use machanical filters before the bioballs. It could be said that detritus is more of a problem with sand and rock.
second, why would you use rock with no pores? Nothing could hide in it, denitrifiction could not take place, and it would just take up valuable water valume. A rock with no pores would act more like bioballs than good quality live rock.
I don't want to offend anyone, just respectfully disagreeing.
ozadars
New member
Hi there,
Well, I believe the detritus that fills the holes, pores of the rocks and that stuck under the rock creates more nitrate than the denitrification takes. Thats why I said a poreless rock.
In the system I told, there will be minimum detritus and rocks & sand will do the nitrification whereas refugium will deal with nitrate. Ofcourse I am talking about biological filtrastion. Additional PS and carbon would make it better.
Well, I believe the detritus that fills the holes, pores of the rocks and that stuck under the rock creates more nitrate than the denitrification takes. Thats why I said a poreless rock.
In the system I told, there will be minimum detritus and rocks & sand will do the nitrification whereas refugium will deal with nitrate. Ofcourse I am talking about biological filtrastion. Additional PS and carbon would make it better.
DouglasTiede
Premium Member
speaking of rock, so remind me why is volcanic rock bad? Like the volcanic rock used in garden beds for decorations.. Too many heavy minerals????
elegance coral
They call me EC
Yes, it is the fear of leeching minerals into the water. I used one in a 55 gal tank before with no side affects. There was a hole in the middle of the rock where I placed an elegance coral. The coral grew to cover the rock and fether dusters and sponges grew all over it. It worked for me but that is not to say it is a good idea.
boxfishpooalot
Active member
if you think about live rock as living.... its really not compared to the surface area of a growing coral. The coral will take up much more N,P than any live rock would imo. Macro algae would be much better than live rocks.
Im really starting to think that live rock can contribute to alot of problems without the necessary biology to deal with organic nutrients trapped on and inside the rocks. Not only the organic but inorganic, such as calcium phosphate.
I dont think rock is need at all once bacteria cover the glass , and algae or macro is growing.
Im really starting to think that live rock can contribute to alot of problems without the necessary biology to deal with organic nutrients trapped on and inside the rocks. Not only the organic but inorganic, such as calcium phosphate.
I dont think rock is need at all once bacteria cover the glass , and algae or macro is growing.
elegance coral
They call me EC
You are correct. We do not need LR. People were keeping marine tanks for years before they started using LR. There are however many benefits to using LR. Everyone is correct that LR produce and harbor detritus. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Detritus is the engine that runs the food chain in our systems. It only becomes a problem when we don't set up and maintain our systems correctly. With adequate flow arround and through the rockwork, skimming, and an aged refuge, together with some maintenance detritus and nitrate shouldn't ever become a problem. Just my opinion.
ozadars
New member
It shouldnt but it does in my newbie tanks. Detritus is definately essential for corals and filter feeders however the detritus cycle in the nature is way too perfect for us to copy which causes either excess or deficient detritus level.
Additionally, the detritus that stuck up in and under the rocks are not easily removed by high flow which doesnt have any benefit for corals as they are not in the water coloumn. Thats why rocks without pores is ideal in my opinion.
Additionally, the detritus that stuck up in and under the rocks are not easily removed by high flow which doesnt have any benefit for corals as they are not in the water coloumn. Thats why rocks without pores is ideal in my opinion.
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