livestock trouble

[Dave VG]

Leave the 3 in at this point and try to keep them eating. There comes a time when less stress is better. I think you are at that point Steve. Fresh water dips and medication are good when the problem is first found and the fish are still relatively healthy. You have done a commendable job trying to save these fish. Again good luck to you.

 

[Blugobi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12701932#post12701932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SPN
George, Please help me out with the following statement.. "what ever pathogen is running thru your tank is obviously a deadly one, but once all the fish are gone it will go dormant, but may always be present with in your system. With that said if you should have any survivors, keep them in QT for 6 weeks or longer if you can"

What I meant is that what ever pathogen causing this big die off is definatly strong one. If you water parameters are as you posted, then I find it must have been something that was in the system that you bought. It may have been dormant for awhile and the moved caused it to rear its ugly head again...with out getting an actual "Autopsy" done, you may never know. There are many unwanted pathogens in all our systems, but like humans, stress can cause you to get sick and even the commen cold can kick your but...for lack of a better anology. Long story short, you have dealt with a situation that could hit anyone, new or seasond and it appears you did your best to save what you could, so don't feel as if you did anything wrong. I would say if the three fish in your tank are still alive and seem to be pulling thru, let them be and take your time and bring them back up to health....wait for 6weeks or better before you add any new fish.

Good luck and if you need anything, give me a shout. I'm in your neighborhood daily......

Geo

 

[silkchaos]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12706169#post12706169 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Blugobi
I'm in your neighborhood daily......

Geo

Steve, sounds like you have your own personal stalker!

 

[drbronx]

It's imperative that you get the remaining fish out of the 210 so that you can start a eight week fallow period. The parasites (ich or oodinium) require a host to maintain a lifecycle. Without hosts, they essentially cycle themselves out of existance. The faster you accomplish this, the quicker you can start to repopulate the display. Place the live rock into a tupperware tub if you have to so you can get to the fish. The notion that patyhogens are always remain in the system even when not symptomatically visible is disputed. Some research has shown absolutely no remaining dormant cysts after an a period of time without any symptom outbreaks. The consensus seems to be about one year. Be that as it may, it remains imperative to maintain stable environmental conditions to maintain good long term fish health.

 

[frankandmaura]

Wow...Steve so sorry to hear the bad news best of luck saving the rest of them...

 

[Blugobi]

Steve,

After some further reading, I am inclined to agree with Dr. B...get the surviors out an QT if possible...if I remember you have 5' UV that came with that 210, incorporate that into your QT tank and that will help to get rid of any unwanted critters in the water colum. Just out of curiosity, what visible signs of sickness are they showing other than shallow breathing.... are there any leasions, sores, parasites???

Geo

 

[SPN]

What timing,... I was just thinking that I probably needed to get the remaining fish out of the 210 in order to have a better chance of ending this cycle and was about to post that question. I would think that one of the remaing fish was/is the carrier and needs to be treated.

Jerry, you mention a year time frame, can you please elaborate or throw me a link?

Will 8 weeks without fish be enough.....

While I realize this next question is very general, and might result in a lot of different opinions,......,
Please let me know how you would proceed If it were your system,

I have been pondering the benefits of a complete system teardown. Drain all the water, Wash all the sand, bake All live rock and then a complete restart

I would obviously like to start rebuilding the system, but do not want to rush it, nor wait longer than needed to be safe.

Thank you

Steve

 

[SPN]

Hi George,

I really do not have a better description than what I posted in the Fish disease forum link on the first post in this thread...
Sorry...

 

[Dave VG]

I would wait it out the 6 to 8 weeks then start stocking again slowly with one fish. Wait 2 weeks. If all is well i would add another and repeat the process.

 

[drbronx]

Eight weeks fallow period is on the extremely safre side to keep a tank fallow. Four to six is probably OK but no problems should occur after eight weeks. Without a host, these organisms simply can't maintain their lifecycle. I would hate to see you completely break down your system.

 

[silkchaos]

WHile it seems superflous, I have to pretty much echo Jerry. 8 weeks should let everything die disease wise, but still allow you to maintain an "Active" tank - so you don't have to cycle. That allows you to try another fish and get back going again a little faster.

 

[tmz]

Most of what is written above refers to treatment and erradication of crytocaryon irritans which always gets most of the ink.

However, there are several other more deadly quite common pathenogens including flukes, amyloodinium and brooklynella and there are diffences in what works and doesn't. For flukes and brooklynella, you need formalin or prazi pro. For velvet hypo will not work and you need copper. If it is a resistant strain hypo may not work for ich either.
Here are a few reasons for the differences, briefly:

Velvet ( amyloodinium lives in a variety of environments including brackish water and other low sg areas so it has a high tolerance for lower sg.
Brooklynella does not have a free swimming or encysting phase;this protozoan multiplies by simple cell division on the fish and can spread very quickly( one tell tale sign is excessive mucous production).
Flukes live on the fish's skin and are not effected by copper.Many have noted failure against flukes with hypo as well.

The eight week time frame for ich and velvet is aprropriate but please know that some ich cysts have remained viable for as long as 72 days. Flukes and brooklynella can live on the fish but can spread. I don't know if they can remain dormant in a tank without fish beyond a few weeks but it seems unlikely.

I believe the one year reference is to the life cycle of a single strain of ich. In an untreated tank with hosts, a single strain of ich will likely expire after 34 reproductions which takes about 11 months( according to a study by Burgess and Mathews in 1995). This is believed to relate to cell aging.

When I can't tell what the disease is (very hard to differentiate velvet and broklynella for example), I use a formalin bath pre qt and then treat in qt with copper sulfate(14 days) and formalin(5 days). I use them at the same time in the qt tank. I also keep the salinity aof the qt tank a bit south of 1.020(1.018.1.020) to lessen the fish's workload in osmoregualtion.

Good Luck

 

[drbronx]

Very well informed summary TMZ!

 

[Dave VG]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12711523#post12711523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drbronx
Very well informed summary TMZ!

Ditto

 

[SPN]

ok,
So based on the post by Tom, (TMZ), I should wait a minimum of 72 days before adding any fish to the tank once the last three fish are removed.

Once the tank is fishless, How quickly should I proceed with regards to:

raising salinity? Nothing else other than rock and sand will remain in the 210. Not sure if the rock and sand are stil considered alive after the Hypo salinity.

Is it safe to re-connect the 180 to the common sump and 210?

Are the starfish, snails and Shrimp ok to leave in the 180?

 

[fatrip]

TMZ, while the tank is fallow for three months should he add dead shrimp so that the tank doesnt loose bacteria??? also would a huge ammonia spike kill the velvet cysts if we induced it onto the tank?

 

[tmz]

First, I don't necessarily think you need the 72 days 6 to 8 weeks is a 95% plus bet. if my tank was empty and I had a good place to keep my fish, I'd do the 72 . Otherwise , I would do 6 to 8weeks .

Ammonia is not a known treatment for amyloodinium (velvet). It is an algae( dinoflagellate that is motile) so I don't think it would.

After hyposalinity ,I don't think you will experience a full cycle. The bacteria adjust to the lower salinity and should come back quickly. Raise the salinity to normal levels over a week and you might even get back some pods.Perhaps some of the eggs survived. They seem to do that in live rock which suffers not only salinity changes but high ammonia and semi dry periods.

It seems to me that there will be plenty of die off in or on the rock for the bacteria to consume. Perhaps after a few weeks sprinkling in alittle food would be ok.

I'm a little confused about joining up the 180 and 210 at the sump . If one of those is the display with the infestation then the infestation will likely spread throughout the system. The infested system should be kept separate and fishless.

 

[SPN]

Originally Posted by TMZ

I'm a little confused about joining up the 180 and 210 at the sump . If one of those is the display with the infestation then the infestation will likely spread throughout the system. The infested system should be kept separate and fishless.

Tom, the System consists of a 210 and 180 plumbed to a common 100 gallon sump, with a 40 gallon fuge (the fuge is not hooked up yet) and a 5' 40W UV runs off of the sump.

The 210 was a FOWLR, and the 180 I planned as a mixed reef.
When we first noticed the trouble in the 210, we closed off the 180 in hopes that it had not already spread to the 2 clownfish in the 180. We were too late.

I am down to three fish, a Crosshatch trigger, a Squirrel fish and a yellow tang. Of those three only the squirrel fish was not eating as of Monday evening. They are currently in my old 75 that contains my last dose of quinine. My 75 was set up to my LFS specifications complete with HOB filtration ( not running carbon at the moment) and undergravel filtration.

My 210 is completely empty except for live rock and live sand
The 180 has liverock, 3 starfish and one cleaner shrimp remaining.

Originally Posted by TMZ

When I can't tell what the disease is (very hard to differentiate velvet and broklynella for example), I use a formalin bath pre qt and then treat in qt with copper sulfate(14 days) and formalin(5 days). I use them at the same time in the qt tank. I also keep the salinity aof the qt tank a bit south of 1.020(1.018.1.020) to lessen the fish's workload in osmoregualtion.

Not sure if quinine is doing the trick or not.
Anyone locally ever treat with Formalin and Copper sulfate and willing to provide some guidance?

Thank you

Steve

 

[Piazzon12]

Do not use copper in either of the main tanks if you ever want to keep a reef. It will kill all invertebrates, and remain in your rock, causing troubles down the road. It will be ok in the QT... just dont move rock back and forth. ALso, the QT will not be ok for corals and inverts afterward

 

[fatrip]

"ALso, the QT will not be ok for corals and inverts afterward"

as long as the substrate is removed and the water is changes and tank wiped out, there is no reason that the tank couldnt be used for corals and or inverts after wards.