livestock trouble
- Thread starter SPN
- Start date
St.james of reefdom
New member
I have never been a fan of Hypo-salinity ,I think it stresses ,stressed fish more and makes them more susceptible to harm. That said..
Formalin is now known as Formalin-3 it can usually be picked up at any good pet store or ordered online.. It is a pre mixed, it is a 37% solution of Formaldehyde.
This is a powerful oxidizer/chemical, when you use this considerably increase your aeration of the tank/water. Formaldehyde will deplete oxygen in your tank water, it scavenges Oxygen in a big way.
. It is best to use gloves when you are dosing also, granted it is diluted , but it still needs to be respected.
I would not treat a reef with this, because of the same type of things that copper will do. It will remain in residency within the live rock and sand.
If you are going to use Formalin-3, I would use it only in bare bottom QT..
When I had my cichlid business I would use it in my QT tanks when I would get in a shipment of wild caught African cichlids, it is a wonderful tool to have in the arsenal of fishkeeping.
If you want to use copper, you can try Coppersafe by Mardel Labs, it is a chelated copper and (relatively speaking) safer than regular copper sulfate
Cupramine is ionically balanced which is safer than chelate copper and regular copper sulfate,Cuprimine is an active chemically even at lower rates than chelated or plain copper sulfate.
You can use Poly-filter pads by Bio-Marine to remove the copper when you want to from the QT tank or Cuprisorb, I believe Seachem calls it.
I agree wiping your tank down with Vinegar should be sufficient to clean up the tank and safer chemically also. just my 2 cents
Formalin is now known as Formalin-3 it can usually be picked up at any good pet store or ordered online.. It is a pre mixed, it is a 37% solution of Formaldehyde.
This is a powerful oxidizer/chemical, when you use this considerably increase your aeration of the tank/water. Formaldehyde will deplete oxygen in your tank water, it scavenges Oxygen in a big way.
. It is best to use gloves when you are dosing also, granted it is diluted , but it still needs to be respected.
I would not treat a reef with this, because of the same type of things that copper will do. It will remain in residency within the live rock and sand.
If you are going to use Formalin-3, I would use it only in bare bottom QT..
When I had my cichlid business I would use it in my QT tanks when I would get in a shipment of wild caught African cichlids, it is a wonderful tool to have in the arsenal of fishkeeping.
If you want to use copper, you can try Coppersafe by Mardel Labs, it is a chelated copper and (relatively speaking) safer than regular copper sulfate
Cupramine is ionically balanced which is safer than chelate copper and regular copper sulfate,Cuprimine is an active chemically even at lower rates than chelated or plain copper sulfate.
You can use Poly-filter pads by Bio-Marine to remove the copper when you want to from the QT tank or Cuprisorb, I believe Seachem calls it.
I agree wiping your tank down with Vinegar should be sufficient to clean up the tank and safer chemically also. just my 2 cents
SPN
New member
Hi Jim, Where were you a few days ago... lol... always appreciate the advice I get on these forums.
After all I have subjected these three remaining fish to, Would you treat with Formalin-3.
And I was a little unclear your take on the Seachem Cupramine.
Do you suggest I use the Coppersafe by Mardel Labs instead?
Having never treated with copper before, any recommended reading prior to deciding if I will attempt this or not? Are the directions pretty simple and just test the water for copper, or is it much more involved?
After all I have subjected these three remaining fish to, Would you treat with Formalin-3.
And I was a little unclear your take on the Seachem Cupramine.
Do you suggest I use the Coppersafe by Mardel Labs instead?
Having never treated with copper before, any recommended reading prior to deciding if I will attempt this or not? Are the directions pretty simple and just test the water for copper, or is it much more involved?
Re formalin. There are at least two different concentrations of formalin on the market. Formalin 3 is a 3% solution, others are 37%. Be sure you know which one you have and dose accordingly. I once called home to get the dose to dip a fish at my friends lfs. the product atthe store did not have directions for a bath. My wife read the dose from the Formalin 3 (10ml per gallon) over the phone. Unfortunately the product in hand was 37%. The fish litteraly jumped out of th bucket
St.james of reefdom
New member
Steve,
I stand corrected Thank You Tom, Formalin is37% solution, Formalin -3 is 3%
nonetheless be careful with it...
My take on the copper in a QT tank I would use the cuprimine only if I had a test kit to monitor my levels.
Coppersafe is chelated so it will take longer for it to work, but like I said is "relatively safer" I would probably use the coppersfae , particularly because of the stress your fish have already been through. I would suggest you buy a copper test kit though regardless of which one you decide
Mardel labs directions are not bad. I is always a good idea to read as much as possible on any medicine or treatment prior to and even after for the next time downn the road..
I stand corrected Thank You Tom, Formalin is37% solution, Formalin -3 is 3%
nonetheless be careful with it...
My take on the copper in a QT tank I would use the cuprimine only if I had a test kit to monitor my levels.
Coppersafe is chelated so it will take longer for it to work, but like I said is "relatively safer" I would probably use the coppersfae , particularly because of the stress your fish have already been through. I would suggest you buy a copper test kit though regardless of which one you decide
Mardel labs directions are not bad. I is always a good idea to read as much as possible on any medicine or treatment prior to and even after for the next time downn the road..
St.james of reefdom
New member
I would be interested in seeing a tank that was used in copper treatment and then only the Poly-bio marine poly -filter pad added to the tank.
Tested prior to adding the poly-filter and then tested at regular intervals afterward with the addition of the Poly-filter... I might have to do this and see what the results are, I am wondering if the copper would be extracted from the tank completely.
Tested prior to adding the poly-filter and then tested at regular intervals afterward with the addition of the Poly-filter... I might have to do this and see what the results are, I am wondering if the copper would be extracted from the tank completely.
SPN
New member
The Tang and crosshatch are eating, while the squirrels eyes are protruding and he is not eating.
I asked T to call around this morning for the cupramine, and she ended up at CC . She was told that while they had Seachem Cupramine, they did not have a copper test kit that would detect it. They sold her Copper Power and a Marine aquariums test lab Copper(CU) kit.
Does what CC stated make sense? Should I go ahead and use the Copper Power? (it claims to be the safest copper treatment available)
Vince and Carol seemed split on the use of copper when we discussed it last evening.
Thank you
I asked T to call around this morning for the cupramine, and she ended up at CC . She was told that while they had Seachem Cupramine, they did not have a copper test kit that would detect it. They sold her Copper Power and a Marine aquariums test lab Copper(CU) kit.
Does what CC stated make sense? Should I go ahead and use the Copper Power? (it claims to be the safest copper treatment available)
Vince and Carol seemed split on the use of copper when we discussed it last evening.
Thank you
St.james of reefdom
New member
Steve for the Cardinal you can take 2 approaches. first is to treat the fish with Maracyn + TriSulfa together. The Maracyn contains B vitamins which help fish that are not eating as well as treat the bacterial infection in the fish.
OR
second treat the cardinal with Maracyn-plus, this also has B vitamins for the Cardinal but it includes two antibiotics ,Trimethoprin and Sulfanomide.
Read the directions carefully this is much easier on the fish than copper.You will have to use a full treatment though.. I would treat with the Maracyn-plus, this takes away the need for a copper test kit and should be a bit easier on your mind.
OR
second treat the cardinal with Maracyn-plus, this also has B vitamins for the Cardinal but it includes two antibiotics ,Trimethoprin and Sulfanomide.
Read the directions carefully this is much easier on the fish than copper.You will have to use a full treatment though.. I would treat with the Maracyn-plus, this takes away the need for a copper test kit and should be a bit easier on your mind.
Yes it makes sense. I don't know of a test kit for chelated copper products. Since they relaease slowly to maintain a certain level of copper ,other than the dosing measure it's hard to tell how much is in there, particularly if you use any mediia for denitrification which could absorb some. It's harder to overdose a chelated product but harder to measure it and to be certain you have a theraputic level,I think,unless you trust the manufacturer. That's why I use the straight forward copper sulfate type. The brand I use is Sea Cure but many others consist of Copper sulfate. I have not had experience with the other products but have read that Cupramine is very good and I intend to try it down the road if I need to ,which I hope never happens but probably will.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12727925#post12727925 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SPN
The Tang and crosshatch are eating, while the squirrels eyes are protruding and he is not eating.
I asked T to call around this morning for the cupramine, and she ended up at CC . She was told that while they had Seachem Cupramine, they did not have a copper test kit that would detect it. They sold her Copper Power and a Marine aquariums test lab Copper(CU) kit.
Does what CC stated make sense? Should I go ahead and use the Copper Power? (it claims to be the safest copper treatment available)
Vince and Carol seemed split on the use of copper when we discussed it last evening.
Thank you
SPN
New member
All three are now eating and the Tang and Crosshatch seem to be looking better. They are still in the 75 gallon with the quinine, and I have not treated these fish with copper yet.
One new development to report
The Squirrel Fish has developed protruding eyes, and now has a rather large "growth/sack" protruding from the top of one eye socket.
Thoughts?
One new development to report
The Squirrel Fish has developed protruding eyes, and now has a rather large "growth/sack" protruding from the top of one eye socket.
Thoughts?
St.james of reefdom
New member
Treat the Squirrel fish with the med options I wrote for the cardinal..
Popeye or Exothalmia is a bacterial disease which builds fluid behind the eye , in turn if untreated pushes the eye out of the socket and eventually the fish goes blind. My thought is the sack will disappear eventually as the treatmentdoes it 's job.
Popeye or Exothalmia is a bacterial disease which builds fluid behind the eye , in turn if untreated pushes the eye out of the socket and eventually the fish goes blind. My thought is the sack will disappear eventually as the treatmentdoes it 's job.
SPN
New member
anyone see any reason not to follow Kelly's advise here?
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic87040-10-1.aspx
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic87040-10-1.aspx
Piazzon12
New member
In my experience with disease (which may be only limited to pop-eye and Ich) I have always chosen not to treat, and try to feed best I can, and keep pristine water conditions. Catching/netting and moving a fish to a new tank (which it would then again need to acclimate to ) in my opinion, is a huge source of stess, and can cause more harm than good. In both cases the Ich (twice) and Popeye subsided on their own. I know this may not be helpful, and certain issues may require treatment, but it's just my opinion
Adam
Adam
It's good advice from a well respected fishkeeper.
I personaly am,however, wary of the trend toward increasing lengths of fresh water dips from a standard of no more than 5 minutes to current trends for 10 to 30minutes. The osmotic pressure on the fish for this length of time may do unseen and not readily apparent damage to the organs and internal chemistry and cause significant stress. It also may not be effective against all of the common parasitic infections, particulary velvet (amyloodinium) which survives in a braod range of salinities in nature ,some as low as 3 ppt.So strains of this parasite may be more resistant to the osmotic shock of a fresh water dip than the fish itself.
Copper is very effective against cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and amyloodinium(velvet) both of which have a life cycle with a free swimming stage susceptable to copper. But copper is not effective against brooklynella which lives on the skin of the fish and multiplies quickly by cell division.
Another potential killer flukes will dislodge in a fresh water dip but the eggs on the skin of fish will likely survive it.
I have two fish in quarantine now . Both displayed symptoms very similar to those you described. Most striking was the excessive mucous production. I could not with my very limited diagnostic skills determine if it was brooklynella, velvet , flukes, crptocaryon or a combination.
I treated with a formalin(Formalin 3) bath of 45 minutes to force whatever parasites were not embeded in the fish to to dislodge and to knock down any fungal infections that may have been starting.
The fish were then placed in qt with a moderately low salinity of 1.019 to make it easier for them to regulate their hydration ; not as a treatment.
I added copper sulfate (Sea Cure) to the qt and Formalin. The copper will be dosed for 14 days; the formalin for 5 days. The fish will be qt d for 4 weeks after treatment.
The Formalin will dislodge parasites, treat any brooklynella or flukes that may be there. The copper will treat the velvet and ich.
Both fish are doing well so far.
I personaly am,however, wary of the trend toward increasing lengths of fresh water dips from a standard of no more than 5 minutes to current trends for 10 to 30minutes. The osmotic pressure on the fish for this length of time may do unseen and not readily apparent damage to the organs and internal chemistry and cause significant stress. It also may not be effective against all of the common parasitic infections, particulary velvet (amyloodinium) which survives in a braod range of salinities in nature ,some as low as 3 ppt.So strains of this parasite may be more resistant to the osmotic shock of a fresh water dip than the fish itself.
Copper is very effective against cryptocaryon irritans (ich) and amyloodinium(velvet) both of which have a life cycle with a free swimming stage susceptable to copper. But copper is not effective against brooklynella which lives on the skin of the fish and multiplies quickly by cell division.
Another potential killer flukes will dislodge in a fresh water dip but the eggs on the skin of fish will likely survive it.
I have two fish in quarantine now . Both displayed symptoms very similar to those you described. Most striking was the excessive mucous production. I could not with my very limited diagnostic skills determine if it was brooklynella, velvet , flukes, crptocaryon or a combination.
I treated with a formalin(Formalin 3) bath of 45 minutes to force whatever parasites were not embeded in the fish to to dislodge and to knock down any fungal infections that may have been starting.
The fish were then placed in qt with a moderately low salinity of 1.019 to make it easier for them to regulate their hydration ; not as a treatment.
I added copper sulfate (Sea Cure) to the qt and Formalin. The copper will be dosed for 14 days; the formalin for 5 days. The fish will be qt d for 4 weeks after treatment.
The Formalin will dislodge parasites, treat any brooklynella or flukes that may be there. The copper will treat the velvet and ich.
Both fish are doing well so far.
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