jamesbaur13
Apsiring Alhcohlolic
Thanks much b0b
Living With Ich... any advice?
- Thread starter jamesbaur13
- Start date
MrTuskfish
Team RC
I think just about every long-term successful SW hobbyist is a QT user......or will be. There is plenty of documentation concerning the tremendous turnover in our hobby and it isn't because of fish allergies. I'd bet the farm the failure to religiously use a QT is at the top of the reasons why. On the plus side; there sure is a lot of cheap equipment, especially for beginners, always available on Craig's list. At any given time, at least 2/3 of the problems on the disease section of the RC forum could have been avoided with a QT.
Oh yeah, what is the "natural" approach' to ich control. Nothing about our hobby is natural. Artificial sea water, lighting, skimming, filtration, wave makers, moon lights, unnatural tankmates,vitamins, additives, foods, etc., etc. A fish on the reef, with its zillions of gallons of water, may get a parasite once in a while; subjecting him to the numbers of parasites in a 40 cubic foot (or whatever) box is as unnatural as anything gets.
Oh yeah, what is the "natural" approach' to ich control. Nothing about our hobby is natural. Artificial sea water, lighting, skimming, filtration, wave makers, moon lights, unnatural tankmates,vitamins, additives, foods, etc., etc. A fish on the reef, with its zillions of gallons of water, may get a parasite once in a while; subjecting him to the numbers of parasites in a 40 cubic foot (or whatever) box is as unnatural as anything gets.
JDMhoes
New member
NEver have a QT tank. I properly acclimate my tangs(hippo/yellow). Its been over a good month. I was fighting ich for a good 3 weeks. I have a JBJ chiller that I dialed down to 75-76degrees, feed them really well(nori/pellets soaked in garlic) Have a small UV running. So far no signs of ICH on their fins or body. Knocks on wood*
Not a good idea. It may tootle along for a while, with the ich just waiting in the sandbed. UV doesn't get it, AFAIK: it's above bacterial size, and if a UV is not precisely matched to the pump/rate of flow, it won't work optimally in the first place, [ask me about UV and algae battles in my koi pond]. Most of all, while UVs that are timed 'right' are great on algae spores, they really don't seem to take out ich. My best advice for your particular situation is not to get another fish for about half a year, and even so do not get a tang, rabbit, damsel or angel (the most susceptible.) There is some remote chance of it dying out unhosted, but if you put in a target species under stress, you'll likely see it back again. The primary defense fish have against this pest is their slime coat, and the species I named don't have much of one. The garlic has been proven a mythic item: it may increase slime coat a bit, and stimulates appetite, both good, but it defends against ich about as well as it defends against vampires.
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MrTuskfish
Team RC
With the long power-outage in the NE; I wonder how many "managed ich" tanks are now "full-blown" ich tanks with the stress caused by the huge temp drops.
My biggest beef with not QT'ing is this: We all know the "animal police" monitor boards like this. So, when they read about entire tanks being wiped out due to Ich it just gives them more ammo to say we shouldn't be allowed to collect s/w fish in the first place. That could potentially affect all of us, whether you QT or not. And I'm sure when the scientific types read about people trying to treat a parasite with garlic (like it's a vampire or something) it makes us all look like a bunch of idiots.
And then there's the whole responsible ownership side of this equation. Most of these fish are plucked right out of the ocean, where I'm sure they'd rather stay. In fact, most of them die before you ever get a chance to see them in your LFS. Don't you have a moral obligation to the survivors to provide them with the best home possible? How can you do that when you don't QT and introduce them to another fish with a disease that can potentially kill them? It's like knowingly having unprotected sex with a person that might have AIDS.
And then there's the whole responsible ownership side of this equation. Most of these fish are plucked right out of the ocean, where I'm sure they'd rather stay. In fact, most of them die before you ever get a chance to see them in your LFS. Don't you have a moral obligation to the survivors to provide them with the best home possible? How can you do that when you don't QT and introduce them to another fish with a disease that can potentially kill them? It's like knowingly having unprotected sex with a person that might have AIDS.
My experience with ich...OK....did not quarantine, got ich, killed some, some seemed OK, read some posts about "they'll be fine" got hopefull about that, so let it be until I tried adding another fish, dead and covered in spots quickly. Bottom line here is... if you have ich it must be treated and eradicated using tried and true methods, it will not go away on it's own. The only thing I may argue on this forum is that I only did hypo and left the tank fallow for 5 weeks. That was well over 1 1/2 years ago and I've had no sign of ICH since. I recently combined my tanks into a 120g and I'm proud to say my tank is ICh free and will continue to be and if I ever add another fish you bet it will be quarantined.... I'm not going thru that ever again. Hypo works great, less stress on your fish, not easy for you but if you care about your finned friends you need to do this.
fishyness,
Your experience with/ without qt is echoed by many.
To the finer points:
Hypo is a fine treatment but not always effective,ime. There are reisistant strains;some crptocaryon adjusts to brackish water within a generation and a generation turns over quickly. These strains seem to appear ever more frequently in the hobby. Prolonged exposure(5 to 8 weeks) to low sg may also have longterm effects on internal organs like the kidneys. Care needs to be taken not to drop sg too far. Below 1.008 will be less than the fish's internal sg and will cause a loss of homeostasis since the fish can osmoregulte to sgs lower than it's own.I think hypo is fine much of the time if it's done long enough and carefully . Sometimes it fails andthe ich starts to show up once the sg is adjusted upwards.
Copper is quicker(14 days) but there are issues with some fish and reported sensitivity.Overdosing or mixing a bound copper like cupramine with an ammonia detoxifier causes serious toxicity.
I like tank transfer. No meds; quick(12 days). Easy to deal with ammonia since the tank is used for only 3 days and detoxifier can be used if needed unlike with some copper meds. A quick and gentle capture and transfer of the fish to a tank with matched water is easy in a relatively bare qt tank, especially when you drop the water level first. It takes a little work and some extra salt water but it's not as hard as I originally thought.
Each his own on method . I've tried all 3 with variable success in treatments and prophylactically for new specimens.
Good luck
Your experience with/ without qt is echoed by many.
To the finer points:
Hypo is a fine treatment but not always effective,ime. There are reisistant strains;some crptocaryon adjusts to brackish water within a generation and a generation turns over quickly. These strains seem to appear ever more frequently in the hobby. Prolonged exposure(5 to 8 weeks) to low sg may also have longterm effects on internal organs like the kidneys. Care needs to be taken not to drop sg too far. Below 1.008 will be less than the fish's internal sg and will cause a loss of homeostasis since the fish can osmoregulte to sgs lower than it's own.I think hypo is fine much of the time if it's done long enough and carefully . Sometimes it fails andthe ich starts to show up once the sg is adjusted upwards.
Copper is quicker(14 days) but there are issues with some fish and reported sensitivity.Overdosing or mixing a bound copper like cupramine with an ammonia detoxifier causes serious toxicity.
I like tank transfer. No meds; quick(12 days). Easy to deal with ammonia since the tank is used for only 3 days and detoxifier can be used if needed unlike with some copper meds. A quick and gentle capture and transfer of the fish to a tank with matched water is easy in a relatively bare qt tank, especially when you drop the water level first. It takes a little work and some extra salt water but it's not as hard as I originally thought.
Each his own on method . I've tried all 3 with variable success in treatments and prophylactically for new specimens.
Good luck
hvacman250
New member
So all you do is transfer the fish every 3rd morning from one tank to another?
So set-up tank/add fish, 3rd day, 6th day, 9th day, then 12th day they are clean?
I did read nets arent advised. Just scoop with a container or hands? Is it OK to transfer some water from previous tank?
If Amquel or Prime can be used, this seems like the perfect option for me. It just seems too easy! LOL
I transfer with tupperware containers with virtually no water. Yes, tank transfer works well. Remember that doing so in the morning is best.
Yes morning is better since the protomonts usually leave the fish in the middle of the night .
I use a net sometimes but prefer a cup and my hand pouring off as much water as possible ; no hands for fish that hurt though.. The protomonts will likely be on surface areas anyway . If you happen to pick one up in the transfer , it should be abandoned in the next transfer before tomites hatch in any case but I still do the best I can to limit transferring water.
If you look at the timing of the parasites lifecylce it would probably work with 3 72 hour stays . The fourth is insurance.
I use only two tanks. When I move the fish to the second I dry the first and all equipment overnight before refilling it , and so on.Ich likes wet.Typically, I'll set the towellled off tank upside down on a couple of salt bucket lids to let it completely drain and dry. I'll lay out the filter, heater, etc. and run a fan on it. Two or three smaller fish( clowns, anthias and so on do fine in a 10 g. For somewhat larger fish a 20 g works for me. I have larger vacant tanks if a fish needs to be medicated for another disease or held for a longer period.
May not be everyone's choice but I like this method.
I use a net sometimes but prefer a cup and my hand pouring off as much water as possible ; no hands for fish that hurt though.. The protomonts will likely be on surface areas anyway . If you happen to pick one up in the transfer , it should be abandoned in the next transfer before tomites hatch in any case but I still do the best I can to limit transferring water.
If you look at the timing of the parasites lifecylce it would probably work with 3 72 hour stays . The fourth is insurance.
I use only two tanks. When I move the fish to the second I dry the first and all equipment overnight before refilling it , and so on.Ich likes wet.Typically, I'll set the towellled off tank upside down on a couple of salt bucket lids to let it completely drain and dry. I'll lay out the filter, heater, etc. and run a fan on it. Two or three smaller fish( clowns, anthias and so on do fine in a 10 g. For somewhat larger fish a 20 g works for me. I have larger vacant tanks if a fish needs to be medicated for another disease or held for a longer period.
May not be everyone's choice but I like this method.
I use a small hang on the back filter on one and a bubble up sponge filter. Other equipment is : pvc pieces for resting / hiding spots and an an airstone .
If I have a fish that needs sand to sleep in a tupperware bowl of sand is added , fresh at each transfer.
These are uncyled tanks using newly mixed water aged overnight.
I like to add seeded sponge pieces from the sump( system is disease free) if I have them but more often than not I don't and even without any cycled media there is no significant ammonia buildup over the 3 day period with 2x per day light feeding.
I do not use display tank water since it would do nothing for cycling and carries an organics/nutrient load from the the display without out the biofilter of the display . A litle Ammolocko r Prime is added just in case.
If I have a fish that needs sand to sleep in a tupperware bowl of sand is added , fresh at each transfer.
These are uncyled tanks using newly mixed water aged overnight.
I like to add seeded sponge pieces from the sump( system is disease free) if I have them but more often than not I don't and even without any cycled media there is no significant ammonia buildup over the 3 day period with 2x per day light feeding.
I do not use display tank water since it would do nothing for cycling and carries an organics/nutrient load from the the display without out the biofilter of the display . A litle Ammolocko r Prime is added just in case.
jamesbaur13
Apsiring Alhcohlolic
OT question...
As far as sanitizing goes I typically use scalding hot tap water (I don't know the temp, but it is painful) my guess is it is in excess of 150 degrees.
I soak a rag with it an scrub over all areas at least 3 times.
In addition all decor and equipment get placed into a bucket of scalding hot tap water and the pump is run for a minimum of 15 mins.
Once all is scrubbed, I wipe completely dry with a cloth and let it stand for approx 15mins.
I feel it's sufficient enough, but I was wondering how you all felt about it.
As far as sanitizing goes I typically use scalding hot tap water (I don't know the temp, but it is painful) my guess is it is in excess of 150 degrees.
I soak a rag with it an scrub over all areas at least 3 times.
In addition all decor and equipment get placed into a bucket of scalding hot tap water and the pump is run for a minimum of 15 mins.
Once all is scrubbed, I wipe completely dry with a cloth and let it stand for approx 15mins.
I feel it's sufficient enough, but I was wondering how you all felt about it.
I don't know if the hot water for 15 mins will kill the cysts or not. Seems like it would but haven't seen anything on it. Drying them out will. I follow the techiniques outlined in the studies i've read on it , ie dryness. Just wiping it down and rinsing it with normal temp tap water,towling it offf and letting it dry thoroughly works. It has also been noted that 3 hours in freshwater will kill them by a trusted source but I haven't seen evidence on that one. Besides , for me it's easier to just empty it wipe it and let it dry overnight.
If you mean "sanitizing" broader than ich, it depends on what you want to remove or kill. Bleach and water destroys organics( bacteria,parasites, algae ,detritus ,dissolved organic compounds,spores. I imagine some of the spores etc might survive the hot water but don't know that for certain. . A wipe with vinegar should remove any copper sticking around .
If you mean "sanitizing" broader than ich, it depends on what you want to remove or kill. Bleach and water destroys organics( bacteria,parasites, algae ,detritus ,dissolved organic compounds,spores. I imagine some of the spores etc might survive the hot water but don't know that for certain. . A wipe with vinegar should remove any copper sticking around .
alaska clowns
New member
jamesbaur13, I just noticed this thread while searching for something else. I know this post is going to be flame-worthy. However, in response to your original question...
Here are (were) my methods of treating ich in my reef tank without removing the fish. I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, or the responsible reefkeeping way - just my experience when I wasn't able to pull the fish out of my DT. Just to clarify to any other readers, this is WHAT I DID and not necessarily what someone else should do. I had success, but that may have been due to the hardiness or the variety of fish that I have, or something else of which I am unaware. That being said:
1. Lots of variety of quality food. I fed AT LEAST twice a day, using either New Life Spectrum Thera A pellets or some sort of frozen food (pe mysis, spirulina brine, formula 1 & 2, etc.)
2. I soaked all food in the following: Selcon, Vitachem and Kent Marine Garlic Xtreme (I overdid the Kent's garlic - I probably used 3-4 times the recommended amount).
3. I used drops of Kent's garlic directly in the tank as recommended on the back of the bottle (so many drops per gallon).
4. I used a vitamin from the health food store called Beta - 1,3/ 1,6-D-Glucan from NOW Foods (100 mg Vcaps). I opened the capsules and mixed the powder in with the food and additives and let it soak a while before I fed. I also opened the capsules directly into my tank and found that my royal gramma would eat the chunks of powder directly.
5. Another food I fed - I used scissors to cut very small, bite-sized pieces of algae sheets (the kind tangs are supposed to like, but mine didn't). I soaked that in the food mixture, and the tangs would eat it.
6. I also crushed fresh garlic into the food mixture sometimes, and out of desperation, I also crushed fresh garlic into the tank itself. Wow, what a stink for anyone who doesn't like garlic!
I wish you success in treating your fish!
Here's my story about ich, if you're interested:
2 years ago (Nov 2009) I bought a used 55 gallon saltwater setup to upgrade from my 26 gallon. Before I transferred livestock from my 26 gallon, I thought I would stock the 55 gallon and thereby avoid a QT tank setup. I mail-ordered fish for the 55: royal gramma, dwarf angel, yellow clown goby. Clown goby died within days of being shipped, no visible signs of ich (although I'm not ruling out death by ich, but I think it probably had something to do with getting sucked into my overflow, and he just didn't recover).
It then seemed that a move out of the state was immanent for our family, so I thought that I'd go to Petco and buy the fish I always wanted, since I'd have to sell it all anyhow. I bought small yellow tang. I bought a small hippo tang. After intro of the hippo tang, the dwarf was dead in the morning (ich, or stress from the hippo?) After which every fish contracted ich: Royal Gramma, yellow tang, hippo tang.
Now I had a 55 gallon tank and a 26 gallon tank, and I knew that if I combined tanks, my original livestock from the 26 gallon would also contract ich.
I wasn't at a point where I could set up a third tank, and I was hesitant to have a tank with poison in it when I had toddlers around the house. So I followed the measures that I outlined for you.
My poor fish did suffer, but after the end of January 2010, not one of the three fish had any signs of ich (not even any scratching). I didn't combine tanks until the middle of June 2010. I added my 2 ocellaris, 1 red scooter blenny, and a bicolor blenny. I wouldn't have expected it of the blennys, but neither of my two clownfish have ever had symptoms of ich. The only fish I have added since is a midas blenny to replace my bicolor that I lost when I again upgraded from a 55 to a 65. Again, none of my fish has had a spot since. They are healthy and beautiful.
This weekend, I will be removing both tangs and giving them to a friend who has a larger tank. Will they be taking ich with them? When I add new fish to my tank, will they contract ich? I don't know. If it weren't considered hijacking your thread, maybe I'll post my results.
Again, I hope your fish pull through!
Here are (were) my methods of treating ich in my reef tank without removing the fish. I'm not saying this is the only way, or the best way, or the responsible reefkeeping way - just my experience when I wasn't able to pull the fish out of my DT. Just to clarify to any other readers, this is WHAT I DID and not necessarily what someone else should do. I had success, but that may have been due to the hardiness or the variety of fish that I have, or something else of which I am unaware. That being said:
1. Lots of variety of quality food. I fed AT LEAST twice a day, using either New Life Spectrum Thera A pellets or some sort of frozen food (pe mysis, spirulina brine, formula 1 & 2, etc.)
2. I soaked all food in the following: Selcon, Vitachem and Kent Marine Garlic Xtreme (I overdid the Kent's garlic - I probably used 3-4 times the recommended amount).
3. I used drops of Kent's garlic directly in the tank as recommended on the back of the bottle (so many drops per gallon).
4. I used a vitamin from the health food store called Beta - 1,3/ 1,6-D-Glucan from NOW Foods (100 mg Vcaps). I opened the capsules and mixed the powder in with the food and additives and let it soak a while before I fed. I also opened the capsules directly into my tank and found that my royal gramma would eat the chunks of powder directly.
5. Another food I fed - I used scissors to cut very small, bite-sized pieces of algae sheets (the kind tangs are supposed to like, but mine didn't). I soaked that in the food mixture, and the tangs would eat it.
6. I also crushed fresh garlic into the food mixture sometimes, and out of desperation, I also crushed fresh garlic into the tank itself. Wow, what a stink for anyone who doesn't like garlic!
I wish you success in treating your fish!
Here's my story about ich, if you're interested:
2 years ago (Nov 2009) I bought a used 55 gallon saltwater setup to upgrade from my 26 gallon. Before I transferred livestock from my 26 gallon, I thought I would stock the 55 gallon and thereby avoid a QT tank setup. I mail-ordered fish for the 55: royal gramma, dwarf angel, yellow clown goby. Clown goby died within days of being shipped, no visible signs of ich (although I'm not ruling out death by ich, but I think it probably had something to do with getting sucked into my overflow, and he just didn't recover).
It then seemed that a move out of the state was immanent for our family, so I thought that I'd go to Petco and buy the fish I always wanted, since I'd have to sell it all anyhow. I bought small yellow tang. I bought a small hippo tang. After intro of the hippo tang, the dwarf was dead in the morning (ich, or stress from the hippo?) After which every fish contracted ich: Royal Gramma, yellow tang, hippo tang.
Now I had a 55 gallon tank and a 26 gallon tank, and I knew that if I combined tanks, my original livestock from the 26 gallon would also contract ich.
I wasn't at a point where I could set up a third tank, and I was hesitant to have a tank with poison in it when I had toddlers around the house. So I followed the measures that I outlined for you.
My poor fish did suffer, but after the end of January 2010, not one of the three fish had any signs of ich (not even any scratching). I didn't combine tanks until the middle of June 2010. I added my 2 ocellaris, 1 red scooter blenny, and a bicolor blenny. I wouldn't have expected it of the blennys, but neither of my two clownfish have ever had symptoms of ich. The only fish I have added since is a midas blenny to replace my bicolor that I lost when I again upgraded from a 55 to a 65. Again, none of my fish has had a spot since. They are healthy and beautiful.
This weekend, I will be removing both tangs and giving them to a friend who has a larger tank. Will they be taking ich with them? When I add new fish to my tank, will they contract ich? I don't know. If it weren't considered hijacking your thread, maybe I'll post my results.
Again, I hope your fish pull through!
jamesbaur13
Apsiring Alhcohlolic
It's too early for me to say much as far as the countermeasures I've taken have worked, but (knock on wood) It seems to be going well so far.
What I have done thus far is basically try to implement a ghetto tank transfer method to my DT. As opposed to moving the fish, I'm more so trying to move the ich while in the trophont stage out of the DT. In no way is this 100% effective, nor would I ever expect it to be. Simply, this is a 2x's per week maintenance regimen that involves blowing off all the rocks and vacuuming the sand bed thoroughly.
In addition, not sure if this was stated in this thread or not... Ich, when in it's swimming stage, is a poor swimmer. Another phase to my countermeasures is kinda based off of this fact... It's simply to add flow to the substrate and rocks. I am basing this off my experience with being outdoors. You are less likely to get bit up by mosquito's on a windy day then a calm day. I'm not sure if it simply deters them, or if they make an effort and they fail to receive their blood meal. Also, Ich aren't mosquito's.
Of course these measures are coupled with keeping up a good diet for the fishes and a lot of crossed fingers.
What I have done thus far is basically try to implement a ghetto tank transfer method to my DT. As opposed to moving the fish, I'm more so trying to move the ich while in the trophont stage out of the DT. In no way is this 100% effective, nor would I ever expect it to be. Simply, this is a 2x's per week maintenance regimen that involves blowing off all the rocks and vacuuming the sand bed thoroughly.
In addition, not sure if this was stated in this thread or not... Ich, when in it's swimming stage, is a poor swimmer. Another phase to my countermeasures is kinda based off of this fact... It's simply to add flow to the substrate and rocks. I am basing this off my experience with being outdoors. You are less likely to get bit up by mosquito's on a windy day then a calm day. I'm not sure if it simply deters them, or if they make an effort and they fail to receive their blood meal. Also, Ich aren't mosquito's.
Of course these measures are coupled with keeping up a good diet for the fishes and a lot of crossed fingers.
The transfer method is always mentioned but rarely discussed. Thank you TMZ for sharing your experience. I am trying to follow it right now and will place my fish in QT after 12 days. My question is, Do you treat for anything else while doing the transfer method? It seems that this would treat Ich but not much else, so I'm considering treating with antibiotiics and for flukes.
I have 4 fish in qt I got yesterday;4 Tiera anthias/aka Resplendent anthias( psuedoanthias pulcherimis) and a six line wrasse( psuedocheilinus hexataenia). I started transfer treatment preventative treatment last night.
I do not add meds during or after this treatment. It is very effective against ich. I rely on observation for some of the other less frequently ocurring but still all too frequent serious diseases such as amyloodinium(velvet), brooklynella(brooklynellosis) and flukes.
Tank transfer may help velvet but the life cycle of this protoist ( arguably a protozoan or dinoflagellate) has a faster life cycle than ich and should be treated with copper or formalin. This killer will usually show up early on, ime.
Brooklynella(brooklynellosis) needs a formalin treatment. Usually evident early on.
Flukes need formalin baths or parziqauatel( prazi pro) treratments. Fish can look ok for a couple of weeks and then drop dead from a heavy tematode fluke infestation.
A qt period of 2 weeks or more in a larger cycled tank following tank transfer is a useful additional step , perhaps with a preventative prazi pro treament.
I do not add meds during or after this treatment. It is very effective against ich. I rely on observation for some of the other less frequently ocurring but still all too frequent serious diseases such as amyloodinium(velvet), brooklynella(brooklynellosis) and flukes.
Tank transfer may help velvet but the life cycle of this protoist ( arguably a protozoan or dinoflagellate) has a faster life cycle than ich and should be treated with copper or formalin. This killer will usually show up early on, ime.
Brooklynella(brooklynellosis) needs a formalin treatment. Usually evident early on.
Flukes need formalin baths or parziqauatel( prazi pro) treratments. Fish can look ok for a couple of weeks and then drop dead from a heavy tematode fluke infestation.
A qt period of 2 weeks or more in a larger cycled tank following tank transfer is a useful additional step , perhaps with a preventative prazi pro treament.
This weekend, I will be removing both tangs and giving them to a friend who has a larger tank. Will they be taking ich with them? When I add new fish to my tank, will they contract ich? I don't know. If it weren't considered hijacking your thread, maybe I'll post my results.
Fish that survive an infestation develop a partial immunity to the strain that infected them. Partial is a keyword. The parasite persists the tender hidden from view tissue of the nostirls, mouth and gills of these fish and can easily infect new nieghbors or breakout during a stress event like a move. Just one surving parasite can encyts and contribute hundreds in one life cycle. One study suggests that a single strain will expire in 11mos without introduction of a new strain but there are other studies that indicate a much longer persistence without sexual reproduction.
Fish that survive an infestation develop a partial immunity to the strain that infected them. Partial is a keyword. The parasite persists the tender hidden from view tissue of the nostirls, mouth and gills of these fish and can easily infect new nieghbors or breakout during a stress event like a move. Just one surving parasite can encyts and contribute hundreds in one life cycle. One study suggests that a single strain will expire in 11mos without introduction of a new strain but there are other studies that indicate a much longer persistence without sexual reproduction.
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