Long-term Ich Management
- Thread starter newaquarist
- Start date
I agree. His scientific explanation was perfectly stated. And it confirms that copper is absorbed by rock. However, it doesn't tell us when that rock can safely be used in the presence of corals/inverts again. That part of the equation is back to trial & error.
I did the same thing and had the same problem, but after going back and reviewing my Copper treatment I had made a mistake in not maintaining the copper level high enough for the durration of the treatment. If you don't maintain that level (I don't recall it has been to long) but when you test for copper it must stay above some number i will guess 10ppm or whatever it is.. if it goes below that you have effectivly started from scratch and need to continue the treatment as if it is the first day... hope that makes sense... good luck, been there bought the tshirt to many times.
Paul B
Premium Member
I probably said this and forgot, as I am old, but my tank had copper in it for about 10 years or so, (I forget that also) When the hobby started, my tank started and everything had ich, even ich had ich. So we had to keep copper in the tank at all times. We kept adding fish because our tanks were not very healthy, only freshwater foods were available and we didn't know what we were doing. But we knew we needed copper and if it were not for copper, even today, there would not be a salt water fish hobby. It is a poison as is aspirin, tylinol, Pepto Bismol, Viagra, hydrocortizone, Alka Seltzer, X lax, Robitusen PM, and every medication that works. It is the dosage that makes it poison. Anyway, after a few years my tank was able to support anemones and eventually corals and anything else I want to put in there, although I have not tried a manta ray. If it's tail wouldn't scratch my ceiling, I would try one. Copper is not nuclear waste and the fact that it comes out of rock means it gets removed from the water. Unless of course your rocks are made out of copper, that is a different story.
disc1
-RT * ln(k)
You could easily make a case that your best friend in a battle against copper would be a big outbreak of cyanaobacteria and fresh activated carbon. Some cyano produce proteins that bind up the copper and keep it in a non-toxic form. If it weren't for the cyanobacteria the ocean would be many times over the toxic level of copper and coral wouldn't grow. The reference for that is in the copper thread sticky in the Chem Forum. I know it's a post by me, I can't remember where. You'll have to look.
agnes66666
New member
you should not put any copper based meds. to the DT. I used cupramine, which is buffered copper, and can be easily removed from DT (rock,sand). I am already on 4th week curamine dosing to my DT ( of course I removed my corals and inverts). It bleached my rock...this is the only minus of it (at the moment). On Monday will be exact 4 weeks since achived 0.4 copper level ( i tested copper level every day), and 3 weeks since velvet is not visible on my angelfish and clowns. I will be removing copper using WC,carbon and cuprisorb.
Long-term Ich Management
Heres my advice.
1. Never Treat Ich with medication.
a. Copper is too risky if you dont measure it. Too little wont kill ich and too much will kill the
fish. It may also in some cases kill beneficial bacteria and most definitely inverts.
b. Copper harms to internal organs of fish over time
c. Reef safe meds may only be temporarily safe as they do have side affects on corals
2. Never Fallow Tank
a. Whats more boring than looking at LR and Corals for weeks only to have ich again after returning fish.
3. Buy online or at a trusted LFS.
a. i live in NY and there is this place in chinatown who has magnificent fish and who treats them very well.
Never saw a sick fish. I trust my fish will always be healthy
b. LiveAquaria.com may sell some pretty healthy fish although i never purchased from them.
4. Lastly, dont treat ich, treat the fish!
a. Don't waste time or money on killing Ich. There are 4 life stages, 2 of which are able to kill the Ich. Keep
your fish healthy by feeding garlic flakes, keeping stress minimal, adding stress coat per water change.
Ich is caused by a parasite that burrows itself in the fish slime coat, the healthier the fish, the thicker
the slime coat, this will allow the parasite to not get attached and die within 24 hours. Stress coat by
API will create a replica of this slime coat and reduce fish stress by 40%.
Heres my advice.
1. Never Treat Ich with medication.
a. Copper is too risky if you dont measure it. Too little wont kill ich and too much will kill the
fish. It may also in some cases kill beneficial bacteria and most definitely inverts.
b. Copper harms to internal organs of fish over time
c. Reef safe meds may only be temporarily safe as they do have side affects on corals
2. Never Fallow Tank
a. Whats more boring than looking at LR and Corals for weeks only to have ich again after returning fish.
3. Buy online or at a trusted LFS.
a. i live in NY and there is this place in chinatown who has magnificent fish and who treats them very well.
Never saw a sick fish. I trust my fish will always be healthy
b. LiveAquaria.com may sell some pretty healthy fish although i never purchased from them.
4. Lastly, dont treat ich, treat the fish!
a. Don't waste time or money on killing Ich. There are 4 life stages, 2 of which are able to kill the Ich. Keep
your fish healthy by feeding garlic flakes, keeping stress minimal, adding stress coat per water change.
Ich is caused by a parasite that burrows itself in the fish slime coat, the healthier the fish, the thicker
the slime coat, this will allow the parasite to not get attached and die within 24 hours. Stress coat by
API will create a replica of this slime coat and reduce fish stress by 40%.
DSPs
In Memoriam
I MI I I Here's my opinion on it and I know many agree and disagree but it works for me, the best thing to do if your fish gets ich is to leave the fish in the display tank and keep your hands and any traffic around the tank to a minimal other then feeding, Feed the fish really well with garlic based foods, Not because garlic cures ich or anything I just think it entices stressed fish to eat more which is important, Ich is not a big deal at all imo, It use to be until some long time reefers taught me to just relax and leave the fish alone and ever since I started doing that I have never lossed a fish, I'm even doing it right now as I just bought a hawk fish that has ich but I'm not worried I know he will be fine because I am not going to chase him down and stress him trying to take him out of the tank to do a treatment thatmay not work, when I came into this hobby I tried the hospital tanks copper meds, hypo and went fallow for 4 months and as soon as I put my fish back in the tank they instantly got ich again and I have friends that have done the same thing, Like the op said it even happen to him . Now Iv already went over this in another thread here and all the people already jumped on me about how I am giving bad advice but please just remember this is my opinion and experience nothing scientific it just works like others have said to and that's what I will stick to and recommend to people .remember I don't want to argue about this again I'm just answering the Origianl posters question, And trust me I have been around the block a time or 2 and have read all the articles on ich like I said I have tried everything recommended over the years and finally stopped losing fish when I stopped stressing them out.
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DSPs
In Memoriam
I 100 percent agree with you
DSPs
In Memoriam
Paul but we need you in some of these discussions! Haha,People bash me all the time because I believe in the methods you use and some of my own, they just throw all the scientific data at me that Iv seen before which doesn't help anything, I know what works for me. but really I understand why u probally don't get in the ich debates anymore I'm almost to that point as well
DSPs
In Memoriam
Lol! I agree
So, my curiosity is aroused. You work for a fish store, presumably for the four years you have been reefing. Does the fish store advocate your position?
MrTuskfish
Team RC
A sad, but relevant, current thread on the idea of managing, rather than advocating, ich. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2374906
I personally don't have a problem with those who practice management over eradication, so long as they understand the risks & everything. I don't think it's a good idea for noobs... because they have enough to learn without adding "battle fish parasites" to the list. As far as Paul B is concerned, I believe he has developed a system to keep his fish in "breeding condition" as the ultimate form of disease management. But this is an individual with extensive experience - he's probably tweaked & fined tuned his methods over the decades. I've read many of his posts & articles, and have learned much from him. But IMHO there's just no way to completely transfer all of that knowledge into written form.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
Something that is rarely mentioned in this ongoing debate, its almost taboo: that's the advantage of experience. Someone who has been in the hobby for many years has a much better chance of ''managing" ich than a newer hobbyist. Nothing snobby about it; but folks with a lot of experience can just spot potential problems and correct them before they become big problems. When ich is the topic; the OP is generally a newer hobbyist. Suggesting that this newer hobbyist to just use what amounts to advanced hobbyist techniques, knowledge, and just the "gut feeling" that comes with experience; is (IMO & IME) a big mistake. I do things all the time with this hobby, my other passion, and my profession (now retired) That I would never advise someone with little experience to try. Personally, I think "managed ich" will rise up and bite the hobbyist in the keester, sooner or later. Regardless of experience. With newer hobbyists; its almost a certainty.
Paul B
Premium Member
I don't manage it, eradicate it, bow down to it, treat it, read to it, euthanize it, harmonize with it, question it, tickle it, spray paint it, or pay attention to it. My fish are just not allowed to get it, so if they do, it's their problem.
I haven't seen it in over 35 years but I am sure it will bite me soon, this may be the year. :smokin:
But Tuskfish is correct. When I was a Noob (I was probably the only Noob at the time) my tank was such an ich magnet that I thought fish were supposed to have spots. :lol:
OK I am done (again) have a good time.
I haven't seen it in over 35 years but I am sure it will bite me soon, this may be the year. :smokin:
But Tuskfish is correct. When I was a Noob (I was probably the only Noob at the time) my tank was such an ich magnet that I thought fish were supposed to have spots. :lol:
OK I am done (again) have a good time.
Well, probably not the only Noob as I have been doing this a rather long time myself as we have previously discussed. But I agree, in general, that one develops a sense of what is happening in a tank that can only be acquired from doing it a long time.
Where I may be in disagreement is advocating that folks who are New to the Hobby can manage a tank in a manner similar to one who has been doing that for decades.
Yodeling
Premium Member
I purchased a mature tank recently, didn't add any of my own corals, fish, and a few weeks after the move, hippo got ich. Now, according to the seller, the last fish he added was 3 years ago, and some fish are over 5 years old. So, this leads me to believe that he's had ich in the tank for at least 3 years. I cannot confirm this, but I decided not to treat and instead wait and see what happens. I will report back from time to time. Although I've been in the hobby for a long time, I do not have prior ich experience, but I also generally don't like to do anything drastic as it usually leads to disaster. If I pulled my hippo out now and put him in "jail", I'm almost certain he would not survive. I'm sure there will be some who will feel this approach is not "viable", but I will learn my own lessons and post back to this thread.
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