Looking for those who DO NOT do water changes.
- Thread starter eznet2u
- Start date
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
For those interested, here is one of the articles by Randy:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
Ron...STomp
You may find some of the answers you were looking for (what is removed) in the article and the links referenced at the bottom of the article. The information will at least get you on the right track to being able to make a more informed decision, no matter what you decide is an appropriate export method.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php
Ron...STomp
You may find some of the answers you were looking for (what is removed) in the article and the links referenced at the bottom of the article. The information will at least get you on the right track to being able to make a more informed decision, no matter what you decide is an appropriate export method.
Hey eze,
Check out this link a tank on our forum here, I myself have just removed my skimmer and have been running that way for a month now and have also not done a water change. My tank has algae but my corals have never looked better
http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB2/viewt...0&postorder=asc&highlight=skimmerless&start=0
Check out this link a tank on our forum here, I myself have just removed my skimmer and have been running that way for a month now and have also not done a water change. My tank has algae but my corals have never looked better
http://www.masa.asn.au/phpBB2/viewt...0&postorder=asc&highlight=skimmerless&start=0
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
short term you may be ok, but in the long term you are going to need an efficient means of export. Going without a skimmer OR water changes is heading down the path to poor water quality.
Something that has not been touched on here is the depletion of needed nutrients and trace elements. Water changes do replinish the water as well as dilute the waste.
Something that has not been touched on here is the depletion of needed nutrients and trace elements. Water changes do replinish the water as well as dilute the waste.
CyanoMagnet
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13219863#post13219863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Just because one methodology becomes outdated, does not mean other will
Almost all methodologies become outdated and obselete over time, and I am not talking about reeftanks.
WOW!!!!
This is more intense than the DSB, BB debate....
Great bickering back and forth, throw in a third party. And we have some great reading....
After 20 years and using the no water change, and water change method. My vote goes to water changes...
After all pictures are worth a thousand words. So keep talking or start posting..
Bottom line, everyone's opinion of a successful reef is different....
Happy Reefing
This is more intense than the DSB, BB debate....
Great bickering back and forth, throw in a third party. And we have some great reading....
After 20 years and using the no water change, and water change method. My vote goes to water changes...
After all pictures are worth a thousand words. So keep talking or start posting..
Bottom line, everyone's opinion of a successful reef is different....
Happy Reefing
CyanoMagnet
New member
Good points by alot of people here.
Look I will speak from experience. Look at my name. Thats where nowater changes got me. But that was years ago.
My only problem with water changes is that they are so wastefull of resources.
If you live in NY as I do, you can not make any use of the waste RODI water ,save filling up some water balloons here and there for your kids.
So I have been search of a system that does not need water changes.
After years of search, I believe I have gotten as close as I can get.
I have done this with the use of...
Calcium reactor.
A good skimmer that skims heavy(leaning wet, skims 1 gallon a month, so there is my monthly water change).
Phosban reactor that runs carbon because phosphates are undetectable. (Carbon is a must, and if I had to run phosban, I would run carbon in another reactor).
Barebottom tank with excellent circulation that keeps waste circulating in the water column untill it can be taken out by heavy skimmig.
Hang on refugium with cheato and a DSB (good nutrtient export here on both, but it is only a small 15 gallon hangon refuge without alot of surface area and room for macro algae to grow).
Sulfur denitrator (korallin 1501). Man does this thing suck up nitrates.... It drips about 75 drips per minute which is roughly 40 gallons a month, and in a 85 netgallon tank is a large quantity).
It took me from 20 ppm nitrates to undetectable in 4 weeks without a water change.
HOWEVER AN IMPORTANT NOTE. RUNNING BOTH SULFUR DENITRATOR AND CALCIUM REACTOR CAN REALY DEPLETE YOUR TANK OF OXYGEN, LOWER ALK, LOWER PH. IN ORDER TO COMBAT THIS I DRIP BOTH REACTORS INTO OVERFLOWS AND ALLOW THEM TO DEGASS. I ALSO HAVE MY CALCIUM REACTOR INTAKE IN SULFUR DENITRATORS OVERFLOW.
I have a very small clean up crew (a few turbos, and a handfull of blue/red legs).
I have no nuisance algae or cyano(and have not for years).
I feed VERY heavy (I have to so the system does not strip of all nutrietns).
I add strontium, iodine, kalkwasser in my topoff water.
I add an amino acid supplement that also includes trace elements (coralife liquid gold +).
I add prodibio biodigest (just started using this product a month ago) weekly.
The only problem I have with my tank right now is something waterchanges cant do anything about... And its a big problem.
AEFW.
But that is not keeping my corals from coloring up and growing like mad.
I will post some before and after pictures later on.
Notice I do have export. Wet skimming, and cheato removal.
Look I will speak from experience. Look at my name. Thats where nowater changes got me. But that was years ago.
My only problem with water changes is that they are so wastefull of resources.
If you live in NY as I do, you can not make any use of the waste RODI water ,save filling up some water balloons here and there for your kids.
So I have been search of a system that does not need water changes.
After years of search, I believe I have gotten as close as I can get.
I have done this with the use of...
Calcium reactor.
A good skimmer that skims heavy(leaning wet, skims 1 gallon a month, so there is my monthly water change).
Phosban reactor that runs carbon because phosphates are undetectable. (Carbon is a must, and if I had to run phosban, I would run carbon in another reactor).
Barebottom tank with excellent circulation that keeps waste circulating in the water column untill it can be taken out by heavy skimmig.
Hang on refugium with cheato and a DSB (good nutrtient export here on both, but it is only a small 15 gallon hangon refuge without alot of surface area and room for macro algae to grow).
Sulfur denitrator (korallin 1501). Man does this thing suck up nitrates.... It drips about 75 drips per minute which is roughly 40 gallons a month, and in a 85 netgallon tank is a large quantity).
It took me from 20 ppm nitrates to undetectable in 4 weeks without a water change.
HOWEVER AN IMPORTANT NOTE. RUNNING BOTH SULFUR DENITRATOR AND CALCIUM REACTOR CAN REALY DEPLETE YOUR TANK OF OXYGEN, LOWER ALK, LOWER PH. IN ORDER TO COMBAT THIS I DRIP BOTH REACTORS INTO OVERFLOWS AND ALLOW THEM TO DEGASS. I ALSO HAVE MY CALCIUM REACTOR INTAKE IN SULFUR DENITRATORS OVERFLOW.
I have a very small clean up crew (a few turbos, and a handfull of blue/red legs).
I have no nuisance algae or cyano(and have not for years).
I feed VERY heavy (I have to so the system does not strip of all nutrietns).
I add strontium, iodine, kalkwasser in my topoff water.
I add an amino acid supplement that also includes trace elements (coralife liquid gold +).
I add prodibio biodigest (just started using this product a month ago) weekly.
The only problem I have with my tank right now is something waterchanges cant do anything about... And its a big problem.
AEFW.
But that is not keeping my corals from coloring up and growing like mad.
I will post some before and after pictures later on.
Notice I do have export. Wet skimming, and cheato removal.
second_decimal
Member
yeah tagging along 
not that i would stop doing water changes or anything.... i think that while methodologies do become obsolete over time, it is usually due to advancements in technology. i do not think that we are at a point currently where we have the required understanding and equipment for eliminating water changes. maybe when a more efficient nutrient export technology surpasses the skimmer as an item of choice will the no waterchange become a viable option for the general public. i know there are some advanced aquarists that are able to keep healthy systems w/o h2o changes, but for the general public it would take a advancement in technology.
jmo
not that i would stop doing water changes or anything.... i think that while methodologies do become obsolete over time, it is usually due to advancements in technology. i do not think that we are at a point currently where we have the required understanding and equipment for eliminating water changes. maybe when a more efficient nutrient export technology surpasses the skimmer as an item of choice will the no waterchange become a viable option for the general public. i know there are some advanced aquarists that are able to keep healthy systems w/o h2o changes, but for the general public it would take a advancement in technology.jmo
Last edited:
RonMidtownStomp
You can edit this?
Thank you BeanAnimal, that link was great. I went on to read an analysis of reef salt contents and I found the following month's articles, too. I can't say that it answered all of my questions since there are so many unknowns. It seems people abuse the term "trace elements" and it seems quite possible from what I read to be very successful long term without water changes if we dose correctly. It's still not clear to me what can't be exported with a good skimmer, carbon, and phosban.
They comment about copper in the food. Anyone know how much?
Ron
They comment about copper in the food. Anyone know how much?
Ron
RonMidtownStomp
You can edit this?
Re-reading what I wrote I want to make it more clear that my conclusion is that it's a whole lot safer to do water changes.
eznet2u
Active member
Soups On!!
Soups On!!
Here is the tank I am trying to replicate.
This is about the 3 year mark. The tank went SPS dominate shortly after picture was taken. I can not find the pictures of right before it was taken down. Gorgeous tank.
Please notice the lack of algae. It received natural sunlight for about 2 hours a day, if I'm not mistaken.
Soups On!!
Here is the tank I am trying to replicate.
This is about the 3 year mark. The tank went SPS dominate shortly after picture was taken. I can not find the pictures of right before it was taken down. Gorgeous tank.
Please notice the lack of algae. It received natural sunlight for about 2 hours a day, if I'm not mistaken.
saveafish
New member
Ok I hope I do NOT make enyone mad at me here. But even if one dont do water changes. They do but it is so suttle you dont notice it.
1.When you add new livestock you have to replace some saltwater back from the accumation process.
2. A skimmer over time will pull out some salt that has to be replaced.
3. when you change media. Some salt comes out. EX. socks. carbon, micro alga.
4. Water pulled out for testing.
It may only be a gallon here and there but you are still doing a water change.
1.When you add new livestock you have to replace some saltwater back from the accumation process.
2. A skimmer over time will pull out some salt that has to be replaced.
3. when you change media. Some salt comes out. EX. socks. carbon, micro alga.
4. Water pulled out for testing.
It may only be a gallon here and there but you are still doing a water change.
CyanoMagnet
New member
No , you are right. Its not neglegible. Overtime that would cause some effect and needs to be replaced. And another thing to keep in mind is that feeding food, other additives causes a rise in salinity.
So I think NO water changes are not possible... Maybe 1 water change a year? I think thats possible.
eznet2u
Active member
Ok, the main idea here is to find a commonality between tanks that can run for extended periods of time without regular water changes.
I agree that a very slow water change occurs as normal maintenance on the tank is performed. (Skimming, testing, etc.) This is unavoidable, and necessary.
I also understand that replacing 100% of the tank water every second would replicate a natural system. However impossible that would be to do...
I do not recommend NOT DOING WATER CHANGES...I just want to find out how/why some tanks can run successfully for a very long time without water changes.
Maybe by replicating the worst case scenario, we can learn something about the best case scenario. (Does that make sense?)
I agree that a very slow water change occurs as normal maintenance on the tank is performed. (Skimming, testing, etc.) This is unavoidable, and necessary.
I also understand that replacing 100% of the tank water every second would replicate a natural system. However impossible that would be to do...
I do not recommend NOT DOING WATER CHANGES...I just want to find out how/why some tanks can run successfully for a very long time without water changes.
Maybe by replicating the worst case scenario, we can learn something about the best case scenario. (Does that make sense?)
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
It is all about export. You simply need to provide means for nutrient export and/or organisms or mehanisms to store or change the nutrients.
Take a DSB for example... there is argument as to what happens in a DSB (conversion or simple storage) but we know a tank with a DSB can go longer without a water change than an SSB. In the end, it may come back to haunt you though.
Take a DSB for example... there is argument as to what happens in a DSB (conversion or simple storage) but we know a tank with a DSB can go longer without a water change than an SSB. In the end, it may come back to haunt you though.
I know many people doing water change on routine but other than those people what indications that tell you that you need to do water change? if nitrate is low (fuge or denitrator) water is clear (carbon filter?). I mean water change not top off including saltwater top off to conpensate for salt lost, I don't count these top offs as water changes.
CyanoMagnet
New member
I dont think anyone here is counting topoffs as water changes.
