Lost a couple dwarf angels over the past few weeks.... what's going on?

[JCareyETexas]

I lost a keyhole angel a couple weeks ago and then lost a coral beauty last night, really bummed out. Both specimens were "floated" with some of my tank water being added after 15 mins, then again after about 10, once again after about 5 then released. I do not add the water from the bag to my tank.
Both times the fish calmly swims down to the rockwork and finds a hiding spot. Everything seemed normal except the fish would not come out to eat.
So after a few days I find the fish listless on the bottom.
My water params seem fine, lots of inverts in the tank doing great (I always assumed inverts were supposed to be harder to keep than most fish).
Are there variables I'm unaware of that would cause angelfish to die in my tank?

Water params:
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: <5
SG: 1.023
pH: 8.3

 

[29reef]

I reccomend you set up a QT tank tank use that to first introduce your new fish and get them used to your water, feeding schedule, and lights. It's possible it's just bad fish, but more likely it's something else. Also many angels are reclusive when first introduced to the tank.

 

[NYCBOB]

15 minutes isn't that long for acclimation. Angels need a mature system with lots of liverocks. What other fish do you have?

 

[jscarlata]

i used to think that drip acclimation was hard, its really easy. get a few buckets, either the 2.5g or 5g from ace or home depot and a good air pump and some airstones. float the fish in the bag in your tank to get temps in line, then put the fish into a bucket with an airstone going. test the salinityof the bag water. setup a drip by tying some airline into a knot- put one end in your tank, tie the knot then put the otehr end in your bucket. start the siphon and then tighten or loosne the knot to control the amount of drips. keep testing the water till the salinty matches tyour tank. some fish places keep their salinity very low, so its important to test the water before you start acclimating. one place i buy from keeps their salinuity at around 1.018, using the drip method it took quite a while to get the salinity up to 1.026. if the starting salinity is very low, you may need to discard some of the bag water in order for the acclimation to not take too long...

 

[Megatrev62]

Acclimation killed the fish IMO.

 

[geaux xman]

I reccomend you set up a QT tank tank use that to first introduce your new fish and get them used to your water, feeding schedule, and lights. It's possible it's just bad fish, but more likely it's something else. Also many angels are reclusive when first introduced to the tank.

+1.

The best thing I ever did in this hobby was setting up a QT.

 

[jcw]

Acclimation killed the fish IMO.

How so?

IMO, dwarf angels are difficult that way. And depending on how they were captured and transported, they might have been on their way out before you purchased them.

No QT is a separate but important point.

Many things could be to blame. Only some of them are under your control. That's why buying from a trusted source and nice long guarantee period is important as well.


Is this a separate QT or DT? What equipment are you running? You mention inverts, but are there any other fish in the tank?

If your water parameters are good, I can't see acclimation playing a big part in the fishes' death. There are plenty of people that just match salinity and temp and dump the fish in. I have yet to see proof that a fish going from 1.020 to 1.025 will definitively die. Fish have osmolarity regulating mechanisms that are made to deal with this. Inverts on the other hand, do not.

 

[JCareyETexas]

15 minutes isn't that long for acclimation. Angels need a mature system with lots of liverocks. What other fish do you have?

Floated bag for 15 minutes then added a little bit of my water, added more of my water after another 10 minutes, added more after 5 minutes. Scooped fish out added to tank. Discarded bag water.

 

[JCareyETexas]

How so?

IMO, dwarf angels are difficult that way. And depending on how they were captured and transported, they might have been on their way out before you purchased them.

No QT is a separate but important point.

Many things could be to blame. Only some of them are under your control. That's why buying from a trusted source and nice long guarantee period is important as well.


Is this a separate QT or DT? What equipment are you running? You mention inverts, but are there any other fish in the tank?

If you're water parameters are good, I can't see acclimation playing a big part in the fishes' death. There are plenty of people that just match salinity and temp and dump the fish in. I have yet to see proof that a fish going from 1.020 to 1.025 will definitively die. Fish have osmolarity regulating mechanisms that are made to deal with this. Inverts on the other hand, do not.

Second fish came from a trusted source (a semi-private LFS), first one came from a general LFS. Neither place "guarantees" their fish so that has led me to strongly consider a reputable online source.

They went straight to the DT. Yes I know I should have a QT but I don't.

Other livestock in the tank:
Reef Hermits
Astrea Snails
Sand Sifting Conch
Arrow Crab
Peppermint Shrimp
Cleaner Shrimp
Emerald Crabs
Foxface
(2) Clowns (A. Ocellaris)
Bi Color Angel

FWIW the SG at the LFS is 1.022, my tank has SG of 1.023

 

[SkullV]

Second fish came from a trusted source (a semi-private LFS), first one came from a general LFS. Neither place "guarantees" their fish so that has led me to strongly consider a reputable online source.

They went straight to the DT. Yes I know I should have a QT but I don't.

Other livestock in the tank:
Reef Hermits
Astrea Snails
Sand Sifting Conch
Arrow Crab
Peppermint Shrimp
Cleaner Shrimp
Emerald Crabs
Foxface
(2) Clowns (A. Ocellaris)
Bi Color Angel

FWIW the SG at the LFS is 1.022, my tank has SG of 1.023

It's very possible that the bicolor is stressing them to death. Are you noticing any aggression upon introduction?

 

[JCareyETexas]

Absolutely no aggression. The bicolor keeps to himself.

 

[Sheol]

Hmm, My Bi-color reacted rather aggressively when he got another Centropyge as a room mate this past spring. ( An African Flameback, C.acanthops).
Don't assume no aggression just because you didn't see any! The Bi-color is my suspect as well...

Matthew

 

[Dr Colliebreath]

With the salinities so close and the water quality good, the acclimation is less likely to be an issue. Still, you should let the fish "get used to" your water over more than 15 minutes as the parameters may be different in other respects (e.g., pH).

Given it took a few days for the fish to die, aggression can't be ruled out even though you didn't see anything. If there was not fighting, however, the fish won't die of hunger by hiding and not eating for a handful of days unless something already was wrong.

A QT would help you isolate the problem by permitting you to rule out aggression in addition to ensuring that the fish have a stress-free environment to acclimate.

Did you see either of the fish eating properly at the lfs? I mean taking a number of bites and really eating, not just nibbling and spitting the food back out. You should pretty much never (or almost never) buy a fish from a lfs if it isn't really eating. The advantage of the lfs is that you can see the fish and whether it is eating, as compared to an online source which offers a guarantee as a trade-off.

Based on what you have said, my guess is that the fish deaths were a result of poor capture or handling from the source until being put in your hands. It doesn't seem likely that you did something or have something in your control that killed them.

By the way, my arrow crab killed 2 peppermint shrimp before I got rid of it so keep your eye on your shrimp.

 

[wayne in norway]

How big are the fish.. big Centropyge are a lot harder to get settled and eating than small ones.

 

[JCareyETexas]

How big are the fish.. big Centropyge are a lot harder to get settled and eating than small ones.

The Keyhole Angel was a large specimen. The Coral Beauty was probably 2/3 full size.
To your point, the bicolor that is doing well in my system is quite a bit smaller and assumingly younger.

 

[JCareyETexas]

Did you see either of the fish eating properly at the lfs? I mean taking a number of bites and really eating, not just nibbling and spitting the food back out. You should pretty much never (or almost never) buy a fish from a lfs if it isn't really eating. The advantage of the lfs is that you can see the fish and whether it is eating, as compared to an online source which offers a guarantee as a trade-off.

I did not witness them eat at the LFS. With the Keyhole, I got caught up in the moment and simply forgot to ask. At this particular LFS, I usually ask to see the fish eat.

The Coral Beauty was purchased from a semi-private LFS which is owned/operated by a "friend". He told me the Coral Beauty was eating well and I gave his word more weight than I probably should have. I am still waiting for him to offer some sort of resolve to this situation as I do believe he was aware that the fish was not eating and possibly misled me as to how long the fish had been in his possesion.

In the future, friend or not, I will have to see the fish eat before I'll take it home.

 

[geaux xman]

I'm not sure if that is okay? maybe if the fish dies after one day, but i dont see how the fish store is responsible in this case.

 

[JCareyETexas]

I'm not sure if that is okay? maybe if the fish dies after one day, but i dont see how the fish store is responsible in this case.

Not sure that many "problem" fish would pass in one day. Unfortunately, it's impossible to determine whos "fault" it really is.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I agree with the QT comments completely. IMO., possibly the most important piece of equipment to own. Everyone who stays in the hobby a while figures this out ; often after a disaster (like me).

It may just be me, but it seems that there are more problems with many dwarf angel species than there used to be. I know that the source for these fish makes a lot of difference and wonder if that may have something to do with what you experienced.