MAG Flake Manufacturer Claims about Suitability

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've recently had several people PM me about claims that the MAG flake manufacturer is making. I've attached them below.

We've discussed these comments before. IMO, they are trying to protect themselves from liability, and also protect sales of a "purer" product that they sell to salt manufacturers.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=801049

If you want to be more careful, you can measure ammonia yourself, or add it very slowly the first time. I believe that the product is useful for us, and to be honest, I doubt if they even understand the difference between a magnesium supplement and the far higher amount that is used to make a salt mix. However, any DIY product carries risks that are somewhat reduced if you but a brand name product and rely on the manufacturer to assure purity.


Here's their standard comment:


"We do not current offer our Low Ammonia grade Magnesium Chloride Flakes in small quantities and currently we are selling it exclusively to artificial seawater manufacturers who thus far have not been willing to resell the product to the public.

We caution you that irrespective of what you read on the internet, our MAG Flakes for ice control is unregulated and is not held to the purity standards and testing that we apply to our low ammonia grade product.
While you might not have a problem using snow and ice grade in artifical seawater, it is playing Russian Roulette with your fish; saving a few dollars might well cost you every fish in the tank if you happen to catch a high level of ammonia in the snow and ice grade product because it is not carefully checked for ammonia. Our MAG Flakes ARE NOT TO BE USED FOR ARTIFICIAL SALT WATER manufacturing, or for supplemental metals in aquariums.

We get a lot of inquiries on this because some sources on the internet have correctly stated that our MAG Flakes are the most pure product made commercially on the planet, but they go on to INCORRECTLY state that it is safe for aquarium use - IT IS NOT! We make the low ammonia grade for that application and we VERY carefully test the product and control it by lot numbers; a practice that is not needed in product used to melt snow where a slightly higher ammonia level makes no difference if it happens to sneak through the process.

Thanks for your inquiry."

 

[mrwizerd]

You know, on top of that, our systems are built to handle ammonia, a small amount of ammonia wont hurt our aquariums. I guess my solution would be make a solution and then test for ammonia, If there is a lot of ammonia drip the solution into the aquarium in the same fashion as kalk. Heck, add it to the kalk and drip it in with it if it doesn't cause a chemical reaction. My point is, a little extra ammonia will feed the bacteria and not really harm fish, besides ammonia isn't as toxic to fish as nitrites... Plus who's to say some of that ammonia isn't the safer kind like what ammo lock produces in freshwater aquaria. All in all, I think it is useful also, not in huge quantities to make up Artificial Sea Salt, but at least as an additive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree with you except for this

"My point is, a little extra ammonia will feed the bacteria and not really harm fish, besides ammonia isn't as toxic to fish as nitrites... "

nitrite is not really toxic to marine fish, but ammonia is rather toxic (a different scenario than for freshwater fish):

Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.htm

 

[mrwizerd]

I stand corrected... I should have realized it considering I know that salt inhibits the nitrite uptake. Sorry bout that, I got ahead of myself.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

Randy, you are using the mag flakes?

What are the chances of those mag flakes having a huge ammonia amount in it?

I also agree that the standard for using mag flakes should be either to drip it, or dont use it at all.

But either way, dripping will not eliminate the metal contents.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I use MAG flake to boost my Instant Ocean water change water by 150 ppm magnesium.

 

[Boomer]

if you happen to catch a high level of ammonia in the snow and ice grade product because it is not carefully checked for ammonia

I agree and do so via first-hand

and

a little extra ammonia will feed the bacteria and not really harm fish

Not a good idea at all.


WARNING !!
I believe long ago I brought this up. The ammonia levels in these can be very, very high, as some manufacturing processes bathy the product in ammonia. This is called the Solvay Process and a by-product of that in any cases is both calcium and magnesium chloride and is were allot of the Mg and Ca chloride come from.

Years ago a salt manufacture received this high ammonia MAG for their salt mix. They had not check it before they added it to the mix. They had no real reason to, as they only bought very low ammonia grade MAG. The supplier, on his own, decided to sup this low ammonia grade MAG for the very high ammonia grade MAG with out telling them. One pallet of this salt mix got out on the market. If you did a large water change the next day you would find almost everything dead
in your tank. You could not measure the ammonia on any of the test kits we use it was so high. I am one of those indivduals.

 

[rayjay]

I just noticed this sticky and hadn't read it before but now I guess I better check each bag I buy.
I am now on the third different manufacturer of Mag flake and have had no trouble at all.
My home made salt water uses the mag flake as a major part of the formula (like 1 lb of mag flake for every 2 lbs of sodium chloride) and I use this home made water for raising brine shrimp to adult, and, I mix it half and half with I.O. for my fish only tanks.
With that at stake I guess each batch should be tested before I use it on my tanks, just in case.
Thanks for the warning.

 

[Obi-dad]

Randy, can I use an ammonia test designed kit for salt water on the Mg Part 3 of your 2+ part recipe to test for ammonia? (since it isn't salt water will the test still work?)

I don't care about accuracy as much as just detecting whether a significant amount of ammonia is present.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I believe that you can use an ammonia kit. I used it here to test Dowflake:

Purity of Calcium Chloride
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/chem.htm

You might dilute it a bit first.


From it:

"Ammonia Testing
There are several ways that calcium chloride can be prepared on an industrial scale. One of these (the Solvay process) involves ammonia. Consequently, ammonia has the potential to be present as an impurity in calcium chloride. For that reason, I tested each of the calcium chloride samples for ammonia. I used two different kits to test for ammonia: LaMotte and Red Sea. The results of the Red Sea kit are shown in Table 4.

Samples spiked with ammonia (from a standard containing 5.8 ppm ammonia as ammonium hydroxide in water) did not show as much ammonia as the test kit claimed, but it was clearly detectable in the two spiked samples (Dow and Kent Turbo Calcium). These spiked samples contained an extra 1.9 ppm of ammonia. One showed up as 0.5 ppm ammonia, and the other showed as 0.5-1 ppm. Since all of the unspiked samples showed 0.5 ppm or less of ammonia by the kit, I conclude that these samples have less than 3 ppm of ammonia in them as tested (accounting for dilution).

In short, none of these samples showed enough ammonia to be concerned about, even when adding enough to boost calcium by 200 ppm in one day. Since these solutions were 100,000 ppm in calcium, adding 200 ppm calcium to an aquarium entails adding 1/500th of the tank volume. At 3 ppm ammonia in the supplement, that means that the tank will be boosted by 3/500 = 0.006 ppm of ammonia, which I believe to be largely insignificant in a reef aquarium.
"

 

[ReeferAl]

It would seem that you would only have to test a sample from each bag once and not every batch you make up from that bag. Considering that this mag chloride is typically available in large bags that wouldn't require testing very often.

Allen

 

[Obi-dad]

My thoughts exactly. And small traces of ammonia are not harmful anway (fish poop contains some I think).

 

[PUGroyale]

Is it just me or does anyone else cringe at the thought of putting de-icer from the auto supply store in their tank :eek1: I can't bring myself to do it...

 

[Obi-dad]

I put it in mine...and my acros are growing nicely. Randy did some tests on specific brands. I wouldn't use just any de-icer.

 

[boxfishpooalot]

what about magnesium sulphate(epsom salts) do they have ammonia too? Maybee testing MS would be a good idea too if its applicable to it.

 

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8234195#post8234195 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by boxfishpooalot
what about magnesium sulphate(epsom salts) do they have ammonia too?

I don't believe it is applicable at all, although Randy could confirm that.

Allen

 

[mrwizerd]

According to randy from Do it yourself Magnesium supplements for the reef aquarium on page 10 paragraph two that Epsom Salts are high in sulfate and that constant dosing with Epsom Salts would cause a possible over enrichment of sulfate. (this is paraphrased) He doesnt mention anything about ammonia, and I doubt it would being passed by USP if it did have ammonia in it, it really would be good for soaking a foot in.

 

[ReeferAl]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8235337#post8235337 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrwizerd
... He doesnt mention anything about ammonia, and I doubt it would being passed by USP if it did have ammonia in it, it really would be good for soaking a foot in.

Epsom salt can also be taken internally as a "cathartic", which would also make the presence of any ammonia unlikely. I believe the production method for magnesium sulfate is different and doesn't involve ammonia at all.

Allen

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've not heard of ammonia as a concern in Epsom salts, and it is a food grade product so likely is fine, but is not a good supplement to use by itself due to accumulation of sulfate.

 

[Hobster]

From the preceding posts, the concern of ammonia seems to be for fish. What about Corals? If indeed there is ammonia would there be more, less or the same concern for them?? Are they affected more or less than fish??