Marine ich fallow period

[Deinonych]

Based on current knowledge 72 days gives you a decent likelihood of 99.9% that all Cryptocaryon is gone after an outbreak but by no means it is 100% guaranteed.

This is a good rule of thumb. The reason we quarantine newly acquired livestock is to mitigate risk and lower the chance of disease. Will these protocols guarantee that no pathogen is present? No, but it will reduce the likelihood significantly. With any treatment protocol, you reach the point of diminishing returns eventually.

As I have stated before, the only guarantees in this hobby are: 1. You will spend money, and 2. Fish will die. It's pointless to argue why the 72 day fallow period will or will not result in elimination of the parasite because there will always be variables that may or may not be accounted for, and most aquarists don't operate in a controlled lab environment where every detail is logged and scrutinized.

This dead horse has been beaten so many times it is now undead.

 

[Perth_reefer]

Just to point out, those posts you referenced are 3 years apart. Could be why they have conflicting information.

Absolutely right, and that is partly my point. We just don't know enough about the parasite to be sure of anything. This is a mathematical equation, maths doesn't change and the life cycle of ich won't have changed in a 3 year period, but the time frames are significantly different. However the 'magic' 72 day rule keeps getting thrown around. The latest post states that to have a 99.8% chance of eradication you must go fallow for 42 days, which means by going another 30 days fallow you are only increasing your chance of eradication by 0.01%.

 

[Ostri]

what did you to with your original fish? Did you cupramine them?

 

[Perth_reefer]

what did you to with your original fish? Did you cupramine them?

It's been a long time since my original post, a lot has happened since then!
I did use copper treatment and then the fish remained in quarantine until my DT was 73 days fallow and I reintroduced the fish.
5 days after the reintroduction ich appeared on my Hippo tang, all the fish came out again and went through TTM. I sold the Hippo tang and reintroduced all fish after 21 days, none showed any sign of ich within the following couple of months.
I also bought a Purple Tang, put it through TTM and added it to my display, it got a fairly bad case of ich within a few days but none of the other 17 fish showed any signs or symtoms. This time after speaking to experienced reef keepers in my local reefkeeping club I decided to leave the tang in the DT and feed heavier (no garlic or any magic suppliments). It's been over 2 months since I've seen any signs of ich in the tank, I added a Moorish Idol which definitely stressed the Purple Tang to begin with and still no signs of ich.
I know ich is in my DT and it always will be now but I feed heavily and try to provide a stress free environment in order to 'manage' ich, for want of a better word.

There are far more questions than answers for me which is why I'm constantly questioning the 72 day rule and other ich related posts, not to cause arguments but to try and gain a better understanding.

Why did my 73 day fallow period not work?
When I added the Purple tang why did none of the other 17 fish show signs of ich?
Why haven't I seen an ich explosion after the 14-30 days since the signs disappeared from the tang?
When I added the Moorish Idol why did it not contract Ich?

The general consensus would say that all my fish should be dead by now as ich would have multiplied beyond survivable levels, however as of today they're all swimming about doing their thing.

 

[Ostri]

It's been a long time since my original post, a lot has happened since then!
I did use copper treatment and then the fish remained in quarantine until my DT was 73 days fallow and I reintroduced the fish.
5 days after the reintroduction ich appeared on my Hippo tang, all the fish came out again and went through TTM. I sold the Hippo tang and reintroduced all fish after 21 days, none showed any sign of ich within the following couple of months.
I also bought a Purple Tang, put it through TTM and added it to my display, it got a fairly bad case of ich within a few days but none of the other 17 fish showed any signs or symtoms. This time after speaking to experienced reef keepers in my local reefkeeping club I decided to leave the tang in the DT and feed heavier (no garlic or any magic suppliments). It's been over 2 months since I've seen any signs of ich in the tank, I added a Moorish Idol which definitely stressed the Purple Tang to begin with and still no signs of ich.
I know ich is in my DT and it always will be now but I feed heavily and try to provide a stress free environment in order to 'manage' ich, for want of a better word.

Thanks that's very helpful! I actually had the same case with you where my blue tang went through cupramine and once I lowered cupramine concentration in the hospital tank ich started to show again. That fish in my experience is the easiest to catch ich, besides Achilles.

 

[snorvich]

Using copper to eradicate cryptocaryon irritans is problematic in two ways: dosage may have fallen below therapeutic level and/or exposure to copper, which acts on the infective stage of the life cycle may not have been long enough.

 

[Ostri]

It's been a long time since my original post, a lot has happened since then!
I did use copper treatment and then the fish remained in quarantine until my DT was 73 days fallow and I reintroduced the fish.
5 days after the reintroduction ich appeared on my Hippo tang, all the fish came out again and went through TTM. I sold the Hippo tang and reintroduced all fish after 21 days, none showed any sign of ich within the following couple of months.
I also bought a Purple Tang, put it through TTM and added it to my display, it got a fairly bad case of ich within a few days but none of the other 17 fish showed any signs or symtoms. This time after speaking to experienced reef keepers in my local reefkeeping club I decided to leave the tang in the DT and feed heavier (no garlic or any magic suppliments). It's been over 2 months since I've seen any signs of ich in the tank, I added a Moorish Idol which definitely stressed the Purple Tang to begin with and still no signs of ich.
I know ich is in my DT and it always will be now but I feed heavily and try to provide a stress free environment in order to 'manage' ich, for want of a better word.

There are far more questions than answers for me which is why I'm constantly questioning the 72 day rule and other ich related posts, not to cause arguments but to try and gain a better understanding.

Why did my 73 day fallow period not work?
When I added the Purple tang why did none of the other 17 fish show signs of ich?
Why haven't I seen an ich explosion after the 14-30 days since the signs disappeared from the tang?
When I added the Moorish Idol why did it not contract Ich?

The general consensus would say that all my fish should be dead by now as ich would have multiplied beyond survivable levels, however as of today they're all swimming about doing their thing.

By the way did you try TTM? I'm contemplating either trying TTM or Cupramine. I've tried Cupramine before and it's hard to control.

 

[Perth_reefer]

By the way did you try TTM? I'm contemplating either trying TTM or Cupramine. I've tried Cupramine before and it's hard to control.

I always had success with copper treatment, it works well if executed correctly. Recently I have been using TTM though, it's faster and easier than copper, however I do find it can stress more sensitive fish, I had a Hippo tang that did not react very well to being handled every couple of days.

 

[microlady]

I don't care what anyone says, no one is an expert on this parasite. Not enough research has been done on it, and most published research is at least ten years old. Some treatment methods work on some tanks, and some do not. It's life cycle is pretty much known, but the time frames and virulence factors can vary. Once crypto gets into a reef tank it is almost impossible to eradicate it. The dormant cysts are very resistant and long-lived, and I've known of several instances that a tank was left without fish for several months and it returned again when healthy quarantined fish were introduced. The parasite can get into your tank from just about anything wet. Treatment methods are a pain and many fish die during the process. Don't believe everything you read or hear, and use your best judgement about how to handle it. Luckily, many fish build up a resistance with time. Good luck!

 

[Deinonych]

You don't have to be an expert to understand the parasite's life cycle and develop a solid quarantine protocol based on that understanding. Crypto prevention is pretty straightforward, and prevention obviates the need to ever worry about fallow periods, stress or disease "management." For example, perform TTM on every new acquisition from the get go and you'll never see it in your display.

 

[snorvich]

You don't have to be an expert to understand the parasite's life cycle and develop a solid quarantine protocol based on that understanding. Crypto prevention is pretty straightforward, and prevention obviates the need to ever worry about fallow periods, stress or disease "management." For example, perform TTM on every new acquisition from the get go and you'll never see it in your display.

This.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I don't care what anyone says, no one is an expert on this parasite. Not enough research has been done on it, and most published research is at least ten years old. Some treatment methods work on some tanks, and some do not. It's life cycle is pretty much known, but the time frames and virulence factors can vary. Once crypto gets into a reef tank it is almost impossible to eradicate it. The dormant cysts are very resistant and long-lived, and I've known of several instances that a tank was left without fish for several months and it returned again when healthy quarantined fish were introduced. The parasite can get into your tank from just about anything wet. Treatment methods are a pain and many fish die during the process. Don't believe everything you read or hear, and use your best judgement about how to handle it. Luckily, many fish build up a resistance with time. Good luck!

I completely agree with this....

You don't have to be an expert to understand the parasite's life cycle and develop a solid quarantine protocol based on that understanding. Crypto prevention is pretty straightforward, and prevention obviates the need to ever worry about fallow periods, stress or disease "management." For example, perform TTM on every new acquisition from the get go and you'll never see it in your display.

and this.....

TTM is a great way to reduce the chance of bringing an infected fish into your tank. But as Microlady said there are many ways for Ich to creep in, and unless you quarantine all hard shelled inverts, coral, rock etc for 72 days you are always running the risk of Ich getting in.....but hold on....even 72 days may not be adequate, so who knows.
Once it's in...........there are numerous examples of Ich lasting beyond the 72 days, the majority of the time I read posts saying that it was the fault of the poster that the 72 day fallow period didn't work. It's easy to fall back on a study as gospel, but could it be that every reef is different, and as such no study is ever going to be conclusive. How many times have we seen someone saying that their Flame Angel is reef safe, and someone else saying theirs wasn't; or someone had success with a particular lighting source, and someone else didn't; the list goes on.
IMO Ich is the same, Copper treatment, Hypo and TTM work if executed correctly on new additions, but once it's in, nothing will ever be surefire except taking everything out and starting again. If you make the decision to 'manage' it in a well fed, stress free tank you are lambasted for being cruel to the fish, 'they're in a lot of discomfort', 'You'll see an improvement in behaviour if you get the ich out of your tank', 'the Ich is in their gills and there will be an ich explosion soon'....this is pure speculation, no one knows the effects on individual fish when the parasite isn't apparently present which is why I believe in SOME circumstances managing Ich by providing a well fed, stress free environment is better than ripping apart a thriving reef to catch all fish and in the process stressing everything living in the system.

 

[jjoos99]

If a tank is left fallow for the 72 day period lets assume that the ich is eliminated from the dt. If there happens to be a fish left in the tank from what I have read the ich will have a host to stay alive with. does that mean the fish is infected with ich? If so is a fish able to harbor ich but the ich not consume and kill the fish? If that is the case and I qt all new fish for say a month with no signs of ich how do you know it isnt infected but resistant. wouldnt you just then introduce ich back into the display tank when the new fish goes into the display tank? sorry for all the questions but I am trying to understand the treatments I am currently going through and what I need to do when I am ready to add new fish.
thanks
jeff

 

[snorvich]

If a tank is left fallow for the 72 day period lets assume that the ich is eliminated from the dt. If there happens to be a fish left in the tank from what I have read the ich will have a host to stay alive with. does that mean the fish is infected with ich? If so is a fish able to harbor ich but the ich not consume and kill the fish? If that is the case and I qt all new fish for say a month with no signs of ich how do you know it isnt infected but resistant. wouldnt you just then introduce ich back into the display tank when the new fish goes into the display tank? sorry for all the questions but I am trying to understand the treatments I am currently going through and what I need to do when I am ready to add new fish.
thanks
jeff

Tank transfer will eliminate any possibility of ich. Anything else has potential issues.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Could anyone provide a link to a study saying Cryptocaryon can survive for 72 days in warm tropical waters? The only study I have seen said it was in colder (56 degrees) water but I haven't read a whole a lot of studies on the subject. Thanks.

 

[Adamant]

I see people quoting that TTM can guarantee that there is no Ich after a relatively short period but I'm not sure how this can be when (AIUI) it's been shown in studies that on rare occasions an ich tomont may be on a fish rather than substrate.

If this is the case, surely this completely destroys the TTM theory?

It sounds to me that copper treatment for 72 days will kill all free swimming parasites and they should have all hatched by this time (assuming that 72 days is correct for the longest an Ich could live without hatching)

This would however be detrimental to the fish, but I don't get how TTM can be used if it's true that Ich can be in the Tomont stage attached to a fish.

 

[lespaul339]

I've been dealing with ich since June.

Pulled all my fish out of my display, gave everyone a fresh water dip and ran hypo for 3 months. That didn't get rid of ich and I lost half my fish. I'm now on my 3rd week of running cupramine, and none of my fish are showing signs of ich except my Blue Regal Tang. I test my copper levels on a daily basis and dose more as needed. I'm going to run copper for two more weeks after he shows no signs of ich just to be sure. Then keep them in QT for two more weeks after that for observation.

All I know is I agree with the OP. All the information on ich and its life cycle is very frustrating I followed hypo at 1.008 to a T and it still didn't eradicate ich. I'm in the camp that believes just because it works well for one person does't mean it's going to work well for another. I figure if this copper treatment doesn't work I'm going to try TTM and if that doesn't work then I'm done trying. I will just live with ich in my display and hope for the best. They really need to come up with a reef safe cure for ich. I'd gladly pay hundreds for it if it was absolute.

 

[snorvich]

I see people quoting that TTM can guarantee that there is no Ich after a relatively short period but I'm not sure how this can be when (AIUI) it's been shown in studies that on rare occasions an ich tomont may be on a fish rather than substrate.

If this is the case, surely this completely destroys the TTM theory?

It sounds to me that copper treatment for 72 days will kill all free swimming parasites and they should have all hatched by this time (assuming that 72 days is correct for the longest an Ich could live without hatching)

This would however be detrimental to the fish, but I don't get how TTM can be used if it's true that Ich can be in the Tomont stage attached to a fish.

In this life time there are only two things certain: death and taxes. If you purchase or catch a fish for keeping it in captivity, in the beginning either it has a parasite or other disease or it does not. Let us assume a 50% probability that it has a parasite. However, there is no universal treatment that will eradicate all parasites. I use TTM first because it will virtually always eliminate ich from the equation. It can rarely happen as mentioned above that TTM will fail, perhaps one in a thousand, but that does not damn TTM to the junk pile. Yes one could also treat a fish with copper for 72 days, but some fish do not tolerate copper, sometimes the aquarist does not adequately maintain therapeutic value, and worst case another parasite not treated by copper or is masked by copper is present. If you want to look at the worst case scenario then ich will not be preventable, however many of us have parasite free tanks using this type of quarantine protocol.

 

[Adamant]

Thanks,

Apologies if I sounded argumentative - I'm really not, just interested in this and wanting to make sure I'm understanding things correctly.

Just curious here (and it's a bit OT), why is such a long period in copper recommended for treating Ich in a HT when, by my reading of the life cycle, just 7 days would ensure that you have "cured" the fish of Ich as there would no longer be any Trophonts on the fish?

Also, for those who QT in 2 weeks copper and then take copper down to 0. Surely, if you're going to leave the fish in the same water / substrate where tomonts may be then you either have to leave the fish in copper for the entire QT time (or at least 72 days) - or alternatively TTM after the 2 weeks to ensure no tomonts that could re-infect the fish?


[q]In this life time there are only two things certain: death and taxes. If you purchase or catch a fish for keeping it in captivity, in the beginning either it has a parasite or other disease or it does not. Let us assume a 50% probability that it has a parasite. However, there is no universal treatment that will eradicate all parasites. I use TTM first because it will virtually always eliminate ich from the equation. It can rarely happen as mentioned above that TTM will fail, perhaps one in a thousand, but that does not damn TTM to the junk pile. Yes one could also treat a fish with copper for 72 days, but some fish do not tolerate copper, sometimes the aquarist does not adequately maintain therapeutic value, and worst case another parasite not treated by copper or is masked by copper is present. If you want to look at the worst case scenario then ich will not be preventable, however many of us have parasite free tanks using this type of quarantine protocol.[/q]

 

[Deinonych]

Just curious here (and it's a bit OT), why is such a long period in copper recommended for treating Ich in a HT when, by my reading of the life cycle, just 7 days would ensure that you have "cured" the fish of Ich as there would no longer be any Trophonts on the fish?

Copper only affects the free-swimming infective stage (theront), which is the most highly variable stage in the life cycle, timewise. It does not affect the trophont, protomont or tomont stages. This is why TTM is more effective, as it removes any protomonts or tomonts with each transfer, effectively breaking the life cycle.