Maroun 150g Build Thread
- Thread starter maroun.c
- Start date
maroun.c
New member
Hello Pierre,
and Welcome to RC.
I just saw your build thread and know from your equipment we had our tanks made at the same store. Actually I believe both tanks were being constructed at the same time as I saw yours (or somebody elses tank with the same dimensions?) being assembled near Barbir Bridge?If that's true talk about a small world.
I live in AIn Saadeh near Saint Roukoz Convent. I'm in Jordan right now but should be back on wednesday. will email you my contacts and feel free to contact me for ideas or to pass by to see my 80 G or the new 150.
racksteris thanks
and Welcome to RC.
I just saw your build thread and know from your equipment we had our tanks made at the same store. Actually I believe both tanks were being constructed at the same time as I saw yours (or somebody elses tank with the same dimensions?) being assembled near Barbir Bridge?If that's true talk about a small world.
I live in AIn Saadeh near Saint Roukoz Convent. I'm in Jordan right now but should be back on wednesday. will email you my contacts and feel free to contact me for ideas or to pass by to see my 80 G or the new 150.
racksteris thanks
maroun.c
New member
Really small world
I Lived in Fanar close to Bonjus factory for 1 year before I traveled to Dubai 3 years ago.
Both Our tanks got drilled at the same time I believe, Why was your delayed this much?
Sent you my phone number on Private email and will call you when back to Beirut.
Take care.
I Lived in Fanar close to Bonjus factory for 1 year before I traveled to Dubai 3 years ago.
Both Our tanks got drilled at the same time I believe, Why was your delayed this much?
Sent you my phone number on Private email and will call you when back to Beirut.
Take care.
melev
Well-known member
I just finished reading this thread, and I have to say I'm really surprised at how little help you've received thus far. You were very clear in your documentation, and your questions were easy to understand and should have been just as easily answered.
<b>Stain</b>
The wood you have appears to be Birch. The stain you choose is merely color. The varnish or sealer is what matters, and usually people opt for something called Marine Spar varnish. It is the type of varnish used on any wood that would be around water, such as on boats. Let your cabinet guy know you want something waterproof. He'll want to know if you want glossy or satin finish - that's a preference choice you'll have to make yourself.
Polyurethane is very common and odds are available in your area. Keep in mind that some tend to make the project look more yellow, but there are some clear water-based Urethanes that don't have that yellow hue.
<b>Plumbing</b>
In regards to your plumbing, it looks pretty restrictive to me. You asked about the SCWD at least twice: It will reduce flow by 20%. The way the plumbing is now, you reduced it down to 1/2" and that is already too small. What is occurring is massive restriction rather than increased flow. You might expect making the plumbing smaller will make it shoot out faster and harder, but unless you have a pressure-rated pump (uses more electricity), odds are you'll just get so-so flow.
Ideally, you want to use as much large plumbing as possible from the pump up to the tank, with as few fitting as possible. I would get rid of a lot of those fittings and use SpaFlex tubing instead. It would gently sweep to the area you need it, rather than having to get such precision assembly. Additionally, all those fittings are creating tons of restriction, which means less flow.
Btw, you called almost every piece a 'return'. Half of your plumbing is 'drain' plumbing because it drains to the sump. The other half is the 'return' plumbing because the water returns to the display tank.
The Durso standpipes need to be built properly, which means raising them up much higher as Chris pointed out. Usually the Elbow section would be 2" lower than the overflow teeth. This keeps it quiet as the water doesn't have far to fall. The air hole in the cap (which must be above water) should be 3/16" in diameter.
<b>Salt</b>
Don't worry about any salt that hasn't dissolved yet. It will. Perhaps the water isn't warm enough but it will eventually melt since it is water soluable. Just add your sand on top.
<b>Sand</b>
The sand you are moving is from your old tank, correct? I hope you going to rinse it out completely, or you'll be moving all kinds of nasty stuff into your new system, which will include NO2, NO3, PO4, and a number of toxins due to oxygen-free zones that will react badly to being disturbed. I have a page on my site about rinsing sand; let me know if you need that link.
<b>Flow</b>
Your tank needs at least 10x turn over. The tank is 150g, so you need 1500gph minimum.
How does that fitting at the base of the tank not drain the tank completely? Is it part of the closed loop? How many GPH will the closed loop add to your flow?
<b>Sump</b>
The ATO section of your sump is convenient but wasteful because of the design of the sump. That freshwater section should be all the way to the top of the sump. Right now, that section (the far right) looks much more like the return section, and in fact could be used as one instead of the way you have it now.
The refugium / propagation zone is interesting, and I hope you can squeeze a light fixture above it.
<b>RO/DI</b>
The reason to restrict the water coming out of the drainline is to put backpressure on the membrane that produces the good water. You'll need to get a replacement part for that broken fitting.
<b>Lighting</b>
Those are neat lights. I'm not sure how easily you'll be able to adjust them once they are secured to the canopy, but if you can mount them about 9" off the water, that would be good. I do think you'll need a third light perhaps. 300w of light isn't much for 150g, even with those dimensions.
<b>Woodwork</b>
The centerboard that is in your way -- tell them you want them to attach some type of locking bracket so you can remove it when necessary. Perhaps a sliding pin at the top and the bottom, inside the cabinet area. The doors would be attached to it, and if you needed more access you'd open both doors fully toward you and essentially touching each other (like a sandwich) and then release the catches so you can remove them and that upright board all at once. When done, reinsert the upright, secure it, and swing the doors closed.
I hope that answered most of the questions you asked, and if not, keep asking and I'm sure more people will chime in with suggestions.
<b>Stain</b>
The wood you have appears to be Birch. The stain you choose is merely color. The varnish or sealer is what matters, and usually people opt for something called Marine Spar varnish. It is the type of varnish used on any wood that would be around water, such as on boats. Let your cabinet guy know you want something waterproof. He'll want to know if you want glossy or satin finish - that's a preference choice you'll have to make yourself.
Polyurethane is very common and odds are available in your area. Keep in mind that some tend to make the project look more yellow, but there are some clear water-based Urethanes that don't have that yellow hue.
<b>Plumbing</b>
In regards to your plumbing, it looks pretty restrictive to me. You asked about the SCWD at least twice: It will reduce flow by 20%. The way the plumbing is now, you reduced it down to 1/2" and that is already too small. What is occurring is massive restriction rather than increased flow. You might expect making the plumbing smaller will make it shoot out faster and harder, but unless you have a pressure-rated pump (uses more electricity), odds are you'll just get so-so flow.
Ideally, you want to use as much large plumbing as possible from the pump up to the tank, with as few fitting as possible. I would get rid of a lot of those fittings and use SpaFlex tubing instead. It would gently sweep to the area you need it, rather than having to get such precision assembly. Additionally, all those fittings are creating tons of restriction, which means less flow.
Btw, you called almost every piece a 'return'. Half of your plumbing is 'drain' plumbing because it drains to the sump. The other half is the 'return' plumbing because the water returns to the display tank.
The Durso standpipes need to be built properly, which means raising them up much higher as Chris pointed out. Usually the Elbow section would be 2" lower than the overflow teeth. This keeps it quiet as the water doesn't have far to fall. The air hole in the cap (which must be above water) should be 3/16" in diameter.
<b>Salt</b>
Don't worry about any salt that hasn't dissolved yet. It will. Perhaps the water isn't warm enough but it will eventually melt since it is water soluable. Just add your sand on top.
<b>Sand</b>
The sand you are moving is from your old tank, correct? I hope you going to rinse it out completely, or you'll be moving all kinds of nasty stuff into your new system, which will include NO2, NO3, PO4, and a number of toxins due to oxygen-free zones that will react badly to being disturbed. I have a page on my site about rinsing sand; let me know if you need that link.
<b>Flow</b>
Your tank needs at least 10x turn over. The tank is 150g, so you need 1500gph minimum.
How does that fitting at the base of the tank not drain the tank completely? Is it part of the closed loop? How many GPH will the closed loop add to your flow?
<b>Sump</b>
The ATO section of your sump is convenient but wasteful because of the design of the sump. That freshwater section should be all the way to the top of the sump. Right now, that section (the far right) looks much more like the return section, and in fact could be used as one instead of the way you have it now.
The refugium / propagation zone is interesting, and I hope you can squeeze a light fixture above it.
<b>RO/DI</b>
The reason to restrict the water coming out of the drainline is to put backpressure on the membrane that produces the good water. You'll need to get a replacement part for that broken fitting.
<b>Lighting</b>
Those are neat lights. I'm not sure how easily you'll be able to adjust them once they are secured to the canopy, but if you can mount them about 9" off the water, that would be good. I do think you'll need a third light perhaps. 300w of light isn't much for 150g, even with those dimensions.
<b>Woodwork</b>
The centerboard that is in your way -- tell them you want them to attach some type of locking bracket so you can remove it when necessary. Perhaps a sliding pin at the top and the bottom, inside the cabinet area. The doors would be attached to it, and if you needed more access you'd open both doors fully toward you and essentially touching each other (like a sandwich) and then release the catches so you can remove them and that upright board all at once. When done, reinsert the upright, secure it, and swing the doors closed.
I hope that answered most of the questions you asked, and if not, keep asking and I'm sure more people will chime in with suggestions.
maroun.c
New member
Hello Marc,
Thanks for the very detailed and informative post. This is just what I needed at this stage.
Stain
Thanks for clearing the stain and varnish issue. Contacted the guy doing the stain and he had in mind diong the Polyurethane but when I mentioned the Marine Spar VArnish he said it was available so we will go for it now. As for wood type I checked beech and Birch online and could not tell which mine was. Anyway it is the same wood that my Living room furniture is made with and will be stained with the same color to match with it. Did not go for same color as the dining room as it is just a temporary one and will be replaced soon.
Plumbing
A Big thanks for all the info here as this was my major nightmare. I did ask 2-3 times about the SCWD here and 5-6 times in other threads with no convincing replies. In case i would be going for one it would have been connected to the 3/4 inch tube that's going through the Overflow. The restriction to 1/2 inch is done on top where at the T level. I had read your comments on not restricting to 1/2 inch in other threads however I thuoght that restricting to 2 1/2 inch would not cause any problem. I only have a 675 Gph return pump and after the loss it would be less than that so I believe it's better not to have an SCWD on the return line and have it on the closed loops instead?
Those fittings where just put to transfer the water from the buckets to the tank with minimal splash and I kept it there while waiting for the covers to be ready to proceed with the return plumbing. I was considering many output nozzles on each sides but raeding your replies I believe it would be best to just have one 3/4 inch output on the return line to avoid decreaseing sump turnover and then dealing with tank circulation via the CL or additional Widestreams if the CL are not sufficient.
Does it make any difference if the pump output is 1/2 inch to start with?
Thanks for clearing the return Thing as I always wondered if it was return from tank to sump or return from sump to tank, That's a relief.
I wish Spa Flex tubing was available here.
Will raise both Dursos to the level you mention and try to deal with it by unscrewing the caps. if that does not work I will tighten the caps and add holes and make them bigger till it works.
Salt
Will add a heater to the tank couple of days before adding the sand hoping that would solve it if not I'll just add the sand on top.
Sand
I will be moving the sand from my old tank, Will check that page on your website to dedide on how to clean it. I will siphon the top layer of the sand and not clean this part to ahve it seed the cleaned sand. I was amazed with the amont of clouding caused by removing only 2 cupsof sand from my refugium and don't want to risk moving the whole sandbed as it is to the new tank. Now that my refugium of the 80 G is still working and I have my sump and Coral frag tank to keep my corals and fish I believe I have the time to thouroughly clean the sand before moving it. Or I could just take the corals, rocks, and fish out of the 80 put them in buckets, drain the water, take out the sand then reput the corals and fish in the tank and rocks will then go to my new sump, then after cleaning the sand I could drain the 150 put the sand fill it with water and add teh rocks to it, connect the tank to the sump for filtration, run it for 2 days test for any spikes and then move the livestock to the tank. Does this sound reasonnable?
Flow
Does the 10x Turnover have to be to the Sump or is this total water movement in the tank?
The fitting at the base of the tank is made for a mechanical filter which I will not be adding to the tank anyway.It can also be used for an additional CL in the furture in case the one I wil lhave for now is not sufficitient. Still it's nice to have it in case I need to add a chiller or maybe connect the tank to another tank in the future. Also It will have a hose connected to the drain in order to make water changes easier. If not used I will remove the top of it and close the tube for more security. Also this part will have rocks in front of it to hide it as it looks really bad.
As for the CL it will be modified one as I don't really think it's safe to have an outside plumbing and an external pump being a very frequent traveler I'm sure I'll have leaks when away. I will have 1 big pump or maybe two smaller ones in that partition behind the Overflow and this will supply the 1 or maybe 2 closed loops with SCWD. this paritition will receive the water back through those 3 holes made in it so it should always have hte same water level of the tank. I also have an additional hole in that paritition when one pump is going to pump water to a spraybar behind the rocks to minimize dead flow areas there. This is still an experiment to avoid having to add widestreams in the tank which always look bad (IMHO) I'm just hoping it will work. In Anyway my tank will be mainly softies and LPS I might have few SPS if the LFS gets some but I doubt my tank will have a considerable amount of SPS in the near future.
Sump
I don't have access to Photobucket on this connection but Iwill try to add a picture with labeling on how the flow thruogh the sump will be. Basically the Left part of the sump (under the bulkheads) will be the refugium, and I can squeeze a couple of lights by attaching them to "holding screws" in between the tubing. I would also go for flurescent lighting or even add a 75 W M that I was using on top of my old refugium .
The midle part of thesump is the return, it's way to big I know but I need to have a large amount of water in case no one is there to ad to it till the Top off is figured out and installed. in the middle of that section you see the tubing with a closed end. I was plannign on having a flow valve there or maybe use that bulkhead as entarnce for the tube from an auto TO then that tube would go higher than water level to avoid siohning back... that's all changed now as I don't see enough place under the stand for a Topp off. The right section in the Sump is the skimmers partition, although my skimmer sits in the retun partition its supply powerhed and it'soutput are in that section. a second skimmer will be added there too. The addiitonal small tank attached on the far right is the propagation tank, I will be able to add a light fixture or even a 75 or 150 W MH. However because of heat issues and considering that most corals in there will be softies and maybe very few LPS or SPS in the future I belive a PC or flluorescent will be enough as I will have racks that go from lower to middle to higher and I can put light loveing corals very clsoe to the light. Worse case scenario I could add a MH that I only turn on when I hve light demanding corals there. With the initial plan of the sump the refugium should have been next to the propagation tank and I had the plan to have a 75w MH that would manually or automaticall move from right to left to shine on both (Refug and Prop tanK) Unfortunately This will not be possible now.
RO,DI
This is only an RO unit the part after the RO membrane is supposed to take out smell and other stuff from the water. I don't think it is a DI (although that would be a nice surprise)
I saw the RO units on your site and wish I was closer to order one as their built quality looks much better than the chinese ones... Working on finding a replacement for the broken fiting or maybe just a balvalve that I can attach on the drain end and close it down a bit.
Lighting
I will still be able to adjust them when in the canopy as only the outer part of the fixture will be fixed to the canopy and the inner part can swivel inside. Still wondering If I should install them through the top of the canopy like they are intended to be or just attach them by small chains to the top? My canopy will be 12-13 inches high so putting them in teh would would make them around 11 inches from the water should they be any closer? I'm wondering now if I sould add a 3rd one 250 W in the middle or if that would cause imbalance? Anyway I will be supplementing them with Fluorescent actinics and ultra bright white from Arcadia in addition to a couple of T5 tubes.
One more problem if I go with two MH only is that they will have to be installed right on top of glass braces to be at equal distance from each other and from the tank sides do you think It'sll casue severe shadows even if supplemented by T5 and other fluorescents. If It's ok to go for 2 MH only and the additional supplementation do you think I should place them on top of the braces or just have them in between the braces? in this case there will be either:
-One MH oveer the 1st third of the tank from left and another one over the right third
0r
-One light over the 1st third from left and another one in the middle of the tank .That would leave the right third without any MH on it. This should be ok for the inhabitants as I plan to have an open space in that end And in case I feel I need more lights I could always add a 3rd MH in the right third (which is not possible if I go for MH over the braces. Very confusing but very important As I don't want to have the whole canoy taken out to change the top in case I need to change my lights.
Woodwork
will suggest that and see if it still can be done. In any case my doors will be attached with special hinges that can be detached by pressing a lever so I will only have that vertical board to remove. The guy told me that the whole cover will be like a U shaped thing that slides from the front on teh stad and is secured by few visible screws from the inside part. in case needed I could always unscrew those and take the whole thing out. The back part will be a separate wood piece that will be secured by screws also frm inside in case I need to remove it.
Guess this should not be a big issue.
You did answer all of my questions but then an answer brings out another question
Will try to add some photos that explain things a bit better.
Once again thanks for your help
Thanks for the very detailed and informative post. This is just what I needed at this stage.
Stain
Thanks for clearing the stain and varnish issue. Contacted the guy doing the stain and he had in mind diong the Polyurethane but when I mentioned the Marine Spar VArnish he said it was available so we will go for it now. As for wood type I checked beech and Birch online and could not tell which mine was. Anyway it is the same wood that my Living room furniture is made with and will be stained with the same color to match with it. Did not go for same color as the dining room as it is just a temporary one and will be replaced soon.
Plumbing
A Big thanks for all the info here as this was my major nightmare. I did ask 2-3 times about the SCWD here and 5-6 times in other threads with no convincing replies. In case i would be going for one it would have been connected to the 3/4 inch tube that's going through the Overflow. The restriction to 1/2 inch is done on top where at the T level. I had read your comments on not restricting to 1/2 inch in other threads however I thuoght that restricting to 2 1/2 inch would not cause any problem. I only have a 675 Gph return pump and after the loss it would be less than that so I believe it's better not to have an SCWD on the return line and have it on the closed loops instead?
Those fittings where just put to transfer the water from the buckets to the tank with minimal splash and I kept it there while waiting for the covers to be ready to proceed with the return plumbing. I was considering many output nozzles on each sides but raeding your replies I believe it would be best to just have one 3/4 inch output on the return line to avoid decreaseing sump turnover and then dealing with tank circulation via the CL or additional Widestreams if the CL are not sufficient.
Does it make any difference if the pump output is 1/2 inch to start with?
Thanks for clearing the return Thing as I always wondered if it was return from tank to sump or return from sump to tank, That's a relief.
I wish Spa Flex tubing was available here.
Will raise both Dursos to the level you mention and try to deal with it by unscrewing the caps. if that does not work I will tighten the caps and add holes and make them bigger till it works.
Salt
Will add a heater to the tank couple of days before adding the sand hoping that would solve it if not I'll just add the sand on top.
Sand
I will be moving the sand from my old tank, Will check that page on your website to dedide on how to clean it. I will siphon the top layer of the sand and not clean this part to ahve it seed the cleaned sand. I was amazed with the amont of clouding caused by removing only 2 cupsof sand from my refugium and don't want to risk moving the whole sandbed as it is to the new tank. Now that my refugium of the 80 G is still working and I have my sump and Coral frag tank to keep my corals and fish I believe I have the time to thouroughly clean the sand before moving it. Or I could just take the corals, rocks, and fish out of the 80 put them in buckets, drain the water, take out the sand then reput the corals and fish in the tank and rocks will then go to my new sump, then after cleaning the sand I could drain the 150 put the sand fill it with water and add teh rocks to it, connect the tank to the sump for filtration, run it for 2 days test for any spikes and then move the livestock to the tank. Does this sound reasonnable?
Flow
Does the 10x Turnover have to be to the Sump or is this total water movement in the tank?
The fitting at the base of the tank is made for a mechanical filter which I will not be adding to the tank anyway.It can also be used for an additional CL in the furture in case the one I wil lhave for now is not sufficitient. Still it's nice to have it in case I need to add a chiller or maybe connect the tank to another tank in the future. Also It will have a hose connected to the drain in order to make water changes easier. If not used I will remove the top of it and close the tube for more security. Also this part will have rocks in front of it to hide it as it looks really bad.
As for the CL it will be modified one as I don't really think it's safe to have an outside plumbing and an external pump being a very frequent traveler I'm sure I'll have leaks when away. I will have 1 big pump or maybe two smaller ones in that partition behind the Overflow and this will supply the 1 or maybe 2 closed loops with SCWD. this paritition will receive the water back through those 3 holes made in it so it should always have hte same water level of the tank. I also have an additional hole in that paritition when one pump is going to pump water to a spraybar behind the rocks to minimize dead flow areas there. This is still an experiment to avoid having to add widestreams in the tank which always look bad (IMHO) I'm just hoping it will work. In Anyway my tank will be mainly softies and LPS I might have few SPS if the LFS gets some but I doubt my tank will have a considerable amount of SPS in the near future.
Sump
I don't have access to Photobucket on this connection but Iwill try to add a picture with labeling on how the flow thruogh the sump will be. Basically the Left part of the sump (under the bulkheads) will be the refugium, and I can squeeze a couple of lights by attaching them to "holding screws" in between the tubing. I would also go for flurescent lighting or even add a 75 W M that I was using on top of my old refugium .
The midle part of thesump is the return, it's way to big I know but I need to have a large amount of water in case no one is there to ad to it till the Top off is figured out and installed. in the middle of that section you see the tubing with a closed end. I was plannign on having a flow valve there or maybe use that bulkhead as entarnce for the tube from an auto TO then that tube would go higher than water level to avoid siohning back... that's all changed now as I don't see enough place under the stand for a Topp off. The right section in the Sump is the skimmers partition, although my skimmer sits in the retun partition its supply powerhed and it'soutput are in that section. a second skimmer will be added there too. The addiitonal small tank attached on the far right is the propagation tank, I will be able to add a light fixture or even a 75 or 150 W MH. However because of heat issues and considering that most corals in there will be softies and maybe very few LPS or SPS in the future I belive a PC or flluorescent will be enough as I will have racks that go from lower to middle to higher and I can put light loveing corals very clsoe to the light. Worse case scenario I could add a MH that I only turn on when I hve light demanding corals there. With the initial plan of the sump the refugium should have been next to the propagation tank and I had the plan to have a 75w MH that would manually or automaticall move from right to left to shine on both (Refug and Prop tanK) Unfortunately This will not be possible now.
RO,DI
This is only an RO unit the part after the RO membrane is supposed to take out smell and other stuff from the water. I don't think it is a DI (although that would be a nice surprise)
I saw the RO units on your site and wish I was closer to order one as their built quality looks much better than the chinese ones... Working on finding a replacement for the broken fiting or maybe just a balvalve that I can attach on the drain end and close it down a bit.
Lighting
I will still be able to adjust them when in the canopy as only the outer part of the fixture will be fixed to the canopy and the inner part can swivel inside. Still wondering If I should install them through the top of the canopy like they are intended to be or just attach them by small chains to the top? My canopy will be 12-13 inches high so putting them in teh would would make them around 11 inches from the water should they be any closer? I'm wondering now if I sould add a 3rd one 250 W in the middle or if that would cause imbalance? Anyway I will be supplementing them with Fluorescent actinics and ultra bright white from Arcadia in addition to a couple of T5 tubes.
One more problem if I go with two MH only is that they will have to be installed right on top of glass braces to be at equal distance from each other and from the tank sides do you think It'sll casue severe shadows even if supplemented by T5 and other fluorescents. If It's ok to go for 2 MH only and the additional supplementation do you think I should place them on top of the braces or just have them in between the braces? in this case there will be either:
-One MH oveer the 1st third of the tank from left and another one over the right third
0r
-One light over the 1st third from left and another one in the middle of the tank .That would leave the right third without any MH on it. This should be ok for the inhabitants as I plan to have an open space in that end And in case I feel I need more lights I could always add a 3rd MH in the right third (which is not possible if I go for MH over the braces. Very confusing but very important As I don't want to have the whole canoy taken out to change the top in case I need to change my lights.
Woodwork
will suggest that and see if it still can be done. In any case my doors will be attached with special hinges that can be detached by pressing a lever so I will only have that vertical board to remove. The guy told me that the whole cover will be like a U shaped thing that slides from the front on teh stad and is secured by few visible screws from the inside part. in case needed I could always unscrew those and take the whole thing out. The back part will be a separate wood piece that will be secured by screws also frm inside in case I need to remove it.
Guess this should not be a big issue.
You did answer all of my questions but then an answer brings out another question
Will try to add some photos that explain things a bit better.
Once again thanks for your help
melev
Well-known member
<b>Plumbing</b>
With the return pump only pushing 675gph, I would skip the SCWD unless you want the return flow to be around maybe 300gph. That's just a guess on my part based on the plumbing I'm seeing with all those fittings, plus the SCWD. I don't see how switching soft gentle flow would make any difference at all. Better to have one return pipe with as few fittings as possible to just push the water up easily into the display tank.
By Widestreams, are you talking about Tunze pumps perhaps?
You asked about the 1/2" output on your pump. I'm pretty sure you told us what it was, and it wasn't a Mag pump. If it were a Mag pump, I'd tell you to double the plumbing diameter. In regards to your situation, I have a feeling that 1/2" plumbing all the way will still be very restrictive. Try breathing through a straw for a while, and you might understand what I mean.
So unscrewing the caps on your Durso system is how you allow air into the drainline? There must be a slit cut up the side of the threaded section, I'm guessing. As long as some air gets into the pipe, it will run silently. The output of the drain line should be about 1/2" to 1" beneath the water level in the first section of your sump.
<b>Sand</b>
Please do read that article before you get too ambitious. You only need a few cups of sand to seed your newly rinsed-out sand. Keeping your livestock in the propagation tank for now is fine, provided you have enough flow and lighting to keep them happy.
<b>Flow</b>
The 10x is the flow in the display. It can be 3x to 5x in the sump section, but the display needs more flow. Some people have 20x flow, 30x flow or more, based specifically on the corals they keep. My reef is around 32x with three VorTechs and my return pump. The pump pushing water into the spraybar will be part of the flow you are counting. So for now, these three are your flow: Spraybar, Closed loop, return pump. What does that add up to?
Most closed loops are exactly what you've described: external plumbing and external pump. Can it fail or leak? Yes, it can. However, most people have decided the risk is acceptable and don't worry too much. Where the closed loop holes are drilled in your tank determines how high the risk is, as well as how well you glued your plumbing and what pump you've chosen to use.
<b>Sump</b>
Your sump makes more sense to me now. I'd like to see your skimmer rest on a small stand, and perhaps you could extend the two pipes coming out of the skimmer into the raw area of sump (originally the skimmer section).
I thought the left end was your ATO section, but that will make a nice refugium zone.
The return section is of a good size. I wish the top off hole wasn't quite so low in the sump, because it is best if you can hear the water being added when it needs topping off. Having an audible sound is very useful to hobbyists, especially if the sound seems to be unending - we begin to think something might be amiss and begin to investigate the situation.
The propagation section doesn't have any reason for water to flow to and from the sump. You will probably need a pump to push water into the plumbing to the propagation tank, and gravity will force old water back into the sump. The way it is now, I don't think you'll have any real water movement between the two vessels. You could pour some PurpleUp in the skimmer section and see if any of that milky white fluid travels into the prop tank unassisted. Since the water level is the same height in both vessels, it will follow the path of least resistance and thus head over to the return section.
I like how you'd planned to share the light with both refugium and prop zones; that was a good idea.
<b>Lighting</b>
This is a very subjective topic, and as you've already indicated, you have several options. I do like the idea you have of putting a 250w bulb in the center, since that is similar to what I've done on my tank (250 - 400 - 250). If you like, the 250w bulb could be a more blue bulb perhaps, like I choose to run. I don't think I would put a 10,000K bulb in there because it will make your 150w bulbs look super dim by comparison.
Having two lights only, leaving the left end shadowed might be interesting for a while, but odds are you'll begin to wish you had light over there as well. VHO lighting will make up for it, but it will still look quite dim.
<b>Electrical</b>
I know it is only temporary, but your 5-way powerstrip looks very dangerous where it is now, as water could easily drip into it.
With the return pump only pushing 675gph, I would skip the SCWD unless you want the return flow to be around maybe 300gph. That's just a guess on my part based on the plumbing I'm seeing with all those fittings, plus the SCWD. I don't see how switching soft gentle flow would make any difference at all. Better to have one return pipe with as few fittings as possible to just push the water up easily into the display tank.
By Widestreams, are you talking about Tunze pumps perhaps?
You asked about the 1/2" output on your pump. I'm pretty sure you told us what it was, and it wasn't a Mag pump. If it were a Mag pump, I'd tell you to double the plumbing diameter. In regards to your situation, I have a feeling that 1/2" plumbing all the way will still be very restrictive. Try breathing through a straw for a while, and you might understand what I mean.
So unscrewing the caps on your Durso system is how you allow air into the drainline? There must be a slit cut up the side of the threaded section, I'm guessing. As long as some air gets into the pipe, it will run silently. The output of the drain line should be about 1/2" to 1" beneath the water level in the first section of your sump.
<b>Sand</b>
Please do read that article before you get too ambitious. You only need a few cups of sand to seed your newly rinsed-out sand. Keeping your livestock in the propagation tank for now is fine, provided you have enough flow and lighting to keep them happy.
<b>Flow</b>
The 10x is the flow in the display. It can be 3x to 5x in the sump section, but the display needs more flow. Some people have 20x flow, 30x flow or more, based specifically on the corals they keep. My reef is around 32x with three VorTechs and my return pump. The pump pushing water into the spraybar will be part of the flow you are counting. So for now, these three are your flow: Spraybar, Closed loop, return pump. What does that add up to?
Most closed loops are exactly what you've described: external plumbing and external pump. Can it fail or leak? Yes, it can. However, most people have decided the risk is acceptable and don't worry too much. Where the closed loop holes are drilled in your tank determines how high the risk is, as well as how well you glued your plumbing and what pump you've chosen to use.
<b>Sump</b>
Your sump makes more sense to me now. I'd like to see your skimmer rest on a small stand, and perhaps you could extend the two pipes coming out of the skimmer into the raw area of sump (originally the skimmer section).
I thought the left end was your ATO section, but that will make a nice refugium zone.
The return section is of a good size. I wish the top off hole wasn't quite so low in the sump, because it is best if you can hear the water being added when it needs topping off. Having an audible sound is very useful to hobbyists, especially if the sound seems to be unending - we begin to think something might be amiss and begin to investigate the situation.
The propagation section doesn't have any reason for water to flow to and from the sump. You will probably need a pump to push water into the plumbing to the propagation tank, and gravity will force old water back into the sump. The way it is now, I don't think you'll have any real water movement between the two vessels. You could pour some PurpleUp in the skimmer section and see if any of that milky white fluid travels into the prop tank unassisted. Since the water level is the same height in both vessels, it will follow the path of least resistance and thus head over to the return section.
I like how you'd planned to share the light with both refugium and prop zones; that was a good idea.
<b>Lighting</b>
This is a very subjective topic, and as you've already indicated, you have several options. I do like the idea you have of putting a 250w bulb in the center, since that is similar to what I've done on my tank (250 - 400 - 250). If you like, the 250w bulb could be a more blue bulb perhaps, like I choose to run. I don't think I would put a 10,000K bulb in there because it will make your 150w bulbs look super dim by comparison.
Having two lights only, leaving the left end shadowed might be interesting for a while, but odds are you'll begin to wish you had light over there as well. VHO lighting will make up for it, but it will still look quite dim.
<b>Electrical</b>
I know it is only temporary, but your 5-way powerstrip looks very dangerous where it is now, as water could easily drip into it.
maroun.c
New member
Thanks for your replies Marc I know these are time consuming.
Plumbing
The idea was to put the SCWD on the 3/4 inch tube and get two 3/4 Eheim flexible tubing out of that. That's ruled out now, I'll just take the 3/4" tubing in the water via the least amount of 45 degrees elbows.
By widestreams I meant 2 pumps that I have one is a Marea that I got from a trip to turkey 3400 Lph or 920 Gph (SEIO replica, the supports even have SEIO written on them) and another Seio that I got from the states I recall it's a 6200. Only problem with the Seio is that it's 110 V Which is easy to deal with however it's 60 HZ and here it's 50 so I don't know if a regular transformer will make it work or If I should just buy another one.
Yes I would cut a slit in the threaded section. As this is not glued I can always make the slit bigger or if it does not work get a new one and make ahole in it with an airline.
Sand
Will read the article and follow it as I don't want to risk things.
Flow
Return pump is an Ocean runner 2500 it does 2500 LPH 675 GPH
Return pump does 4.5x tank volume, after the head loss I guess that would still give at least. It's outpout is actually evenn smaller than a 1/2 inch tube Does this mean it's OK to have two pumps connected to that 3/4 inch tubing?
Will be getting 2 more pumps (Ocean runner or EHEIM) around 3500 LPH 950 GPH each and one will replace the sump return pump if the overflow can handle it without noise or airbubbles. those pumps will be used to feed the closed loop. I already have the partition for the pumps in the tank so no need to put them outside. after head loss and a SCWD I should be getting 1400-1500 GPH out of the two pumps (900 GPH) which means around 10 x tank volume. in addition to the return pump that would make around 13-14 x tank volume. The spray bar behind the rocks will be fed by a 270 GPH powerhead. Don't want to go much stronger on this one to avoid moving the rocks or swifting the sand behind them which can cause rocks to fall. I guess the flow from this spraybar will be quickly absorbed by surrownding rocks and will not contribut too much to tank turnover so I'm not adding it to the calculation.
If all this proves insufficient for soft corals and LPS and few SPS then I will have to add the SEIO or MAREA pump that I have or maybe get me a couple of Koralias when in USA.
Sump
Skimmer was just placed as it fitted and had to be run to filter the water. Will be assembling a glass stand for it and have it rest on it as soon as everything is finalized. The good thing is that I can extend or compress the output boxes if needed. Does this stand have to be siliconed on the bottom of the sump or can I just put it on the bottm of the tank and put the skimmer on it?
Top off hole was meant for a float valve to be put in it I didn't want it to open unless water was really low in the return area. Anyway I can always add an elbow to it from the inside and raise the tubing to the desired level.
Water supply to the prop tank would be from a pump in the skimmer area via the bulkhead on top labelled as supply. I wanted to have tubing from the drain supply it but that would have to make another turn below the metallic stand support then go down to it so a Lot of plumbing and it will take some of the space I need to insert a top off reservoir in the future or a light fixture over the prop tank for now (all excuses for avoiding further plumbing.)
Wish I could have gone with the simultaneous lighting I coulud have gone for mre intense one light and got the same amount of heat as two less intense lights I will use now.
Lighting
Guess I'll go with an additional 250 MH 20k in the middle. do you think I'll suffer from colour casts?
also would that make the addition of T5s not necessary?
Electrical
Totally agree but there are no other options till the wood convers are installed for me to start making the electrical setup. I already have a GFCI and 2 breakers on it but still I agree I should change that as soon as I'm back on wednesday.
Plumbing
The idea was to put the SCWD on the 3/4 inch tube and get two 3/4 Eheim flexible tubing out of that. That's ruled out now, I'll just take the 3/4" tubing in the water via the least amount of 45 degrees elbows.
By widestreams I meant 2 pumps that I have one is a Marea that I got from a trip to turkey 3400 Lph or 920 Gph (SEIO replica, the supports even have SEIO written on them) and another Seio that I got from the states I recall it's a 6200. Only problem with the Seio is that it's 110 V Which is easy to deal with however it's 60 HZ and here it's 50 so I don't know if a regular transformer will make it work or If I should just buy another one.
Yes I would cut a slit in the threaded section. As this is not glued I can always make the slit bigger or if it does not work get a new one and make ahole in it with an airline.
Sand
Will read the article and follow it as I don't want to risk things.
Flow
Return pump is an Ocean runner 2500 it does 2500 LPH 675 GPH
Return pump does 4.5x tank volume, after the head loss I guess that would still give at least. It's outpout is actually evenn smaller than a 1/2 inch tube Does this mean it's OK to have two pumps connected to that 3/4 inch tubing?
Will be getting 2 more pumps (Ocean runner or EHEIM) around 3500 LPH 950 GPH each and one will replace the sump return pump if the overflow can handle it without noise or airbubbles. those pumps will be used to feed the closed loop. I already have the partition for the pumps in the tank so no need to put them outside. after head loss and a SCWD I should be getting 1400-1500 GPH out of the two pumps (900 GPH) which means around 10 x tank volume. in addition to the return pump that would make around 13-14 x tank volume. The spray bar behind the rocks will be fed by a 270 GPH powerhead. Don't want to go much stronger on this one to avoid moving the rocks or swifting the sand behind them which can cause rocks to fall. I guess the flow from this spraybar will be quickly absorbed by surrownding rocks and will not contribut too much to tank turnover so I'm not adding it to the calculation.
If all this proves insufficient for soft corals and LPS and few SPS then I will have to add the SEIO or MAREA pump that I have or maybe get me a couple of Koralias when in USA.
Sump
Skimmer was just placed as it fitted and had to be run to filter the water. Will be assembling a glass stand for it and have it rest on it as soon as everything is finalized. The good thing is that I can extend or compress the output boxes if needed. Does this stand have to be siliconed on the bottom of the sump or can I just put it on the bottm of the tank and put the skimmer on it?
Top off hole was meant for a float valve to be put in it I didn't want it to open unless water was really low in the return area. Anyway I can always add an elbow to it from the inside and raise the tubing to the desired level.
Water supply to the prop tank would be from a pump in the skimmer area via the bulkhead on top labelled as supply. I wanted to have tubing from the drain supply it but that would have to make another turn below the metallic stand support then go down to it so a Lot of plumbing and it will take some of the space I need to insert a top off reservoir in the future or a light fixture over the prop tank for now (all excuses for avoiding further plumbing.)
Wish I could have gone with the simultaneous lighting I coulud have gone for mre intense one light and got the same amount of heat as two less intense lights I will use now.
Lighting
Guess I'll go with an additional 250 MH 20k in the middle. do you think I'll suffer from colour casts?
also would that make the addition of T5s not necessary?
Electrical
Totally agree but there are no other options till the wood convers are installed for me to start making the electrical setup. I already have a GFCI and 2 breakers on it but still I agree I should change that as soon as I'm back on wednesday.
melev
Well-known member
<b>Plumbing</b>
Two pumps going to one 3/4" line? Seems like the pumps will move more water than the inner diameter can handle, thus you'll reach a maximum amount of movement even if the pumps can in fact move more water than that. I don't recall the total GPH that fit through 3/4" ID pipe.
<b>Flow</b>
Spraybars for the most part don't work all that well. They clog up over time, and move some water but usually the hobbyist removes them after a while, or gives up on them. It still counts towards your flow, but it won't be noteworthy.
<b>Sump</b>
The skimmer stand is just a loose item. It doesn't need to be a sealed box nor does it need to be glued to your sump.
ATO - Making the water trickle into the return section is the best idea. I would only have the water level about 2" below the refugium baffle, and your top off line should be above that water height to avoid back siphoning, something you mentioned already.
Pump - Good, glad to know you planned to push water to the prop section.
<b>Lighting</b>
Odds are you'll still want the T5 lighting for the actinic photoperiod. It is appealing to the eyes both in the early hours and in the late evening, and it does add some nice blue to your MH lighting.
I don't think you'll see a huge color demarkation with the 250w 20,000K bulb in the center. To me, that looks like the spot the sun is pouring into my tank, sandwiched with 10,000K bulbs on either side.
<b>Electrical</b>
Just flipping that powerstrip over, or covering it with some plastic akin to a tarp is a way to avoid an incident.
Two pumps going to one 3/4" line? Seems like the pumps will move more water than the inner diameter can handle, thus you'll reach a maximum amount of movement even if the pumps can in fact move more water than that. I don't recall the total GPH that fit through 3/4" ID pipe.
<b>Flow</b>
Spraybars for the most part don't work all that well. They clog up over time, and move some water but usually the hobbyist removes them after a while, or gives up on them. It still counts towards your flow, but it won't be noteworthy.
<b>Sump</b>
The skimmer stand is just a loose item. It doesn't need to be a sealed box nor does it need to be glued to your sump.
ATO - Making the water trickle into the return section is the best idea. I would only have the water level about 2" below the refugium baffle, and your top off line should be above that water height to avoid back siphoning, something you mentioned already.
Pump - Good, glad to know you planned to push water to the prop section.
<b>Lighting</b>
Odds are you'll still want the T5 lighting for the actinic photoperiod. It is appealing to the eyes both in the early hours and in the late evening, and it does add some nice blue to your MH lighting.
I don't think you'll see a huge color demarkation with the 250w 20,000K bulb in the center. To me, that looks like the spot the sun is pouring into my tank, sandwiched with 10,000K bulbs on either side.
<b>Electrical</b>
Just flipping that powerstrip over, or covering it with some plastic akin to a tarp is a way to avoid an incident.
maroun.c
New member
Yep I think its because we're discussing all aspects in one go. Overall I believe this was a very informative page with great answers from Marc. I do believe I'm all set now to finish this tank as soon as I have the woodwork done.
Marc
Spent some time on your website looking for the Sand cleaning articles which I bleieve I had read in the past. ended up reaning many articles which were very informative.
I guess its easier than what I expected as I was expecting to have to bleach the sand then rinse it a lot and aerate it for a couple of days...
guess this makes things easier.
Marc
Spent some time on your website looking for the Sand cleaning articles which I bleieve I had read in the past. ended up reaning many articles which were very informative.
I guess its easier than what I expected as I was expecting to have to bleach the sand then rinse it a lot and aerate it for a couple of days...
guess this makes things easier.
melev
Well-known member
I'm glad it helped. Rinsing it out thoroughly is all you have to do, but do rinse it well. My sand was rinsed out by a friend for my 280g, and I don't know if he was as meticulous as I am. A year into running my reef, I took out the sand out of my refugium to wash it and it was unreal how much waste has accumulated in that zone. I was rinsing it out at 3 a.m. and was sore for several days because the refugium is so far out of reach. It was very odd to drag a garden hose into the fishroom to blast out that compartment, but I wanted it to be as clean as possible. I then pumps out as much tap water as possible to keep my reef safe from those typical impurities.
In your case, you don't have to worry about that and can just focus on getting your sand very clean, then add it to your tank. Remember that sand and rock will displace water, so siphon some out of the system before you begin to avoid overflowing your sump.
In your case, you don't have to worry about that and can just focus on getting your sand very clean, then add it to your tank. Remember that sand and rock will displace water, so siphon some out of the system before you begin to avoid overflowing your sump.
maroun.c
New member
Marc just checked your last post.
Man you do type fast
as I said I guess I have it all covered for now Thanks for your detailed answers. Can't wait to be back home in two days and hoping the staining will be finsihed within this week before Easter long week end.
More updates on the changes as soon as I have any.
Man you do type fast
as I said I guess I have it all covered for now Thanks for your detailed answers. Can't wait to be back home in two days and hoping the staining will be finsihed within this week before Easter long week end.
More updates on the changes as soon as I have any.
maroun.c
New member
LOL Chrismunn.
As for this weeks long week end it's because its Easter for the Orthodox this week. It's a national holiday here and fraiday and next monday will be a day off. which means that If I don't get my stand covers and canopy on thursday I will not get them before Monday.
As for te pipes connection between the tanks its ver easy, Will take a beter angle view of it when I'm back.
Basically a small pump in the skimmer section will take water from that section via the bulkhead on top of the prop tank labeled supply. this will cause the water level in the prop tank to rise and flow back by gravity. I have two holes in the lower part of the side wall of the prop tank, one of them is conected to a lower hole inthe skimmer section and the second is connected to a hole in the UPPER part of the skimmer section. water will get higher than the high hole in that section and drain back by gravity. Why were these made this way? will my intention was to use to wholes for supply and return to a reactor but when one hole was not enough to return water from the prop tank and raised the water too much I cancelled that idea and tried multiple ways of connecting the tubing to be able to andle around 500gph eventhough I was going to rund only aroud 100. this way I have a safety margins if one hole is blocked. Hope this clears it up
As for this weeks long week end it's because its Easter for the Orthodox this week. It's a national holiday here and fraiday and next monday will be a day off. which means that If I don't get my stand covers and canopy on thursday I will not get them before Monday.
As for te pipes connection between the tanks its ver easy, Will take a beter angle view of it when I'm back.
Basically a small pump in the skimmer section will take water from that section via the bulkhead on top of the prop tank labeled supply. this will cause the water level in the prop tank to rise and flow back by gravity. I have two holes in the lower part of the side wall of the prop tank, one of them is conected to a lower hole inthe skimmer section and the second is connected to a hole in the UPPER part of the skimmer section. water will get higher than the high hole in that section and drain back by gravity. Why were these made this way? will my intention was to use to wholes for supply and return to a reactor but when one hole was not enough to return water from the prop tank and raised the water too much I cancelled that idea and tried multiple ways of connecting the tubing to be able to andle around 500gph eventhough I was going to rund only aroud 100. this way I have a safety margins if one hole is blocked. Hope this clears it up
