Matrix (and siporax) questions, to keep from derailing Sahin's thread.....

Mael said:
ok maybe Im missing something, if it is effective in a reactor as others have shown, and the reactor doesnt empty during a power outage, the matrix would be in the same conditions during a power outtage in the reactor as it would if placed/hung in the sump correct? It would still be submersed in water with no flow in both cases. I do see there may be an advantage to sump use over reactor in an outtage simply due to the increased water volume in the sump may be able to provide the aerobic bacteria with o2 longer than in the small space of the reactor.
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I think you pretty much summed it all up. I have less rock in my display so part of my matrix is being used to utilize the beneficial aerobic bacteria. The question that I have is if all the nitrifying bacteria does die within the reactor what effect will it have on the denitrifying bacteria within the reactor or main tank (if given that you have a substantial amount of nitrifying bacteria present). If given it does affect the life of the denitrifying bacteria and you carbon dose then I see a potential problem. I'm no expert here just giving some thoughts.
 
Giovanni said:
Limiting the water flow, thus O2 to the matrix in a reactor is to help promote anaerobic bacteria..
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Sort of. I think the only way the denitrification is becoming present is by using the matrix pond which is much larger than the matrix. This allows a further distance between the surface of the media to its core compared to the regular matrix. I don't think the reactors flow is really the driving factor causing the denitrification process to occur (given that you don't blast the media with to much flow) as much as it is the size in the media that the reactor is using.
 
Mael said:
Not sure why having the bag in direct line of water flow would cause anh increase in nitrates.
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I view my drain water as waste water. Given the porousness of the media I think it would be better having a filter sock and skimmer absorb some of that waste to reduce the amount that may be absorbed by your matrix. I'm not saying your nitrates are going to be through the roof. I just think down the road you may have a hard time trying to maintain a very low nitrate level. If carbon dosing is taken into account than I cannot comment as I don't really know.
 
KingTriton1 said:
Sort of. I think the only way the denitrification is becoming present is by using the matrix pond which is much larger than the matrix. This allows a further distance between the surface of the media to its core compared to the regular matrix. I don't think the reactors flow is really the driving factor causing the denitrification process to occur (given that you don't blast the media with to much flow) as much as it is the size in the media that the reactor is using.
Click to expand...

Reefvet actually tested matrix as well as siporax and a few others. He mentioned that the pond matrix version is not what you want. If you dig through the last 3 or 4 pages of Sahin's tank thread, he goes into more detail there.
 
from what i heard the pond matrix is a different material than matrix and de*nitrate(which I believe are just different sizes of the same material?)

The drain sediment does make sense, I think my saving grace is the constant flow doesnt allow anything to settle in the matrix, it settles only in 2 corners of that chamber, but it may be getting some finer particles into the matrix from that initial blast of water...I might move it to the third chamber.

I like all the different input in this thread, makes you rethink ideas and methods of your own and possibly improve.
 
Mael said:
from what i heard the pond matrix is a different material than matrix and de*nitrate(which I believe are just different sizes of the same material?)
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I have both Matrix and Matrix Pond and can't tell any difference between the two other than the size. I'd be surprise to see this.

Mael said:
I like all the different input in this thread, makes you rethink ideas and methods of your own and possibly improve.
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Exactly :thumbsup:
 
pstank1 said:
Reefvet actually tested matrix as well as siporax and a few others. He mentioned that the pond matrix version is not what you want. If you dig through the last 3 or 4 pages of Sahin's tank thread, he goes into more detail there.
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This.

I'm fairly certain that reefvet completed these tests in a laboratory environment with sophisticated equipment. He didn't just bring home some media and plop it in the tank. The denitrification that is occurring is unquestionably a direct factor of the flow within a reactor.

To those that don't run their media in a reactor; it's not necessary. You will however yield increased efficiency (denitrification per specified volume of media), along with more consistent results.
 
KingTriton1 said:
That is correct. I'm not saying that it isn't effective in a reactor by any means.
Click to expand...

KingTriton1 said:
Sort of. I think the only way the denitrification is becoming present is by using the matrix pond which is much larger than the matrix. This allows a further distance between the surface of the media to its core compared to the regular matrix. I don't think the reactors flow is really the driving factor causing the denitrification process to occur (given that you don't blast the media with to much flow) as much as it is the size in the media that the reactor is using.
Click to expand...

pstank1 said:
Reefvet actually tested matrix as well as siporax and a few others. He mentioned that the pond matrix version is not what you want. If you dig through the last 3 or 4 pages of Sahin's tank thread, he goes into more detail there.
Click to expand...

This.

I'm fairly certain that reefvet completed these tests in a laboratory environment with sophisticated equipment. He didn't just bring home some media and plop it in the tank. The denitrification that is occurring is unquestionably a direct factor of the flow within a reactor.

To those that don't run their media in a reactor; it's not necessary. You will however yield increased efficiency (denitrification per specified volume of media), along with more consistent results.

Additionally, the ability for these types of media to sustain a relevant amount of denitrifying bacteria is dependent on pore size, not depth of the pores. This is where Matrix and Siporax excel; because they have chosen a product with the correct pore size, they don't need extra pore depth to compensate (something that is necessary for denitrification within live rock). Pond Matrix and Matrix are the same material, just different sizes. The most you could argue is that you have fewer pores per total volume of Pond Matrix than Matrix. Directly from SeaChem's site:

Generally, with very large pore diameters, we have smaller specific surface area, so that is not good. This generally rules out pores above 10 microns in diameter......
 
naterealbig said:
Additionally, the ability for these types of media to sustain a relevant amount of denitrifying bacteria is dependent on pore size, not depth of the pores. This is where Matrix and Siporax excel; because they have chosen a product with the correct pore size, they don't need extra pore depth to compensate (something that is necessary for denitrification within live rock).
Click to expand...

Good information here. I believe this is where the clarification was needed on my end. (viewing the media as if it were operating as same way as live rock)
 
My MATRIX in a HOB refugiun that is hanging in the back of my "20G refugium full of macros".


Matrix in a recently made DIY media reactor:
 
I can pick up the 15mm stuff for about $10 a Liter shipped to my door, but I have to buy 50L. Anyone want to split some with me?
 
For those interested in efficacy and pricing: Reefvet said that through his tests that (if I recall correctly) Siporax has approximately 25x the anaerobic area of live rock. A close second was the Matrix, at approximately 20x the area. I mention this, because I just purchased 5 gallons of Matrix through Amazon for $100 with free shipping. That's 5x less than Siporax, so much more anaerobic bacteria growth per $.

I will say that the Matrix is irregularly shaped and smaller than Siporax, and cannot be utilized with egg crate alone. Another layer will have to be used in conjunction; perhaps the plastic material used for stitching with yarn (unsure the name). This or a reactor (which I'm inclined to use), which may negate the cost savings of the Matrix.

Just some thoughts....
 
naterealbig said:
I will say that the Matrix is irregularly shaped and smaller than Siporax, and cannot be utilized with egg crate alone. Another layer will have to be used in conjunction; perhaps the plastic material used for stitching with yarn (unsure the name). This or a reactor (which I'm inclined to use), which may negate the cost savings of the Matrix..
Click to expand...

Exactly what made the Siporax more appealing to me. I find reactors always accumulate debris which requires removal and disassembly to clean. Since most of the filth ends up on the bottom of the reactor all the media needs to come out for a proper cleaning. The egg crate box, on the other hand, can be kept clean simply by moving the media by hand and letting the water flow move accumulated debris back on its way. Just a theory at the moment as I just built and installed my box and Siporax on Sunday :idea:
 
M007 said:
Exactly what made the Siporax more appealing to me. I find reactors always accumulate debris which requires removal and disassembly to clean. Since most of the filth ends up on the bottom of the reactor all the media needs to come out for a proper cleaning. The egg crate box, on the other hand, can be kept clean simply by moving the media by hand and letting the water flow move accumulated debris back on its way. Just a theory at the moment as I just built and installed my box and Siporax on Sunday :idea:
Click to expand...

You can use media bags to have your Matrix on it. See posting # 93 and this picture.


Matrix is in 4 media bags. The floor is black egg crate

When you want to clean it just take out the media bags, wash them is salt water and return it back.
 
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